Matthias

[wpe3bql]

Acts 1:12-26 recounts the selection of Matthias as a replacement for Judas Iscariot.

I've read some commentators who state that this action was quite presumptuous---and that God did not recognize it as valid, mainly because the Jerusalem believers had not yet been fully endowed with the HS.

Most of these commentators state that God intended Paul to be that replacement.

OTOH, I've also read that some commentators contend that this action was a valid one. Some of these commentators point to the "binding / loosing" clause in Matthew 16:19 as relevant in this particular case.

SO.....what do you think about this selection of Matthias?

 

[JonC]

Acts 1:12-26 recounts the selection of Matthias as a replacement for Judas Iscariot.

I've read some commentators who state that this action was quite presumptuous---and that God did not recognize it as valid, mainly because the Jerusalem believers had not yet been fully endowed with the HS.

Most of these commentators state that God intended Paul to be that replacement.

OTOH, I've also read that some commentators contend that this action was a valid one. Some of these commentators point to the "binding / loosing" clause in Matthew 16:19 as relevant in this particular case.

SO.....what do you think about this selection of Matthias?

I understand the reasoning behind rejecting Matthias...but it is not supported in Scripture.

 

[revmwc]

I understand the reasoning behind rejecting Matthias...but it is not supported in Scripture.

Except maybe in one specific reference, Revelation 21:14 "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Who are the twelve apostles, the original 11 and Matthias or the original 11 and Paul?

 

[lakeside]

I tried to erase my post, sorry my mistake, I'm not allowed to post here.

 

[TCassidy]

It is simple to determine who was the replacement for Judas, Matthais or Paul. (By the way, there are 17 people in the bible called "apostle." The original 12 in Matt 10:2 and following. Matthaias in Acts 1:25, 26. Barnabus and Paul, Acts 14:14, James the brother of Jesus, Gal 1:19, and Jesus in Hebrews 3:1. If you fail to distinguish between the "Twelve" and the other five you will be sadly confused.) Let's see what the bible has to say on this issue (novel idea!)

In the bible the Apostles were called "the twelve" in several different places, but for purposes of illustration I will list only two, John 6:71 and 20:24.

However, after the death of Judas, they are no longer called "the twelve" but "the eleven" - Matthew 28:16, Mark 16;14, Luke 24:9, 24:33.

Now note Acts 1:26. "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." 11+1=12.

Now note Acts 2:14, "But Peter, standing up with the eleven, . . . " Peter, plus the other 10, plus Matthias makes 12. Peter plus eleven others.

Now notice Acts 6:2 "Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables."

They were again the "twelve" in Acts 6, but Paul was not even saved until Acts 9! Therefore, Matthias is the twelfth Apostle, one of "the twelve." Paul was an apostle, a "sent one" to the Gentiles. A very special man with a very special calling, but not one of "the twelve." When we get to heaven and see the foundations of the Heavenly City, and the names of the Apostles on the twelve foundations, it will be the name of Matthias, not Paul, which is written there. Paul was not with them "Beginning from the baptism of John, unto that same day that he was taken up from us, . . ." (Acts 1;22) and thus did not meet the biblical qualification to be one of "the twelve."

 

[lakeside]

I've made a terrible error I unintentionally posted on this thread, sorry, I will try and erase it before I get banned.

 

[wpe3bql]

"Beginning from the baptism of John

Is there any specific Bible citation that states that Matthias was actually baptized by John?

Is there any specific Bible reference that clearly gives the specific names of the apostles that will appear on the foundations of the Heavenly City?

Please understand that I am not disputing your statements because I am not.

I've found that quite often even my own ideas about various Bible incidents are just assumptions that have no real objective Biblical bases.

 

[JonC]

The only evidence I can find is that he took Judas' place as one of the 12. I can't find anything stating Pail as such.

 

[revmwc]

The only evidence I can find is that he took Judas' place as one of the 12. I can't find anything stating Pail as such.

So do you believe Paul was not an apostle chosen by Christ?

Yet Matthias was chosen by man!

