Being saved and the 10 commandments

[Darrell C]

Some may be tempted to think of Christ as a "legalist" when they read Mark 7 because it sounds so much like the New Covenant of Jer 31:31-33 - but Christ is not preaching salvation by Works --

[FONT=&quot]Mark 7

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.
8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
10 For Moses said, Honour thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
11 But ye say, If a man shall say to his father or mother, It is Corban, that is to say, a gift, by whatsoever thou mightest be profited by me; he shall be free.
12 And ye suffer him no more to do ought for his father or his mother;
13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.


[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]When Christ speaks of one of the Ten Commandments He tells us that they are the “Word of God” – the “Commandment of God” and “Moses said”

The Law accomplishes condemnation for the lost.

[FONT=&quot]But for the sa[FONT=&quot]ved - it i[FONT=&quot]s written on the mind and heart. The very part of the New Covenant most reje[FONT=&quot]cted by some and accepted by others.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

[/FONT]

Sorry, but that does not sound like the New Covenant, and could not be because it was still an Old Testament Economy Christ was under:


Galatians 4:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.


We also see that here:


Luke 16:27-31

King James Version (KJV)

27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:

28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.

31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Consider why Abraham does not say "They can hear the Gospel of Jesus Christ?"

Because it was not revealed in that Age.

Christ redeemed men from the Law, not into a better version of it.

That is why it is called the New Covenant.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

You will need to show regeneration under Old Testament Economies in order for the point you seek to make here to be valid.

Moses and Elijah in glorified form with Christ transfigured in Matt 17?

Or Christ insisting pre-cross that any Bible teaching in Israel should already know about the new Birth and salvation in John 3?

or "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7?

Or "They all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4

or "RESTORE to me the joy of salvation and take not Thy Holy Spirit From ME" Ps 51

or ALL the saints of the OT as in Heb 11???

or "I put My SPIRIT within you"?

And you're not going to be able to do that.

Because people here think there is "another gospel" preached in the OT by God?

 

[Darrell C]

[FONT=&quot]1 John 5
"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him.
2By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 1 John 5:1-3[/FONT]



I usually quote 1-4 of that chapter - but 5 is great too - I was just trying to keep the text volume down since some are adverse to reading.

Do you think vs 5 changes the entire chapter??

If so "how"??

in Christ,

Bob

You lose the immediate context where regeneration is attributed to believing on Jesus Christ.

This is separate from works Christians are saved unto, and negates the doctrine of works to maintain salvation.

As it was promised that God would put His Spirit within us that we might walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, we understand we are enabled to do so due to the indwelling Spirit.

By quoting the first three by themselves there is without question an emphasis on keeping His commandments but we are left without the knowledge that we do so because we are born again. Rather than this being a "If/Then" proposition as we see in the Law, and much of the Old Testament.

The New Covenant was prompted by man's failure to obey, and promise of that began in the Garden, as I am sure you are aware of.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

You lose the immediate context where regeneration is attributed to believing on Jesus Christ.

This is separate from works Christians are saved unto, and negates the doctrine of works to maintain salvation.

As it was promised that God would put His Spirit within us that we might walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, we understand we are enabled to do so due to the indwelling Spirit.

True --- but I don't see where there is a problem.

By quoting the first three by themselves there is without question an emphasis on keeping His commandments but we are left without the knowledge that we do so because we are born again.

I never read that idea of obedience without the new birth into 1John 5:1-4. I did not know anyone else was doing that either.

Rather than this being a "If/Then" proposition as we see in the Law, and much of the Old Testament.

The New Covenant was prompted by man's failure to obey, and promise of that began in the Garden, as I am sure you are aware of.


God bless.

Gal 3 and Romans 3 make it clear that for the lost - the law can only condemn.

In Romans 8 and Romans 6 (and many other chapters like 1John 5) we see that for the saved - the Law is written on the heart.

In Romans 8:4-9 there is a contrast between the lost person that "does not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" vs the saved who walk by the Spirit and are walking in obedience just as was also stated in Romans 6.

