Forgive them .....

[wpe3bql]

One of the more well-known sayings of The Son of God, Jesus Christ, that was uttered while our Savior hung on His blood-stained cross is found in Luke 23:34 ----

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

Throughout the various Gospel accounts Jesus proclaimed that God the Father is practically duty-bound to act on whatever His Son asks of Him.

So ....... Did our Heavenly Father actually forgive those people who put our Savior on the cross?

If so, was His forgiveness exactly the same as the forgiveness we receive when we trust Jesus Christ as our own personal Savior?

IOW, will we see these people walking the golden streets along with John the Baptist (& me!)?

If "Yes," or if "No," please explain your reason(s) for your position(s) on this, along with specific Scripture(s) that support your view(s).

Thanks.

 

[kyredneck]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1824989#post1824989

I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: Jn 17:9

I think this applies here. IMO, there were many of His children there that unwittingly took part in that awful deed, just as Paul, separated from his mother's womb, persecuted the Church thinking that he was doing service to God.

 

[wpe3bql]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1824989#post1824989

So ....... what precisely is the immutable and absolute conclusion am I to draw from the above cited BB link?

We can't ALL be consistently110+% correct, can we?? :thumbsup:

 

[JonC]

There is an OT reference under the Law. Where there is ignorance there can be forgiveness. I think this was Jesus' point. Over and over again we will see Peter emphasizing that the Jews acted in ignorance.

 

[kyredneck]

So ....... what precisely is the immutable and absolute conclusion am I to draw from the above cited BB link?

...just a friendly poke ktn4eg, er, wpe3bql I mean.

We can't ALL be consistently110+% correct, can we?? :thumbsup:

Nope, none of us are. But it can be fun acting like are sometimes.

 

[kyredneck]

There is an OT reference under the Law. Where there is ignorance there can be forgiveness. I think this was Jesus' point. Over and over again we will see Peter emphasizing that the Jews acted in ignorance.

I did like Pink on this:

“..... This cross-intercession of Christ for his enemies met with a marked and definite answer. The answer is seen in the conversion of the three thousand souls on the day of Pentecost. I base this conclusion on Acts 3:17 where the apostle Peter says, "And now, brethren, I wot that through ignorance ye did it, as did also your rulers." It is to be noted that Peter used the word "ignorance" which corresponds with our Lord’s "they know not what they do". Here then is the divine explanation of the 3,000 converted under a single sermon. It was not Peter’s eloquence which was the cause but the Saviour’s prayer.....”

“What a complete picture did the Holy Spirit furnish of our Lord’s Passion with all the attendant circumstances! Among other things it had been foretold that the Saviour should "make intercession for the transgressors" (Isaiah 53:12). This did not have reference to the present ministry of Christ at God’s right hand. It is true that "he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them" (Hebrews 7:25), but this speaks of what he is doing now for those who have believed on him, whereas Isaiah 53:12 had reference to his gracious act at the time of his crucifixion. Observe what his intercession for the transgressors is there linked with - "and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors."

That Christ should make intercession for his enemies was one of the items of the wonderful prophecy found in Isaiah 53. This chapter tells us at least ten things about the humiliation and suffering of the Redeemer. It declared that he should be despised and rejected of men; that he should be a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; that he should be wounded, bruised and chastised; that he should be led, unresistingly, to slaughter; that he should be dumb before his shearers; that he should not only suffer at the hands of man but also be bruised by the Lord; that he should pour out his soul unto death; that he should be buried in a rich man’s tomb; and then it was added, that he would be numbered with transgressors; and finally, that he should make intercession for the transgressors. Here then was the prophecy - "and made intercession for the transgressors"; there was the fulfillment of it - "Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do". He thought of his murderers. He pleaded for his crucifiers; he made intercession for their forgiveness......”

 

[kyredneck]

Forgive them .....

Forgive me if I was out of line for posting the link. I respect that you advised us all of the moniker change up front and see nothing wrong with the redundancy of topics here on BB, and have even considered rehashing some old threads myself. I should have left the link off. Sorry.

 

[wpe3bql]

...just a friendly poke ktn4eg, er, wpe3bql I mean.



Nope, none of us are. But it can be fun acting like are sometimes.