 

[JonC]

So do you believe Paul was not an apostle chosen by Christ?

Yet Matthias was chosen by man!

No, I believe that Paul was an apostle chosen by Christ (as he put it, as one untimely born). This is how Paul could defend his apostleship.

What I am saying is that casting lots was a legitimate process for that culture in that time in history. The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD. (Proverbs 16:33). I would actually like to say that Matthias was chosen by man, after all we do not see him (and granted, others numbered among the 12) as very active in the New Testament Church....but this is not the understanding of casting lots by the authors of Scripture (we make that determination through modern eyes). Just going by Scripture there is no evidence that Matthias was not numbered among the 12, and there is no evidence that he was not chosen by God.

There is another difference...Matthias was a disciple of Jesus who : "accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us— beginning with the baptism of John until the day that He was taken up from us—one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

There is also no evidence that Paul, although certainly an apostle, was "numbered among the 12." There are others who are not one of the 12, but who play an integral role in our theology (Mark, Luke, the author of Hebrews). This does not diminish Paul at all. He was uniquely an apostle. But there is no evidence that God did not answer the prayers of the disciples when they prayed that the lot cast would be a decision from the Lord. We can't stand on speculation.

 

[JonC]

I've made a terrible error I unintentionally posted on this thread, sorry, I will try and erase it before I get banned.

That's ironic....it's the first time I actually agreed with you. :smilewinkgrin: (I know you can't answer for fear of banishment....but I thought it funny.

 

[Sapper Woody]

The big problem here is that casting lots is a form of divination, and diviners were to be put to death. I don't think God would bless a decision made using a means He abhors.



A side effect of man choosing Mathias is that Paul constantly has to defend his apostleship. His books almost all start off, "Paul, an apostle...".

 

[JonC]

The big problem here is that casting lots is a form of divination, and diviners were to be put to death. I don't think God would bless a decision made using a means He abhors.

A side effect of man choosing Mathias is that Paul constantly has to defend his apostleship. His books almost all start off, "Paul, an apostle...".

I respectfully disagree, Brother. What we are talking about is cleromancy - casting lots to reveal the will of God.

In Leviticus God commands Moses to do exactly this “divination.” Joshua casts lots before the Lord to divide the land among the tribes of Israel (this is actually seen as a favorable action…not a sin). God revealed Jonah to the sailors through the casting of lots. They were used to determine if it was Jonathan who broke the oath that Saul made. Gideon did the same with a wool fleece…more than once….and God honored the request. And back to the first one - God commanded Moses to cast lots upon the goats. Proverbs 16:33 reads "The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD."

I think that sometimes our language and understanding does not reflect ancient customs. Where you read “to practice divination” I think you may miss the paganism associated with the meaning of that verse (it is also translated “augur”).

There is absolutely no evidence, other than our tradition and speculation, that Matthias was not chosen by God. Paul did not, by the way, meet the requirements set forth by the Disciples to be one of the Twelve (although he did meet the requirement to be an apostle). I think you are looking into your own reasoning, perhaps a bit of tradition, and certainly with modern eyes rather than putting yourself in the context of Acts 1. At least that is what I was doing when I shared your view on Matthias.

 

[revmwc]

I respectfully disagree, Brother. What we are talking about is cleromancy - casting lots to reveal the will of God.

In Leviticus God commands Moses to do exactly this “divination.” Joshua casts lots before the Lord to divide the land among the tribes of Israel (this is actually seen as a favorable action…not a sin). God revealed Jonah to the sailors through the casting of lots. They were used to determine if it was Jonathan who broke the oath that Saul made. Gideon did the same with a wool fleece…more than once….and God honored the request. And back to the first one - God commanded Moses to cast lots upon the goats. Proverbs 16:33 reads "The lot is cast into the lap, But its every decision is from the LORD."

I think that sometimes our language and understanding does not reflect ancient customs. Where you read “to practice divination” I think you may miss the paganism associated with the meaning of that verse (it is also translated “augur”).