The Law has two contexts - one for the lost and one for the saved.

In all cases it defines sin - but for the lost it also points them to their need of a Savior - their need to accept the Gospel.

For the saved the Law is the new way of thinking and acting - written on the heart - magnifying the Law - the Commandments written on stone -- internalized into the new Creation - the New Nature.

(BTW - I much prefer the conversations that do not include all the obligatory name-calling. thanks! )

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post

You will need to show regeneration under Old Testament Economies in order for the point you seek to make here to be valid.

Moses and Elijah in glorified form with Christ transfigured in Matt 17?

Not really possible that Moses and Elijah were glorified...Christ is the first to be glorified:


Colossians 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And "from" is ek. Pretty dogmatic, I would say.


1 Corinthians 15:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Christ made it very clear the Life He came to bring was different than that which man had until then. He went so far as to say...


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


No man had Eternal Life before Faith in the Cross of Christ, and no man was Glorified prior to the Resurrection of Christ.

Or Christ insisting pre-cross that any Bible teaching in Israel should already know about the new Birth and salvation in John 3?

Yes, Nicodemus should have known precisely what the Lord meant:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



Not...


John 3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

or "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7?

That was the Gospel to the extent it was revealed to Abraham:


Galatians 3

King James Version (KJV)

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.


But Abraham no more had knowledge of Christ our Lord having died on the Cross than David did. He did not place specific faith in the Cross, he only knew that God would bless all families of the earth through him.

Or "They all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4

Is it not understood that Christ is God?

So find where Christ was revealed to these people who the Writer of Hebrews, who also said they received the gospel, said were unbelievers and faithless?


Hebrews 3:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.



Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

41Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.



You are not going to find the revealed Gospel of Jesus Christ, and you are not going to find regenerated Saints.

or "RESTORE to me the joy of salvation and take not Thy Holy Spirit From ME" Ps 51

Think about that..."Take not thy Spirit from me?"

Kind of stands in direct contradiction to the promised Eternal Spirit, doesn't it?

or "I put My SPIRIT within you"?

Only A promise in regards to the Eternal Indwelling.

The Holy Spirit's Ministry is taught by Christ to radically change when the Comforter was sent.


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


The eternal indwelling is the very process by which regeneration takes place:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


The renewing of the Holy Spirit speaks, I believe, of the reconciliation that is afforded through the Cross.

In other words, it is not referring to we being "renewed," but the restoration of spiritual union directly with God.

We have a new heart and spirit because of the Indwelling.

And you're not going to be able to do that.

Because people here think there is "another gospel" preached in the OT by God?

Not so much "another" gospel, but the Gospel in limited revelation.

Despite passages such as Isaiah 53 the people were clueless. Christ's own disciples, who sat under Him for some three years...rejected the notion of Christ dying.

This...


1 Corinthians 2

King James Version (KJV)


4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.


Is often thought to present the glory of Heaven, but I suggest to you it presents the Glory of Christ, which was not known. Take a look at the quoted passage and see if you don't agree.

The Gospel of Christ was not revealed unto men, even in Christ's Ministry. That is why we can see Peter in opposition to the Gospel itself.

Consider:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

And you're not going to be able to do that.

Because people here think there is "another gospel" preached in the OT by God?

Well, there is Another Spirit, isn't there?

Men were not without a Comforter in Christ's Day, but that He would send Another cannot be denied.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

Moses and Elijah in glorified form with Christ transfigured in Matt 17?

Or Christ insisting pre-cross that any Bible teaching in Israel should already know about the new Birth and salvation in John 3?

or "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7?

Or "They all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4

or "RESTORE to me the joy of salvation and take not Thy Holy Spirit From ME" Ps 51

or ALL the saints of the OT as in Heb 11???

or "I put My SPIRIT within you"?

Because people here think there is "another gospel" preached in the OT by God?

Not really possible that Moses and Elijah were glorified...Christ is the first to be glorified:


Colossians 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And "from" is ek. Pretty dogmatic, I would say.


