Featured 5 reasons why the Preterist and/or semi-preterist position is impossible

Yes, I believe see it - that would mean then that you and I are also living in the New Heaven and New Earth, but I'm skeptical - of course!

Those who endured it didn't know it was happening. Well maybe the believers (assuming you are right).

I'm still looking into the future for it, hastening the day.

HankD

 

Also Asterisktom was/is a full preterist, he chimes in every now and then.

I would guess he still is but one never knows.
He has a ministry in China so sometimes he has to be careful what he says and how he says it (when he can get on).

HankD

 

Sound reasoning, but only by RCC standards. That is what motivates Catholics to pray to "the dead," the perception that they have bodies, are already resurrected, have the ability to wear crowns.
They are dead. Their bodies are still in the grave. The Bible says "we wait for the redemption of our bodies." Spirits do not wear crowns. Paul said concerning a crown, "which the Lord shall give me 'in that day,'" the day of His Coming, or more specifically, the day of the Judgment Seat of Christ when all believers will stand before Him and rewards will either be given or burned. (1Cor.3:11-15).
That day of judgment will be 1,000 years before (at least) before the resurrection of the dead, or the damned as described in Rev.20:10-15. I don't plan to be at that one. Do you? (If there is only one general resurrection I would only assume that because I don't see any other than 1Cor.3:11-15 which happens a thousand years earlier).

 

I guess you should know being a former RCC and now a disciple of the Darby/Scofield false doctrine.

Not that it means anything to you but do the 24 elders have bodies?

Revelation 4:10. The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

 

I can't answer that with any authoritative answer and I will admit it.
But here is what I do know:

Rev 4:1 After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
Rev 4:2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
Rev 4:3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
Rev 4:4 And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.

In verse one: It is a vision. He hears a voice AS a trumpet which says come up hither.
In verse two: He is "in the spirit." It was an experience that he had in his own spirit while his body was still on Patmos. This was not a resurrection.
He sees the throne and him that sat on it. No man can see God at any time and live. It is spiritual.
--In verse five, he sees "spirits," which otherwise no man can see. These are the seven spirits of God, perhaps denoting seven characteristics of the Holy Spirit.
--Thus in verse 4 I don't believe one can definitively say whether or not the elders are physical or spirits. He is "in the spirit" and can see "spirits" even God himself in this vision. Some believe that the elders represent the church and the crowns given to them. But this is a vision. It is speculation at the best.

 

Thanks for your response DHK. I am in essential agreement with you but an awful lot of pre-trib-dispensationalists say that Revelation 4:1ff is the resurrection or Rapture!

 

I know that they do. I don't see a definite rapture there. The best I can say is that no reference is made to the church (as in churches in chapters two and three) from chapter 4 onward. I wouldn't be dogmatic on that as some of my pre-trib brethren are.

 

I used to hold (loosely) to the Revelation 4:1 rapture theory but now I am not so sure however it is possible (see Rev 11:12 where the two witnesses are taken up into heaven).

RE:The 24 elders - may represent redeemed Israel (12 tribe patriarchs) and the Church (12 apostles).


HankD

 

I see a general resurrection at the sound of the 7th trumpet! But I also see seven pictures of the return of Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation!

That is my understanding!

 

Anyone wonder why he tags his posts at the end with "Anathema, Maranatha"???

 

Paul had a "rapture" as well:

2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven.

"caught up" - Grk. harpazo, same as 1 Thessalonians 4:17.

Also:

Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Again, same word as 1 Thessalonians 4:17 harpazo.

HankD

 

Seems to have been a common occurrence with his prophets to have been transported 'in the Spirit', and like Paul, I can't help but think that they the prophets themselves really didn't know if it was actually in the body or not. Regardless, it was real to them.

2 I know a man in Christ, fourteen years ago (whether in the body, I know not; or whether out of the body, I know not; God knoweth), such a one caught up even to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man (whether in the body, or apart from the body, I know not; God knoweth),
4 how that he was caught up into Paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. 2 Cor 12

39 And when they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip; and the eunuch saw him no more, for he went on his way rejoicing.
40 But Philip was found at Azotus: and passing through he preached the gospel to all the cities, till he came to Caesarea. Acts 8

I was in the Spirit on the Lord`s day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10

....I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter. Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne; Rev 4:1,2

And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:3

And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Rev 21 :10

12 Then the Spirit lifted me up, and I heard behind me the voice of a great rushing, saying, Blessed be the glory of Jehovah from his place.
14 So the Spirit lifted me up, and took me away; and I went in bitterness, in the heat of my spirit; and the hand of Jehovah was strong upon me. Ezek 3

