Featured 5 reasons why the Preterist and/or semi-preterist position is impossible

Uh what is a "Jack Hyles IFBrs"?

HankD

 

Very legalistic, KJVonlyism Independent Fundamental Baptist.

Always enjoy our interaction HankD.

 

HankD, did the Heaven and Earth perish?

 

You shouldn't put the ignore switch on him C4. Grasshopper is full preterist (correct me if I'm wrong GH and I apologize if so) because you need to hear his Challenges/Rebuttals (if any are forthcoming). Maybe he's partial-preterist by now.

Remember "You have a lot to learn grasshopper"? well the name suits him (IMO).

Though he's not so bad.

HankD

 

They will at the end of the Day of the Lord which is 1000 years long.
It begins with the rapture when Jesus comes as a "thief in the night" unexpectedly, and when the world wakes up to the fact that He has come for His own then the wailing begins because that is the undeniable sign of the coming of the son of man - the rapture. Then the tribulation, then the millennium, then the conflagration after satan is released.

That is what Peter in 2 Peter 3:8-10 is saying (IMO).


HankD

 

But what does it mean?

Thanks
HankD

 

Oh, OK GH I saw your answer, thanks.

HankD

 

HankD, after about 15 years I've decided I'm somewhere in the preterist area between partial at one end and full at the other.

Now Peter in verses 5-7 speaks of a world(old earth and heaven)that perished at the flood. Then speaks of a new heaven and earth he is now living in. How did that old earth(and heaven)perish? Did the physical earth perish?

You see where I'm heading?

 

On most of what you post.

1.No of course not. I haven't seen anyone say Christ returned in 70AD. That would be a full preterist view. I'm not sure if we have on of those on here.

2. 66 could and probably was identified with Nero. That does not negate the a future anti-christ, escalating persecution and divine wrath leading to Christ's return. Per Idealist view.

3. 96 AD is probably the date.

4. Matthew 24 is the mostly likely describes judgment of 70AD. Again, doesn't negate future escalating persecution. I actual look for Muslims to be that persecuting force.

5. Didn't see Jesus, but numerous claims of chariots of fire in the sky over the temple before its destruction, per Josephus's historical account.

A lot of partial preterists and Idealists. Hold to Primary and secondary prophecy fulfillments. While idealist are usually Amillienal, some hold to post-trib rapture.

Most of the heat you took on this thread was not due to your stance , but tour attitude towards the other stances. I have spent plenty of time reading and listening to name like MacArthur, Grudem, Jeremiah, and Sproul. All different views. All smart men. All have strengths. All have weakness. I could never say their is a zero chance that any of these men are wrong. I have my preferred view, even have a close #2. The pre-trib/pre-mill is on the very bottom, but I will never say it can't happen. I could even make an argument for a mid-trib/pre-mill if I wanted to. All have points. All use scripture.

 

I did not know grasshopper was a full preterist. I may have to start a new thread to ask him questions. I have never met or talked to one before.

 

GOD did judge Israel in 70AD. Furthermore HE had the Temple destroyed to prevent the continuation of abominable blood sacrifices!

The Apostle John tells us that there are many anti-Christs. There are even today. Do you have a Scripture that says the Anti-Christ will rule for 42 months. I expect that in the world of Islam there are anti-Christ who have ruled for decades.

Revelation is the Word of GOD. Whether it was written before 70AD or after is inconsequential as far as I am concerned. It was written initially to comfort those Christians who were undergoing severe persecution initially from the Jews and then Rome. Furthermore, it was and is written to the Church, not to unbelieving Israel! Further proof that the pre-trib-"snatching away" of the Church is false doctrine.

Revelation is written primarily in apocalyptic language. I also believe there is some prophecy there but it does not lend itself to the dispensational literal hermeneutic!

For your information the three woes are the last three trumpets. The third woe will be fulfilled when Jesus Christ returns, the general resurrection of John 5:28, 29 occurs followed by the Great White Throne Judgment. The same can be said of the sixth seal and the seventh bowl. Incidentally the First seal is being fulfilled each and every day and has been since Pentecost, the spread of the Gospel!

Were you there? Again you are trying to apply a literal interpretation to apocalyptic language!

I suspect Paul already has his crown as do all the deceased Saints!

Perhaps they were the ones Left Behind as Lahaye would say!

 

28 so Christ also, having been once offered to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to them that wait for him, unto salvation. Heb 9
37 For yet a very little while, He that cometh shall come, and shall not tarry. Heb 10

Biblical 'second coming':

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

Occurred already. Done. Completed. Past. Over with. Finished.

23...Christ`s, at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall deliver up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have abolished all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be abolished is death. 1 Cor 15

Notice at His 'next coming' that He has reigned already, and the kingdom has been already.

Late date theory is a house of cards when brought under scrutiny; to quote Robert Young:

"It was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitius Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the Book; and with this concurs the express statement of Irenaeus (A.D.175), who says it happened in the reign of Domitianou, ie., Domitius (Nero). Sulpicius Severus, Orosius, &c., stupidly mistaking Domitianou for Domitianikos, supposed Irenaeus to refer to Domitian, A.D. 95, and most succeeding writers have fallen into the same blunder. The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." (Concise Critical Comments on the Holy Bible, by Robert Young.”

In other words Young says it's a 'stupid mistake' by Sulpicius Severus and others that has resulted in A DOMINO EFFECT of bad information concerning the dating of Revelation down through the centuries.

