"the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever"

[SovereignGrace]

God has always desired ALL to be saved.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
--He is not willing that any should perish.
--His will is that all should come to repentance.

The key words to us-ward. He's not willing any of them should perish.

1Jn 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
--He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world.

Study propitiation. It actually satisfies God's wrath. If Christ propitiated everyone's sins, then all are saved.

1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
--His will is that all men are to be saved.

In lieu of other passages such as John 10, 17, Ez. 34, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, if God truly willed to have all men be saved, they would be saved.

The fact that many are not saved is not to be attributed to God, but rather to the hardness of man's heart and his unwillingness to come to Christ, accept his offer of salvation and refuse it instead.

Man naturally has a sin-hardened heart. God has to give them a new heart; Ez. 11:19 and 36:26. Salvation is an offer but a calling.

 

[DHK]

The key words to us-ward. He's not willing any of them should perish.

Nonsense. Typical Calvinistic answer.
"Usward" doesnt' change the meaning of the verse at all. Often the writer addresses the Christian about his plan of salvation. Almost all the NT is written to Christians or do you believe it is a book written to the unsaved?

Study propitiation. It actually satisfies God's wrath. If Christ propitiated everyone's sins, then all are saved.

I know what propitiation is. Your problem here is, that John specifically says:
"and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world."
He made satisfaction, satisfied the legal demands of God, not just for the "elect" so-called, but for the sins of all the world.
The conclusion: "then all would be saved," is irrational.
Salvation is based on "belief." It is the gift of God, and must be accepted by faith.

In lieu of other passages such as John 10, 17, Ez. 34, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, if God truly willed to have all men be saved, they would be saved.

See above. It is a person's right to reject salvation. God will not force any person to be saved. It is His will for all to be saved, but He will not force His will on anyone.

Man naturally has a sin-hardened heart. God has to give them a new heart; Ez. 11:19 and 36:26. Salvation is an offer but a calling.

No. salvation is a gift; a gift that needs to be accepted.
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. IT (salvation) is the gift of God not of works...

 

[SovereignGrace]

Nonsense. Typical Calvinistic answer.
"Usward" doesnt' change the meaning of the verse at all. Often the writer addresses the Christian about his plan of salvation. Almost all the NT is written to Christians or do you believe it is a book written to the unsaved?

I know what propitiation is. Your problem here is, that John specifically says:
"and not for ours only, but for the sins of the whole world."
He made satisfaction, satisfied the legal demands of God, not just for the "elect" so-called, but for the sins of all the world.
The conclusion: "then all would be saved," is irrational.
Salvation is based on "belief." It is the gift of God, and must be accepted by faith.

See above. It is a person's right to reject salvation. God will not force any person to be saved. It is His will for all to be saved, but He will not force His will on anyone.

No. salvation is a gift; a gift that needs to be accepted.
For by grace are ye saved through faith and that not of yourselves. IT (salvation) is the gift of God not of works...

What about those that died in remote areas during the time of Christ's ministry and life? Was God willing they be saved, not knowing Christ was alive at their time? Many have died without knowing Christ exists. Are they saved? Was God willing they be saved? Could they be saved without knowing the existence of Jesus Christ?

 

[DHK]

What about those that died in remote areas during the time of Christ's ministry and life? Was God willing they be saved, not knowing Christ was alive at their time? Many have died without knowing Christ exists. Are they saved? Was God willing they be saved? Could they be saved without knowing the existence of Jesus Christ?

That is only an assumption that you are making.

The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
--The moral law of God is written on their hearts.
--They have a God-given conscience that tells them the difference between right and wrong.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--God has so revealed himself to mankind that no one, anywhere, will have an excuse.

If you think they do, think of this:
The Great Commission was never rescinded.
Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
If by chance someone dies without the gospel, and should have heard the gospel, do you not think their blood will be upon our hands for disobeying that Commission that was given to us, who already have the gospel and the means to get it to them?