And he put forth the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my head; and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven, and brought me in the visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the gate of the inner court that looketh toward the north; where was the seat of the image of jealousy, which provoketh to jealousy. Ezek 8:3

1 Moreover the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me unto the east gate of Jehovah`s house, which looketh eastward: and behold, at the door of the gate five and twenty men; and I saw in the midst of them Jaazaniah the son of Azzur, and Pelatiah the son of Benaiah, princes of the people.
24 And the Spirit lifted me up, and brought me in the vision by the Spirit of God into Chaldea, to them of the captivity. So the vision that I had seen went up from me. Ezek 11

The hand of Jehovah was upon me, and he brought me out in the Spirit of Jehovah, and set me down in the midst of the valley; and it was full of bones. Ezek 37:1

In the visions of God brought he me into the land of Israel, and set me down upon a very high mountain, whereon was as it were the frame of a city on the south. Ezek 40:2

And the Spirit took me up, and brought me into the inner court; and, behold, the glory of Jehovah filled the house. Ezek 43:5

And it will come to pass, as soon as I am gone from thee, that the Spirit of Jehovah will carry thee whither I know not; and so when I come and tell Ahab, and he cannot find thee, he will slay me: but I thy servant fear Jehovah from my youth. 1 Ki 18:12

And they said unto him, Behold now, there are with thy servants fifty strong men; let them go, we pray thee, and seek thy master, lest the Spirit of Jehovah hath taken him up, and cast him upon some mountain, or into some valley. And he said, Ye shall not send. 2 Ki 2:16

 

I was in the Spirit on the Lord`s day, and I heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet Rev 1:10

....I heard, a voice as of a trumpet speaking with me, one saying, Come up hither, and I will show thee the things which must come to pass hereafter. Straightway I was in the Spirit: and behold, there was a throne set in heaven, and one sitting upon the throne; Rev 4:1,2

And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. Rev 17:3

And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, Rev 21 :10

So how many times was John 'raptured' while recording the things he saw? Four times?

 

What they were are simply normal devices for the genre of apocalyptic where visions and the like are the means of disseminating information along with the angelus interpres also in Rev.

Shocking... John is in lock-step with the genre so much so he is typifying!!!

 

There was a time, not long ago when I thought to myself that I lacked the critical thinking skills to get through some of the higher math and science classes in college. The truth of the matter is I would like to go to seminary. But not to enter a full time ministry. Rather just because I love the Scriptures and want to learn what I can and be in an academic setting for a while. I'm < than 10 years away from retirement.

Anyway, while I have several degrees they are all liberal arts degrees but what I really wanted back in the day was a hard science degree. The math part brought me down. So thinking about attending seminary for personal enrichment make me a bit uneasy because I have this unfinished business at the undergraduate level, mainly chemistry. Organic Chemistry to be specific.

So I work full time and do a bunch of other things including evening classes at a state University. Started out taking algebra classes with the goal of continuing to OCHEM 2. Along the way one specific thing worried me and that was will I be able to handle the critical thinking requirements of the higher math and sciences courses?

Now that I've made it through 5 semesters of undergraduate chemistry and some higher math the critical thinking skills that I didn't think I had are all I think necessary to study the Bible at a seminary level even if not actively in seminary. It seems like a believer that actually believes the words of the Bible can achieve a seminary understanding or more without having to pay all that tuition. I see it here all the time. Seminary graduates that cannot apply the simple meaning of the words of Scripture to their personal faith. Rather, what I see is man with a degree who basically spouts the party line.

I have also found that learning the higher sciences in a secular institution, taught by non-believers is easier on the faith than a theological debate with fellow believers. That is of course if you approach the Scriptures with the understanding that the words of the Bible are trustworthy and true.

If you are driving a car in the wilderness and it breaks down, might you not check to see if there is a toolbox in the trunk? Imagine there is a toolbox, spare parts and a automobile fix it guide. You never work on cars but your in the woods. Do you open the troubleshooting chapter of the book and start working or do you write out your funeral plans?

You open the book and follow it step by step, hanging on every word. Is that auto fix up book the Word of God? To some, I think it is safe to say that they place the words of some book above the Bible. They don't hang on it's every word, they don't trust it like it's a car fix up book.

A bit of a mystery would you not agree?

 

Can you condense your parable? And make it relevant too, please.