1 Corinthians 15:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ the man - was no more the first person to be glorified because of that text than he was the first person be created because of Rev 1.

Christ as eternal God was glorified from all eternity past.

In John 17 Christ said that He was returning to the Father to the glory that he HAD with the Father before His birth.

So the text in Matt 17 is correct - Moses and Elijah are in the same form as Christ - fully glorified - having glorified bodies --

Matt 17
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.


Peter is so floored by what he sees he wants to make THREE memorials - three tabernacles.



The disciples are face-down in the dirt - but Moses and Elijah are in glorified form speaking with Christ who is himself fully transfigured in glorified form.


These are not lost or unconverted or super-holy-but-not-born-again lost persons

Christ made it very clear the Life He came to bring was different than that which man had until then. He went so far as to say...


John 6:53

King James Version (KJV)

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


No man had Eternal Life before Faith in the Cross of Christ, and no man was Glorified prior to the Resurrection of Christ.

The text does not say that.

Yes, Nicodemus should have known precisely what the Lord meant:


Ezekiel 36:22-27

King James Version (KJV)

22 Therefore say unto the house of Israel, thus saith the Lord God; I do not this for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went.

23 And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

[FONT=&quot]Gal 1:6-11 There has been "only ONE Gospel" in both OT and NT - hint being born again is a key part of that Gospel. Heb 4:2 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Spirit filled men of the OT "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" 1Pet 1:11.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ps 51:11 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]take not your Holy Spirit from me[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 11:19-20 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A New heart" a "new Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" put within.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 63:10 Israel [/FONT][FONT=&quot]grieved God's "Holy Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]".[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Haggai 2:5 "My Holy Spirit abiding IN your midst"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 51:7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In their heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was written the Law of God -[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ps 37:31 - "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Law of God IS IN his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Deut 6:6 God's Word "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]in your heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 2:28-29 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... circumcision is that which is of the heart by the Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]

Hence all the OT saints and even "Righteousness which is by faith" in Heb 11 regarding those OT saints.

"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8.

The OT gospel saved - born-again, righeousness by faith and Moses and Elijah fully glorified in Matt 17 - with Christ so much so that Peter wants to make THREE tabernacles -- though face down in the dirt before them.

But Abraham no more had knowledge of Christ our Lord having died on the Cross than David did. He did not place specific faith in the Cross, he only knew that God would bless all families of the earth through him.

The bible does not say that.

"Abraham SAW My DAY and was glad" John 8.

Gal 1:6-9 "only ONE Gospel"
Gal 3:7 THAT Gospel was "preached to Abraham"

Same book, same Author, same subject.

Is it not understood that Christ is God?

It is which makes Him all that much more present and in-person God in the OT

"Seeking of whom the SPIRIT OF CHRIST WITHIN THEM was speaking"

So find where Christ was revealed to these people who the Writer of Hebrews, who also said they received the gospel, said were unbelievers and faithless?

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12 It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

Think about that..."Take not thy Spirit from me?"

Kind of stands in direct contradiction to the promised Eternal Spirit, doesn't it?

1Thess 5 - "Do not quench the Spirit" -- do not "GRIEVE" the Spirit.

AS they did.

 

[BobRyan]

Heb 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

 

[BobRyan]

Gen 6
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Gen 5
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.


Heb 11
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

 

[BobRyan]

Once you grasp the full depravity of the lost condition as is seen in Romans 3 -- it is clear that the Heb 11 saints And Gen 5 and 6 saints - are born-again believers - or else - you have "another gospel".

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
You lose the immediate context where regeneration is attributed to believing on Jesus Christ.

This is separate from works Christians are saved unto, and negates the doctrine of works to maintain salvation.

As it was promised that God would put His Spirit within us that we might walk in His statutes and keep His judgments, we understand we are enabled to do so due to the indwelling Spirit.

True --- but I don't see where there is a problem.

I hope I can bring it out in this post.

Understanding that God will judge every man, lost or saved, according to the revelation provided them...has helped me a great deal in understanding Scripture in a broader sense.