 

[OldRegular]

If you think they do, think of this:
The Great Commission was never rescinded.
Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
If by chance someone dies without the gospel, and should have heard the gospel, do you not think their blood will be upon our hands for disobeying that Commission that was given to us, who already have the gospel and the means to get it to them?

So who will preach Jesus Christ, and him crucified. {1 Corinthians 2:2} after the Church is "snatched" or "taken by force" out of this world!

 

[SovereignGrace]

That is only an assumption that you are making.

No it's not. Do you believe peoples were living in places other than Asia Minor during Christ's life and ministry? If yes, then how could they have heard about Christ? The laws on their hearts, yes. People desire to worship somone/something. The Philistines had Dagon they worshipped. While Moses was on Mt. Sanai, the Israelites made a golden calf to bow before. Then there's Baal, Ashtoreth, Chemosh(Moabites and Ammonites), Hadad, Marduk(Babylon), Milcom(Ammonites), Molech(Ammonites), Tammuz(Syrian and Phoenician), and Artemis(Dianna in Ephesus). The laws written on their hearts was their knowing it was wrong to kill, steal and destroy. They knew it was wrong to have their neighbor's wife or husband. But true God-given revelation comes from the preaching of Christ. Not by this mysticism.

•••Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

We're in agreement here, I am quite sure.

•••How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

Even those who hear the gospel and don't believe can not call upon Him. I am sure we're in agreement here, too.

•••And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?

Here is where the disagreement starts and stops I am afraid. Faith comes by hearing the word of God(10:17). Now, I do not think for one second that everyone who has ever lived has known about Jesus. Too many remote places from AD 30 until the late-1700's when William Cafey and his family went on a missions to evangelize in India. I think it was ca. 1793 when he started his missionary work. In 1800, they had their first convert in India. Without Carey et al works, those in India at that time, would have never knew Jesus existed.

•••And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?

Again, it took Carey et al works to bring the lost to Christ.

The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.

Agreed. And how does He do this. By mystical means or via His word, the gospel?

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)
--The moral law of God is written on their hearts.
--They have a God-given conscience that tells them the difference between right and wrong.

The laws written on their hearts was their knowing it was wrong to kill, steal and destroy. They knew it was wrong to have their neighbor's wife or husband. But true God-given revelation comes from the preaching of Christ. Not by this mysticism.

Rom 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
--God has so revealed himself to mankind that no one, anywhere, will have an excuse.

This is through natural revelation. Watch a hen and her chicks when a storm approaches. She 'clucks' and they run under her. However, it takes more than this to know Christ. The Indians believed in a happy hunting ground. They believed in an afterlife. But that's not knowing Christ in an intimate relationship.

If you think they do, think of this:
The Great Commission was never rescinded.
Go ye into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.
If by chance someone dies without the gospel, and should have heard the gospel, do you not think their blood will be upon our hands for disobeying that Commission that was given to us, who already have the gospel and the means to get it to them?

Impossible. Christ said God would lose none of His. These are those who have their name already written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world(Rev. 17:11). They will be saved because of these biblical truths:


•••It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.(Ro. 9:16)

••• But we ought always to thank God for you, brothers and sisters loved by the Lord, because God chose you as firstfruits[a] to be saved through the sanctifying work of the Spirit and through belief in the truth.(2 Ths. 2:13)

••• for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose.(Phpps. 2:13)

 

[DHK]

No it's not. Do you believe peoples were living in places other than Asia Minor during Christ's life and ministry? If yes, then how could they have heard about Christ? The laws on their hearts, yes. People desire to worship somone/something. The Philistines had Dagon they worshipped. While Moses was on Mt. Sanai, the Israelites made a golden calf to bow before. Then there's Baal, Ashtoreth, Chemosh(Moabites and Ammonites), Hadad, Marduk(Babylon), Milcom(Ammonites), Molech(Ammonites), Tammuz(Syrian and Phoenician), and Artemis(Dianna in Ephesus). The laws written on their hearts was their knowing it was wrong to kill, steal and destroy. They knew it was wrong to have their neighbor's wife or husband. But true God-given revelation comes from the preaching of Christ. Not by this mysticism.