Also, there is compelling internal evidence within the book itself that much of it is concerned with the 70 AD destruction of Jerusalem:

And I saw another sign in heaven....and them that come off victorious from the beast... they sing the song of Moses the servant of God....Rev 15.1-3

The song of Moses is being sang in heaven in the 15th chapter of Revelation, which is very significant when you consider that the song of Moses had only one purpose and time, and that was to 'testify before Israel as a witness against them' when they had utterly corrupted themselves and evil had befallen them in the 'latter days':

16 And Jehovah said unto Moses.....this people will rise up, and play the harlot ...and break my covenant which I have made with them.
17 Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day.....and many evils and troubles shall come upon them; so that they will say in that day, Are not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?
18 And I will surely hide my face in that day for all the evil which they shall have wrought.....
19 Now therefore write ye this song for you...... that this song may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
21....when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness.....
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands.
30 And Moses spake in the ears of all the assembly of Israel the words of this song, until they were finished. Dt 31

The Song of Moses is quoted from by both Christ and the Apostles in reference to 'that evil generation' of Jews of their day in the gospels and the epistles.

And concerning the external evidence that the book was written prior to 70 AD, there is just as much or more that points to the earlier date:

The Dating of Revelation - VERY informative.

How do you know that?

Christ told the High Priests (Ananus and his SIL Caiaphas) at His illegal 'trial by night':
.....ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Mt 26:64 (Josephus records that Ananus and over 12,000 other priests perished at Jerusalem 70 AD)

I assure you, just as with Paul on the road to Damascus, everyone that He intended to see, saw Him.

 

Interesting view. I haven't read your article on dating revelation, but I will. I currently hold to around 96 AD. Which wouldn't necessarily disprove your view of Matt. 24. And 70A.D. I am also going to assume that you hold to, that when Jesus speaks "he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds", that angels are humans? " messengers of Jesus's gospel?

How about the last half of Matthew 24. Has verse 36 and preceding verses already happened?

 

Absolutely. His 'messengers' have been calling in His elect from the four winds with the gospel trumpet for two millennia now.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

25 As he saith also in Hosea, I will call that my people, which was not my people; And her beloved, that was not beloved.
26 And it shall be, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, There shall they be called sons of the living God. Ro 9

But thanks be unto God, who always leadeth us in triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest through us the savor of his knowledge in every place. 2 Cor 2:14

For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. Hab 2:14

And he shall stand, and shall feed his flock in the strength of Jehovah, in the majesty of the name of Jehovah his God: and they shall abide; for now shall he be great unto the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4

So shall they fear the name of Jehovah from the west, and his glory from the rising of the sun; for he will come as a rushing stream, which the breath of Jehovah driveth. Isa 59:19

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the Gentiles, saith Jehovah of hosts. Mal 1:11

Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass that, in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Hosea 1:10

And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah`s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. Isa 2:2

All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah; And all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. Ps 22:27

Jehovah will be terrible unto them; for he will famish all the gods of the earth; and men shall worship him, every one from his place, even all the isles of the nations. Zeph 2:11


Rejoice greatly, O daughter of Zion; shout, O daughter of Jerusalem: behold, thy king cometh unto thee; he is just, and having salvation; lowly, and riding upon an ass, even upon a colt the foal of an ass. And I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim, and the horse from Jerusalem; and the battle bow shall be cut off; and he shall speak peace unto the nations: and his dominion shall be from sea to sea, and from the River to the ends of the earth. Zech 9:9-10

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband. Gal 4

22 And no man putteth new wine into old wineskins; else the wine will burst the skins, and the wine perisheth, and the skins: but they put new wine into fresh wine-skins. Mark 2

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah.
2 Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thy habitations; spare not: lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes.
3 For thou shalt spread aboard on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall possess the nations, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited. Isa 54

And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; Rev 7:9

At that time will I bring you in, and at that time will I gather you; for I will make you a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I bring back your captivity before your eyes, saith Jehovah. Zeph 3:11

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of Jehovah, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. Isa 11:9-10

The trifold declaration from the Olivet Discourse:

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24:34

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13:30

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21:32

 

Some more questions:

Rev 11. I assume you hold to earthly Jerusalem is the "holy city" described? The two witnesses, already happened? You believe then individuals or the church?

If the prophecy of Matt 24 has already had already happened in its entirety and Revelation as well. Why wouldn't have John told that to Polycarp, who would have passed that on to Irenaeus? It is Irenaeus who gives us the late date. John may have passed that along, but I don't see Irenaeus not sharing. Irenaeus most wrote quoting scripture, encouraging steadfastness and refuting gnostics. Surely he would have used this fulfilled prophecy to encourage believers and against gnostics.

 

“Only fools and madmen are positive in their interpretations of the apocalypse.” C.H. Spurgeon

8 And their dead bodies lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Rev 11
2 And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.
10 standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
16 saying, Woe, woe, the great city, she that was arrayed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearl!
18 and cried out as they looked upon the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like the great city?
19 And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and mourning, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, wherein all that had their ships in the sea were made rich by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints, and of all that have been slain upon the earth. Rev 18

34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! Mt 23

21 And a strong angel took up a stone as it were a great millstone and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with a mighty fall shall Babylon, the great city, be cast down, and shall be found no more at all.
22 And the voice of harpers and minstrels and flute-players and trumpeters shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft, shall be found any more at all in thee; and the voice of a mill shall be heard no more at all in thee;
23 and the light of a lamp shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the princes of the earth; for with thy sorcery were all the nations deceived. Rev 18

38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

19....Let there be no fruit from thee henceforward for ever.... Mt 21

There's been a strong case made that these were James and Peter. Check out 'The Parousia' on this.

Read that article on dating of Rev in my previous post. It's VERY informative.

 

No truer statement has been uttered on the various views presented.