Revelation has been progressive and each Age will hold a certain level of accountability.

See the difference between those under Law who rejected the revelation and those who reject the revelation of Jesus Christ:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


The contrast is very clear.

By quoting the first three by themselves there is without question an emphasis on keeping His commandments but we are left without the knowledge that we do so because we are born again.

I never read that idea of obedience without the new birth into 1John 5:1-4. I did not know anyone else was doing that either.

Now tell me this...


1 John 5:1-3

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.


...does not indicate we are born again by keeping His commandments.

But this...


1 John 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


...makes it clear we overcome the world through faith.

Let's see these two together, secluded:


1 John 5:1&5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.


5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Whosoever believeth. And these are the ones who will find that His commandments are not grievous. But the works follow salvation. And the works do not maintain salvation, as regeneration is nowhere in Scripture shown to be reversible. That would nullify the concept of Eternal Salvation.

Rather than this being a "If/Then" proposition as we see in the Law, and much of the Old Testament.

The New Covenant was prompted by man's failure to obey, and promise of that began in the Garden, as I am sure you are aware of.


God bless.

Gal 3 and Romans 3 make it clear that for the lost - the law can only condemn.

Not just for the lost.

You understand that Christians are still under the physical death penalty overtly written in the Law, right?


1 Corinthians 11:27-30

King James Version (KJV)

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.

29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.


You remember Ananias and Sapphira, right?

Nothing has changed in regards to God's view of sin.

What has changed is the revelation of the Gospel of Christ which now, in retrospect, we can see in the Law and the Prophets. We understand better than any Old Testament Prophet...what they were writing.


1 Peter 1:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

In Romans 8 and Romans 6 (and many other chapters like 1John 5) we see that for the saved - the Law is written on the heart.

For the unsaved as well:


Romans 2:14-15

King James Version (KJV)

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


But we do not equate general revelation which is given to every man entering this world with the revelation of the Gospel of Christ which was a Mystery until the appointed time.


Colossians 1:25-27

King James Version (KJV)

25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;

26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:


Christ in you, my friend:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

In Romans 8:4-9 there is a contrast between the lost person that "does not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed CAN they" vs the saved who walk by the Spirit and are walking in obedience just as was also stated in Romans 6.

Not sure why that would be relevant, lol. We are talking about believers under the New Covenant.

The Law has two contexts - one for the lost and one for the saved.

Sorry, no. That is like teaching two Gospels. THat is just how I see it.

God is consistent. What He said in the Old Testament remains true today.

The difference is what HE has commanded...who.

The Law was specific to Israel, not gentile fellows like me, and I assume like you.

We would not even be able to enter the shadow of the presence of God if that were still in effect.

In all cases it defines sin - but for the lost it also points them to their need of a Savior - their need to accept the Gospel.

But the Law did not point to Christ but in figure.

That is what the Writer of Hebrews has to explain to His brethren.


Hebrews 6:1-2

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


The Law contained the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ. The Writer wanted to expound Christ from them.

And we are not to lay again the foundational principles, but go on to completion which is found in Christ.

For the saved the Law is the new way of thinking and acting - written on the heart - magnifying the Law - the Commandments written on stone -- internalized into the new Creation - the New Nature.

Not at all, because even the unregenerate did, and still do...embrace and practice the Law. The Hebrew brethren of the writer of Hebrews were exhorted not to follow the same example of the unbelievers who fell in the Provocation.

(BTW - I much prefer the conversations that do not include all the obligatory name-calling. thanks! )

in Christ,

Bob

You've always had a civil manner, Bob, and I am appreciative myself.

Keep up the good work.


God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

How did God forgive, save, send His Spirit - etc before the cross??

"God sees that which does not yet exist - as though it did".

Romans 4:17
17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

 

[Darrell C]

Once you grasp the full depravity of the lost condition as is seen in Romans 3 -- it is clear that the Heb 11 saints And Gen 5 and 6 saints - are born-again believers - or else - you have "another gospel".