Yes, and God held Israel responsible. He called out a nation unto himself and made them responsible to be a light to the world at that time. In so many ways did they fail.
However, he did send both Jonah and Nahum to the Assyrians.
Rahab the harlot heard of the works of Jehovah, and what he did in Egypt and to other nations along the way to Jericho. She believed as a result.
Ruth believed as a result of the testimony of Naomi, though Ruth was from Moab.
There were many from pagan nations that believed on Jehovah as the Israelites made their travels to the Promised Land, and then on through the rest of their history as well.

Even Esther must have made an impact sending a message to the Jews as far as India and Ethiopia.

During the time of Christ, or just after, read some history on the apostles and where they went. Thomas went to India and was a missionary there.
At Pentecost there were Jews present from at least 15 different nations. They all heard the Word in their own mother tongue. Over 100,000 were present. We read of the Ethiopian Eunuch travelling back to Africa, saved along the way.

•••Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Yes, indeed.

We're in agreement here, I am quite sure.

•••How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in?

Even those who hear the gospel and don't believe can not call upon Him. I am sure we're in agreement here, too.

What would prevent them?

•••And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?

Here is where the disagreement starts and stops I am afraid. Faith comes by hearing the word of God(10:17). Now, I do not think for one second that everyone who has ever lived has known about Jesus.

The better question to ask yourself is: Has everyone that has desired to know about Jesus "known about Jesus?"
Would God refuse anyone?

 

[Iconoclast]

:laugh:

The key words to us-ward. He's not willing any of them should perish.



Study propitiation. It actually satisfies God's wrath. If Christ propitiated everyone's sins, then all are saved.



In lieu of other passages such as John 10, 17, Ez. 34, Romans 8:28-30, Ephesians 1:4, Revelation 17:8, if God truly willed to have all men be saved, they would be saved.



Man naturally has a sin-hardened heart. God has to give them a new heart; Ez. 11:19 and 36:26. Salvation is an offer but a calling.

:laughHK does not understand these things. The context of 2 pet3....the word usward:laugh:....no he does not grasp these concepts....soon he will accuse you of being heretical:wavey:

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yes, and God held Israel responsible. He called out a nation unto himself and made them responsible to be a light to the world at that time. In so many ways did they fail.
However, he did send both Jonah and Nahum to the Assyrians.
Rahab the harlot heard of the works of Jehovah, and what he did in Egypt and to other nations along the way to Jericho. She believed as a result.
Ruth believed as a result of the testimony of Naomi, though Ruth was from Moab.
There were many from pagan nations that believed on Jehovah as the Israelites made their travels to the Promised Land, and then on through the rest of their history as well.

And those that responded in faith were of the chosen. Look at how they believed. They believed through the word of God. God sent Jonah to Ninevah to tell them it would be destroyed. They repented and God repented and did not destroy it. Rahab had heard and as it states in Roman 10:17, Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Even Esther must have made an impact sending a message to the Jews as far as India and Ethiopia.

No disagreement. If you examine her life, you will see she is a picture of Christ.

During the time of Christ, or just after, read some history on the apostles and where they went. Thomas went to India and was a missionary there.
At Pentecost there were Jews present from at least 15 different nations. They all heard the Word in their own mother tongue. Over 100,000 were present. We read of the Ethiopian Eunuch travelling back to Africa, saved along the way.

Yes, indeed.

All of this flowed from the word of God being heard.

What would prevent them?

They were none of His sheep. but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.(John 10:26)

The better question to ask yourself is: Has everyone that has desired to know about Jesus "known about Jesus?"
Would God refuse anyone?

Yes to the first. No to the last.