There is absolutely no evidence, other than our tradition and speculation, that Matthias was not chosen by God. Paul did not, by the way, meet the requirements set forth by the Disciples to be one of the Twelve (although he did meet the requirement to be an apostle). I think you are looking into your own reasoning, perhaps a bit of tradition, and certainly with modern eyes rather than putting yourself in the context of Acts 1. At least that is what I was doing when I shared your view on Matthias.

Revelation 21:14 "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

So do you feel that the twelve apostles of the Lamb as seen in the above verse will be the original 11 plus Matthias and Paul will be excluded?

 

[JonC]

Revelation 21:14 "And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."



So do you feel that the twelve apostles of the Lamb as seen in the above verse will be the original 11 plus Matthias and Paul will be excluded?

Perhaps. But what I am saying is that we cannot justify through Scripture the exclusion of Matthias. That would be speculation. I also do not know that it is within the context of the 12 that Paul says he is an apostle. (although he certainly was an apostle chosen by Christ).

 

[revmwc]

Perhaps. But what I am saying is that we cannot justify through Scripture the exclusion of Matthias. That would be speculation. I also do not know that it is within the context of the 12 that Paul says he is an apostle. (although he certainly was an apostle chosen by Christ).

Of course 12 was the number Jesus originally chose wonder why and why Revelation 21 says the pillars are name after the 12 apostles of the Lamb.

Then number is significant. !2 the number of governmental perfection or completion, therefore only 12 apostles would instruct the church. So Matthias or Paul would be excluded, my belief is Matthias is excluded and Paul is the one Christ chose to replace Judas.

 

[JonC]

Of course 12 was the number Jesus originally chose wonder why and why Revelation 21 says the pillars are name after the 12 apostles of the Lamb.



Then number is significant. !2 the number of governmental perfection or completion, therefore only 12 apostles would instruct the church. So Matthias or Paul would be excluded, my belief is Matthias is excluded and Paul is the one Christ chose to replace Judas.

Would you consider Levi one of the 12 tribes of Israel? We have to be careful with numerology. And, I will add, your theory may be right. There is just not enough to substantiate it through Scripture so it remains speculation. It's not something I would stand on.

 

[revmwc]

Would you consider Levi one of the 12 tribes of Israel? We have to be careful with numerology. And, I will add, your theory may be right. There is just not enough to substantiate it through Scripture so it remains speculation. It's not something I would stand on.

Yes Levi is. They are always listed in an order of 12.

To find the true list as will be seen in eternity we see Ezekiel 48:31-34,

31 "And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.
32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.
33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.
34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali."

This fits perfectly with Revelation 21

12 "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:
13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates."

Over and over God always speaks of just 12 tribes. The list may be different in the situation God is dealing with them but it is always 12. Ezekiel gives the 12 sons as the 12 tribes.

 

[JonC]

Yes Levi is. They are always listed in an order of 12.



To find the true list as will be seen in eternity we see Ezekiel 48:31-34,



31 "And the gates of the city shall be after the names of the tribes of Israel: three gates northward; one gate of Reuben, one gate of Judah, one gate of Levi.

32 And at the east side four thousand and five hundred: and three gates; and one gate of Joseph, one gate of Benjamin, one gate of Dan.

33 And at the south side four thousand and five hundred measures: and three gates; one gate of Simeon, one gate of Issachar, one gate of Zebulun.

34 At the west side four thousand and five hundred, with their three gates; one gate of Gad, one gate of Asher, one gate of Naphtali."



This fits perfectly with Revelation 21



12 "And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel:

13 On the east three gates; on the north three gates; on the south three gates; and on the west three gates."



Over and over God always speaks of just 12 tribes. The list may be different in the situation God is dealing with them but it is always 12. Ezekiel gives the 12 sons as the 12 tribes.

Is Levi one of the 12 tribes that received an allotment of land?

 

[revmwc]

Is Levi one of the 12 tribes that received an allotment of land?

No they were set aside as the Priestly Tribe of the others. Still a part of the twelve.