No, you have saints who were not made perfect:


Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.




What do you think the Writer refers to here? The same perfection he speaks of throughout the book.

We see the Old Testament saints mentioned as being made perfect:


Hebrews 12:18-24

King James Version (KJV)


18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake)


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


I have put the contrast in two colors: red for the Covenant of Law, green for the New Covenant.

That there was a dramatic change with the establishing of the New Covenant cannot be denied. The Writer constantly contrasts the Two Covenants.


Hebrews 8:6-8

King James Version (KJV)

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:


There was no regeneration under the First Covenant, or any Covenant that preceded that.

I have briefly seen your post and look forward to responding to it, most responses are usually a little boring, but it looks like you have put in a little more effort than most do.

But I am out of time.

I will leave you with one question: can a man be born again and not eternally indwelt by God?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

How did God forgive, save, send His Spirit - etc before the cross??

"God sees that which does not yet exist - as though it did".

Romans 4:17
17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did;

(don't tell my wife I started a new post...)

Atonement is pretty well defined in the Law, Bob, I would think you would acknowledge how forgiveness was received.

But consider:


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


This is why the Old Testament saints were not made perfect, because they died...still in need of the Atonement.

Now I am not saying people were not saved, but that they were not regenerate. Big difference. David was as assured of his salvation as we, but that does not mean he entered into God's presence when he died, for the writer tells us:


Hebrews 9:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Now I would just challenge you, my friend, to spend a little time in chs.9-10, and see if you can see where he states that Christ opened up the way for us to come into the Holiest of All...Heaven. The reason is due to the fact that Christ established Eternal Redemption which is contrasted with the temporal redemption and remission of sins afforded the Old Testament Saint.

And I have to get going. Tried the "It is not meet that I should leave the Word of God" excuse but it isn't working, so I'll see you in the next round.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Originally Posted by BobRyan View Post
Moses and Elijah in glorified form with Christ transfigured in Matt 17?

Or Christ insisting pre-cross that any Bible teaching in Israel should already know about the new Birth and salvation in John 3?

or "The Gospel was preached to Abraham" Gal 3:7?

Or "They all drank from the same Spiritual ROCK and that Rock was Christ" 1Cor 10:4

or "RESTORE to me the joy of salvation and take not Thy Holy Spirit From ME" Ps 51

or ALL the saints of the OT as in Heb 11???

or "I put My SPIRIT within you"?

Because people here think there is "another gospel" preached in the OT by God?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darrell C View Post
Not really possible that Moses and Elijah were glorified...Christ is the first to be glorified:


Colossians 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

And "from" is ek. Pretty dogmatic, I would say.


1 Corinthians 15:22-23

King James Version (KJV)

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Christ the man - was no more the first person to be glorified because of that text than he was the first person be created because of Rev 1.

It is very clear, He is the Firstborn out of the dead. He is the Firstfruits.


Notice Adam gave death to every man, and Christ gave Life.


"Firstborn" is used to signify rank but this rank is being the First from, out of...the dead.

Christ as eternal God was glorified from all eternity past.

No, Bob, the Son of God was not Christ from all eternity past:


Philippians 2:5-10

King James Version (KJV)

5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;


God was not a man for all of eternity past.

There was a point in time when God fashioned His body in the womb of Mary, He was born, He lived, died, and rose again, being the First to not die after being resurrected.

That is because He was resurrected in glorified form.

In John 17 Christ said that He was returning to the Father to the glory that he HAD with the Father before His birth.

So was He human before His birth?

Was He returning to a human glory? Or was He returning to His proper Realm?

This suggests eternality for man, who is a created being. Christ partook of our nature, and began something that had never been seen before: glorified man. That we will be like Him does not mean we will be like gods, but that we will be glorified even as He was.

So the text in Matt 17 is correct - Moses and Elijah are in the same form as Christ - fully glorified - having glorified bodies --

Matt 17
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

And their proposal was rejected, because only God is to be worshipped:


Matthew 17:3-9

King James Version (KJV)

3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.

4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.