Here's a question I ask to further us along. Is anyone saved without the word of God either being preached or used in witnessing to lost souls?

 

[DHK]

:laugh:

:laughHK does not understand these things. The context of 2 pet3....the word usward:laugh:....no he does not grasp these concepts....soon he will accuse you of being heretical:wavey:

So the Calvinist says, Icon. Have you read the whole chapter or do you just concentrate on that one verse, even that one word "usward" as your "get-out-of-jail free" card? Instead of understanding the scriptures in a rational way you just mimic the Calvinist line??

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Is Peter talking about salvation here?

What has Peter been talking about in this chapter?
--in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
-the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (The Flood)
--the heavens and the earth, by the same word are...reserved unto fire.
-- the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.
--the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (the dissolution of the entire universe)
--Therefore: ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
-- Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God
--they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

What a list of subjects are included in this chapter and that is not even all of them. And the Calvinist is going to insist that either Peter is not talking about salvation in verse 9 because he must be addressing to the elect and the elect don't need to be saved.

It is evident that those things that are mentioned in this chapter are directed to all of mankind: both elect and non-elect regardless of one's interpretation of "usward."
He speaks of: scoffers, the destruction of the world in the Flood, the future destruction of the world and the universe by fire, false teachers who are unlearned and unstable wresting the scripture to their own destruction, etc. These are all "to usward" aren't they?
All of these subjects are addressed to "the elect."

It is evident Peter can address both saved and unsaved in verse 9. If not, there is a serious contradiction. The phrase “longsuffering to us-ward” cannot be addressed to only the elect. It must include all mankind.
If it doesn't, then the following phrase, “not willing that any should perish” must apply to only the elect. But of course you know better than that. It doesn't refer to the elect but all mankind. Perishing doesn't affect the elect whatsoever!

Are you sure you have studied this chapter before?

 

[SovereignGrace]

So the Calvinist says, Icon. Have you read the whole chapter or do you just concentrate on that one verse, even that one word "usward" as your "get-out-of-jail free" card? Instead of understanding the scriptures in a rational way you just mimic the Calvinist line??

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Is Peter talking about salvation here?

What has Peter been talking about in this chapter?
--in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
-the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished: (The Flood)
--the heavens and the earth, by the same word are...reserved unto fire.
-- the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.
--the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. (the dissolution of the entire universe)
--Therefore: ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
-- Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God
--they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

What a list of subjects are included in this chapter and that is not even all of them. And the Calvinist is going to insist that either Peter is not talking about salvation in verse 9 because he must be addressing to the elect and the elect don't need to be saved.

It is evident that those things that are mentioned in this chapter are directed to all of mankind: both elect and non-elect regardless of one's interpretation of "usward."
He speaks of: scoffers, the destruction of the world in the Flood, the future destruction of the world and the universe by fire, false teachers who are unlearned and unstable wresting the scripture to their own destruction, etc. These are all "to usward" aren't they?
All of these subjects are addressed to "the elect."

It is evident Peter can address both saved and unsaved in verse 9. If not, there is a serious contradiction. The phrase “longsuffering to us-ward” cannot be addressed to only the elect. It must include all mankind.
If it doesn't, then the following phrase, “not willing that any should perish” must apply to only the elect. But of course you know better than that. It doesn't refer to the elect but all mankind. Perishing doesn't affect the elect whatsoever!

Are you sure you have studied this chapter before?

This is who Peter is addressing:

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

The bible was written to believers and not unbelievers. The bible was written to the regenerate and not the unregenerate.


The lost have no desire to read the bible. It's only after God has efficaciously wrought a work upon the heart of a sinner that they exercise faith and repentance, and not before.