Who's acting???? :BangHead:

 

[tyndale1946]

Who's acting???? :BangHead:

OOOOOO... My brother you do have a tantrum!... That being said I like the line from one our hymns... I Would See Jesus... Though none can see him but his friends and they were once his foes!... Brother Glen

 

[Rippon]

The first sentence of Luke 23:34 is a textual variant --a scribal insertion. For instance, it's not in P75 and Codex Bezae.

 

[tyndale1946]

The first sentence of Luke 23:34 is a textual variant --a scribal insertion. For instance, it's not in P75 and Codex Bezae.

I need an interpreter!... What'd he say?... Brother Glen

 

[JonC]

The first sentence of Luke 23:34 is a textual variant --a scribal insertion. For instance, it's not in P75 and Codex Bezae.

I did not realize that, but it is a good point. It certainly would not be a good foundation to build upon (at least not in isolation and recognition that it may be a scribal insertion).

 

[kyredneck]

I need an interpreter!... What'd he say?... Brother Glen

It's like this:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Ro 8 KJV

That last part italicized ain't really there, some hardhead added it in.

 

[Rippon]

It's interesting that in Acts 7:60 there is no textual variant.

These are the last words of Stephen :

Lord, do not hold this sin against them.

Some scribes must have rationalized :"Wait a minute. If Stephen, a mere man, had the capacity to utter this, then certainly our Savior shouldn't be trumped in that regard."

I say this respectfully.

 

[Rippon]

It's like this:

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Ro 8 KJV

That last part italicized ain't really there, some hardhead added it in.

That's an example of harmonization. It's still an insertion but different than the case of Luke 23:34.

From How To Choose a Translation for all its Worth by Gordon D. Fee and Mark L. Strauss.

"One of the more common adjustments to the text was the scribal tendency to harmonize passages. Harmonization sometimes occurred within a given passage, sometimes with the wording of similar passages, and especially between similar passages or sayings of Jesus among the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke). One may assume that scribes more often conformed passages to one another than disharmonized them, and therefore a harmonized reading is usually not the original reading." (p.115)

 

[JonC]

That's an example of harmonization. It's still an insertion but different than the case of Luke 23:34.

From How To Choose a Translation for all its Worth by Gordon D. Fee and Mark L. Strauss.

"One of the more common adjustments to the text was the scribal tendency to harmonize passages. Harmonization sometimes occurred within a given passage, sometimes with the wording of similar passages, and especially between similar passages or sayings of Jesus among the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke). One may assume that scribes more often conformed passages to one another than disharmonized them, and therefore a harmonized reading is usually not the original reading." (p.115)

I take it another example would be translations that have "kicking against the goads" in Acts 9 and in Acts 26 (the quote is Acts 26, but both passages are accounts of Paul's conversion).

 

[Bro. James]

Oldest is not necessarily best. Higher textual criticism can put one in the ditch.

An interesting surf: htlp://www.scionofzion.com/luke_23_34.html

There is also an appropriate lesson on forgiveness.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Bro. James]

Oldest is not necessarily best. Higher textual criticism can put one in the ditch.

An interesting surf: htlp://www.scionofzion.com/luke_23_34.html

There is also an appropriate lesson on forgiveness.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

Errata: http://www.scionofzion.com/luke_23_34.html

I do not advocate KJVO; but there is a lot of interesting information on this site regarding the received text and modern translations.

Satan uses many tricks to cast doubt on: The Word of God.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Bro. James

 

[Rippon]

I do not advocate KJVO; but there is a lot of interesting information on this site regarding the received text and modern translations.

Correction: A great deal of false information and defamation of good Bible translations --and their translators was presented on that link of yours.

Satan uses many tricks to cast doubt on: The Word of God.

That is exactly what that website did --it cast doubt (to say the least) on many good Bible translations. Stay clear of KJVOism. It will hinder you spiritually.

 

[wpe3bql]

Stay clear of KJVOism. It will hinder you spiritually.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

It did that to me.

It's not that I'm an ANTI-KJV advocate. I'm not.

OTOH hand I've met with (even fellowshipped with) folks who were so bound up in, for lack of a better expression, the "Ruckmanite wing of 1611 KJVO sect."

It's a shame to firmly believe that God failed to give His children no infallible Word until A.D. 1611, and none all these 400+ years since.