6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.

7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.

8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Glorification does not take place until after death. Christ had not died yet, thus was not glorified.

Now watch this Bob, this is pretty clear:


John 7:38-40

King James Version (KJV)

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.


John 6 makes it clear that the "believing" required for eternal life is faith in Christ's death. Here we see that Christ is not glorified because He has not gone to the Cross yet. Here we see that Christ is speaking of the same Spirit, the Comforter, that He taught them of in John 14-16.

The rivers of living water represent eternal life. That would come only...

...after Christ was glorified, and after He sent the Comforter.

The text is very clear, and when we correlate all relevant teachings the only reasonable conclusion is that men were not born again before Pentecost, because to consider that one could be born again without the Source of eternal life, the Eternal Indwelling Spirit of God (as contrasted by Christ with the external ministry He performed in Old Testament Economies)...is not Biblically possible.

If a man have not the Spirit of Christ (and remember He said "I will come to you")...he does not belong to God. He does not have eternal life, because he does not have the Source, which is the True Bread Christ speaks about in John 6.


Continued...

 

[BobRyan]

I will go through your posts in more detail later today - but for now

1. The following posts show that the saints of the OT were saved and proof beyond all doubt is in Matt 17.

2. The Bible only has two states for the living, lost or saved. There is no still-lost-but-kinda-saved in the Bible.

3. There is no purgatory - and no second chance after death to get saved Heb 9 "Appointed to man once to die and then judgment"

4. In man's lost depraved state he "does not please God" and "does not seek after God" Romans 3.

Christ the man - was no more the first person to be glorified because of that text than he was the first person be created because of Rev 1.

Christ as eternal God was glorified from all eternity past.

In John 17 Christ said that He was returning to the Father to the glory that he HAD with the Father before His birth.

So the text in Matt 17 is correct - Moses and Elijah are in the same form as Christ - fully glorified - having glorified bodies --

Matt 17
2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

Peter is so floored by what he sees he wants to make THREE memorials - three tabernacles.

The disciples are face-down in the dirt - but Moses and Elijah are in glorified form speaking with Christ who is himself fully transfigured in glorified form.


These are not lost or unconverted or super-holy-but-not-born-again lost persons

[FONT=&quot]Gal 1:6-11 There has been "only ONE Gospel" in both OT and NT - hint being born again is a key part of that Gospel. Heb 4:2 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Gospel was preached to US just as it was to THEM also[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Spirit filled men of the OT "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" 1Pet 1:11.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ps 51:11 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]take not your Holy Spirit from me[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 11:19-20 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A New heart" a "new Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" put within.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 63:10 Israel [/FONT][FONT=&quot]grieved God's "Holy Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]".[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Haggai 2:5 "My Holy Spirit abiding IN your midst"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 51:7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In their heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was written the Law of God -[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ps 37:31 - "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Law of God IS IN his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Deut 6:6 God's Word "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]in your heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 2:28-29 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... circumcision is that which is of the heart by the Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]

Hence all the OT saints and even "Righteousness which is by faith" in Heb 11 regarding those OT saints.

"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8.

The OT gospel saved - born-again, righeousness by faith and Moses and Elijah fully glorified in Matt 17 - with Christ so much so that Peter wants to make THREE tabernacles -- though face down in the dirt before them.



"Abraham SAW My DAY and was glad" John 8.

Gal 1:6-9 "only ONE Gospel"
Gal 3:7 THAT Gospel was "preached to Abraham"

Same book, same Author, same subject.

It is which makes Him all that much more present and in-person God in the OT

"Seeking of whom the SPIRIT OF CHRIST WITHIN THEM was speaking"

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. 12It was revealed to them that they were not serving themselves, but you, in these things which now have been announced to you through those who preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things into which angels long to look.

1Thess 5 - "Do not quench the Spirit" -- do not "GRIEVE" the Spirit.

AS they did.

Heb 11
1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
2 For by it the elders obtained a good report.
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.
6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
7 By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

Gen 6
9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.