 

[DHK]

And those that responded in faith were of the chosen. Look at how they believed. They believed through the word of God. God sent Jonah to Ninevah to tell them it would be destroyed. They repented and God repented and did not destroy it. Rahab had heard and as it states in Roman 10:17, Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

Some believed and some didn't. When Jonah preached it appears that all repented. 100 years later when Nahum went to the same nation and preached to Nineveh, they didn't repent and judgment came. Why the difference? God doesn't force one to believe, or force his salvation on anyone. In the time of Nahum, they FREELY rejected Him. It was their choice, as much as in the generation of Jonah it was their choice to repent. God didn't force his salvation on them.
Ruth chose to follow the Lord; Orpah chose to reject. Both came from the same background.
Rahab chose to believe. All had the same internet, TV's, media outlets, etc. But she was the only one that believed. It was her choice. God didn't force her, and didn't force the rest not to believe.

All of this flowed from the word of God being heard.

Very true.
There are many missionaries and mission programs with various purposes.
Wycliffe is one of them (just as one example).
Here is their stated purpose:

To see a Bible translation program in progress in every language still needing one by 2025.

Worldwide, active Scripture translation and/or linguistic development is underway in 2,195 languages spanning approximately 130 countries. We rejoice in the progress being made, but greater acceleration is needed to provide God's life-changing Word for every language group. - See more at: https://www.wycliffe.ca/wycliffe/about_us/?overview#sthash.gkfT94nL.dpuf

The Word of God already covers most of this world. Accessibility is there for most people, if the desire is there.

They were none of His sheep. but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.(John 10:26)

You are taking that verse out of context. I disagree with your theology.

Yes to the first. No to the last.

The question was:

The better question to ask yourself is: Has everyone that has desired to know about Jesus "known about Jesus?"
Would God refuse anyone?

So, if God would not refuse anyone, then he would make sure that person would be able to hear the Word and be saved. He has done that in the past and will continue to do so in the future. I believe Cornelius is such an example. He was a Roman centurion. He only knew some revelation that came from the Jews. He wanted to know more. God himself gave him more and then sent Peter to give him the actual message.
Does God act in ways similar to that?
Missionaries can testify to similar stories.

Here's a question I ask to further us along. Is anyone saved without the word of God either being preached or used in witnessing to lost souls?

No one is saved without the Word of God.

 

[DHK]

This is who Peter is addressing:

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ,

To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

2 Grace and peace be yours in abundance through the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord.

The bible was written to believers and not unbelievers. The bible was written to the regenerate and not the unregenerate.


The lost have no desire to read the bible. It's only after God has efficaciously wrought a work upon the heart of a sinner that they exercise faith and repentance, and not before.

I never said the Bible was not written to believers.
The entire epistle of Romans is a treatise on the topic of salvation written to the saints at Rome. Did they all need to be saved??
Of course not!
Even believers need to be taught about salvation.
The very idea that "usward" is included in 2Pet.3:9 negates the truth of the verse teaching about salvation is absurd.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I'll do my best to address both of your last two posts in this one.


If you will notice in the four gospels, Christ uses a lot of definitive words that have very powerful meanings.


All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.[Jn. 6:37]


Here we can read where Jesus stated that all those the Father had given Him come to Me. Not they can come to me of their own volition, of their own free will, of their own choosing, &c. They will come to Him when He chooses to quicken that sinner from a dead state of sin into a living hope. Peter states it like this;

Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,

To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, 2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.

Praise to God for a Living Hope

3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, 5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. [i Peter 1:1-5]


We were passive in this new birth(quickened by the Spirit) just as we were in a natural birth. There was nothing we did in the regenerative power of the Spirit. In this quickening, we now produce faith and repentance as a product of this quickening work wrought upon the heart of a sinner.