Gen 5
21 Enoch lived sixty-five years, and begot Methuselah. 22 After he begot Methuselah, Enoch walked with God three hundred years, and had sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.


Heb 11
5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

Once you grasp the full depravity of the lost condition as is seen in Romans 3 -- it is clear that the Heb 11 saints And Gen 5 and 6 saints - are born-again believers - or else - you have "another gospel".

 

[BobRyan]

The arguments about the saved saints of the OT - listed in Heb 11 etc - is not to say that the Gospel events 2000 years ago do not matter. Rather it is that Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" and God regards those things that do not YET exist as though they did.

Salvation in the OT was from the gospel benefit of events in the life of Christ. God is not limited by time in applying them.

Translated to heaven, taken to heaven - means what it says.

Your arguments about truth unfolding over time are not being disputed. The more light available the more light we are responsible for accepting or denying. But there is no such thing in the Bible as not saved because the story is not complete 'enough yet so wait a few thousand years to get saved'. The Bible describes God as forgiving sins, saving, giving people His Holy Spirit, being the Savior of the world in BOTH OT and NT -- And the Gospel is preached BOTH in OT and NT according to even the NT text. This is irrefutable.

The description of OT saints in the Bible as "perfect", "righteous", "walked with God" - pursuing "righteousness that is by faith" is NOT a description of the Romans 3 lost state of man apart from being born again. Rather it can only happen via the ONE Gospel solution that includes the New Birth.

 

[Darrell C]

Peter is so floored by what he sees he wants to make THREE memorials - three tabernacles.

Peter, before (and even after) being born again, was prone to being foolish.

That is not being irreverent of an Apostle, but simply stating what Scripture records.

Consider:


Matthew 16:13-17

King James Version (KJV)

13 When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?

14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.

15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?

16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.

17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.


Peter confesses Christ the Son of the Living God.

Christ makes it clear Peter did not arrive at this conclusion through reason and logic, but that it was revealed to him (and we see the same use of Caiaphas when he prophesies of Christ).

Note what takes place immediately after:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Now can you explain why a born again believer would be in direct opposition to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ, that Gospel being delivered by Christ Himself?

We don't just speak of peter being unregenerate and not yet having the Gospel revealed to him:


John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

And have to break this up because it will not all fit into the restricted amount of space:


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

They profess belief, Christ makes it clear they yet do not.

We see this as fact here, as Peter once again fights for the temporal Kingdom promised to Israel:


John 18:10-11

King James Version (KJV)

10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.

11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?


Christ identifies his (Peter's) actions as trying to avert Christ going to the Cross ("...the cup...shall I not drink it?").

And again, clear indication Peter is not a believing born again Christian...


Matthew 26:71-74

King James Version (KJV)

71 And when he was gone out into the porch, another maid saw him, and said unto them that were there, This fellow was also with Jesus of Nazareth.

72 And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.

73 And after a while came unto him they that stood by, and said to Peter, Surely thou also art one of them; for thy speech bewrayeth thee.

74 Then began he to curse and to swear, saying, I know not the man. And immediately the cock crew.


Born again?

No. Unregenerate.

Christ makes that clear:


Luke 22:31-33

King James Version (KJV)

31 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat:

32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

33 And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death.


We see that Peter, after Christ's death, somewhat petulant, here...


John 21:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14 This is now the third time that Jesus shewed himself to his disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs.

16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep.

18 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdest thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not.


And we see Peter, and the other disciples...still in need of the Baptism with the Holy Spirit.

And this on the Day of the Lord's Ascension:


Acts 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments unto the apostles whom he had chosen:

3 To whom also he shewed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God:


This is spoken the Day He was taken up:


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.



"Wait for the promise of the Father..."

In view are the promises given to Israel (identified as such in v.6) in the Old Testament.

"...which, saith He, ye have heard of Me."

We can read about His teaching on the Promised Spirit decisively in John 14-16, which is prophetic, and speaks clearly about the coming of the Comforter which Christ makes clear could not be sent except He return to Heaven from whence He came.

Now consider the next statement:


5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


I will just say in fleeting that John spoke of the Christ, and that Christ, the Baptizer, would baptize with fire (judgment) and the Spirit (salvation). As you mentioned oil being representative of the Holy Spirit in regards to the Two Witnesses, and I responded that this was an Old Testament usage, and that water was the New Testament picture of the Word, even so here, fire is not representative of the Spirit, but of judgment. And I may throw that in after we look at this text.

The point to consider is that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost has not taken place yet. No denying that, it is all too clear. And while some see this as empowerment, that is not the case, as we will see as we go.

Now we will see what is probably the most misplaced and misguided question in all of Scripture:


6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?


As born again believers our reaction to this question is..."What?! You mean to tell me the Lord has just told you that you will be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence...

...and you savor the things which be of the flesh?"

That is what is in view here. That is what Peter hoped to "help" establish by keeping Christ from dying. He did not understand that Christ was there to die for his sins, but he did understand...

...the promises of God.

Which promised Israel the Kingdom would be restored unto them.

The Lord does not deny the promise of God, but states...


7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.


"...it is not for you to know when that will take place."


8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.


"...after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you."


It is being Baptized with the Holy Ghost that would establish the empowerment to...

...preach the Gospel.

There will be a change in the preaching of the disciples after they are Baptized with the Holy Ghost, for they will begin preaching the revealed Gospel of Christ.

We do not, as you intimated in previous posts, see this as "another Gospel," but the same Gospel that has been progressively revealed throughout Scripture. The disciples were not privy to the Gospel of Christ any more than the Prophet Isaiah was. Used to prophesy, yes, but so was Caiaphas, who also had no clue as to what he was saying...


John 11:49-51

King James Version (KJV)

49 And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,

50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;




We don't, as those Prophets, inquire, we have had the Gospel revealed to us by the Comforter.

That is how we are saved:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Comforter ministers to the lost, enlightening them that they might understand, believe, and embrace the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

No man knew this mystery prior to Pentecost, not even the disciples, who we can see, if we look, were without understanding and even in opposition to the Gospel, and Peter illustrates this best in his attempts to keep Christ from the Cross.

And since this has gotten a little long, we can save a discussion about Matthew 3, John the Baptist's warning of impending judgment, and of Christ's Baptizing with the Spirit, which we see is a future event.

If you will only give this consideration, I assure you it will change how you understand Scripture. The above is indisputable. Christ is the Firstborn from the dead, and He is the only one that has been glorified at this point. We know from Paul's teaching that the dead in Christ rise first, and that has not taken place yet.


Continued...

 

[BobRyan]

I think your posts have yet to address -

Saved saints in the OT listed in Heb 11

[FONT=&quot]Spirit filled men of the OT "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ WITHIN them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ AND the glories to follow[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" 1Pet 1:11.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ps 51:11 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]take not your Holy Spirit from me[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" [/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ezek 11:19-20 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]A New heart" a "new Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]" put within.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 63:10 Israel [/FONT][FONT=&quot]grieved God's "Holy Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]".[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Haggai 2:5 "My Holy Spirit abiding IN your midst"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 51:7 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]In their heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot] was written the Law of God -[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Ps 37:31 - "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]the Law of God IS IN his heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Deut 6:6 God's Word "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]in your heart[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rom 2:28-29 "[/FONT][FONT=&quot]He is not a Jew who is one outwardly... circumcision is that which is of the heart by the Spirit[/FONT][FONT=&quot]"[/FONT]

Hence all the OT saints and even "Righteousness which is by faith" in Heb 11 regarding those OT saints.

"Abraham saw My day and was glad" John 8.

The OT gospel saved - born-again, righeousness by faith and Moses and Elijah fully glorified in Matt 17 - with Christ so much so that Peter wants to make THREE tabernacles -- though face down in the dirt before them.



"Abraham SAW My DAY and was glad" John 8.

Gal 1:6-9 "only ONE Gospel"
Gal 3:7 THAT Gospel was "preached to Abraham"