Getting back to that word 'come' that Jesus used in Jn. 6:37 for a minute. Here was one way it was used according to www.blueletterbible.org:

to come to one, i.e. to seek an intimacy with one, become his follower: to come upon one (unexpectedly)

Notice one meaning was to seek an intimacy with one. Jesus draws a sinner in such a way via the Spirit that they seek an intimate relationship with Him. That's why it's referred to as an effectual calling. Then in John 6:44 He emphasizes this; No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. He is showing that it takes the drawing of the Spirit(I am quite sure we are in agreement here) to bring one to Christ. However, you reject the notion one comes unless they choose to. You are welcome to whatever belief you hold do. I disagree with that notion, and here is why. In Jn. 6:44 Jesus uses another definitive word 'draw'. The Greek meanings of that word are I.to draw, drag off, to draw by inward power, lead, impel.

So all His sheep will come to Him seeking an intimate relationship with Him, and none of those seeking an intimate relationship with Him will He drive away.(Jn. 6:37)

No one can seek an intimate relationship with Me unless the Father which sent Me, draws him by an inward power.(Jn. 6:44)


Another definitive word is 'will' in Jn 6:44. He said He will raise them up at the last day. There are differing meanings to that word, but they all mean pretty much the same, raise up from laying down, to raise up from the dead, to raise up, cause to be born, to cause to appear, bring forward.


So if Jesus truly draws all into an intimate relationship with alll, by mere implication, all will be saved.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Now to expound even further on the word 'come' that is also used in Jn. 6:45:
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Here are some of the uses of the word 'come': to come into being, arise, come forth, show itself, find place or influence; be established, become known, to come (fall) into or unto, to go, to follow one.


Not all will 'learn of God', neither be 'taught of God'. When the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock in 1620, the natives there did not know anything about Jesus because they never heard of Him. Of those of who died prior to the Pilgrims settling at Plymouth, if those who are taught about Jesus are the ones who come to Him, then how could they be saved? They did not even have a bible to read. Here is a link to John Eliot, who preached to the Indians in the mid-to-late 1600's: http://www.greatsite.com/timeline-english-bible-history/john-eliot.html


Then here is another article speaking about how the Pilgrims tried to convert the native Indians into Christians: http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/...dians-in-the-early-days-of-america-11808.html


It takes the preaching and/or witnessing of the gospel to save people(I know you already agreed with me ). If they, or any other peoples died before knowing Jesus, they died lost.


To finish up on Jn. 6:45: It could be written everyone who has heard Father and learned from Him 'is to come into being' or 'will arise', or 'will come forth', or 'will show itself', or 'will find place or influence', or 'will be established', or 'will become known', or 'will come (fall) into or unto', or 'to follow one(Me)'.

All of those renderings are in definitive terms with definitive actions that actually take place.

When God begins a work in the heart of a sinner, He will finish the job.

 

[beameup]

Interesting how you "invent" the foundational doctrine: "The Church has replaced Israel",
then you "build" other "doctrines" to prop-up your 4th Century Catholic Church "foundation".
Sort of reminds me of building a giant sandcastle at low tide, and then watching the
incoming waves erode it as you desperately attempt to "prop-up" your "castle".

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul
also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles,
speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrestle,
as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16

 

[SovereignGrace]

Interesting how you "invent" the foundational doctrine: "The Church has replaced Israel",
then you "build" other "doctrines" to prop-up your 4th Century Catholic Church "foundation".
Sort of reminds me of building a giant sandcastle at low tide, and then watching the
incoming waves erode it as you desperately attempt to "prop-up" your "castle".

And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul
also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles,
speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood,
which they that are unlearned and unstable wrestle,
as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Peter 3:15-16

Do we, the New Covenant church receive these?


Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.[Is. 55:3]

And


The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.[Gal. 3:16]

 

[beameup]

Do we, the New Covenant church receive these?


Give ear and come to me;
listen, that you may live.
I will make an everlasting covenant with you,
my faithful love promised to David.[Is. 55:3]

And


The promises were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ.[Gal. 3:16]

Sounds like a rhetorical question. Why don't you answer it yourself?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sounds like a rhetorical question. Why don't you answer it yourself?

I think we do in accordance to those verses I posted. I was asking for your input to further the discussion.

 

[OldRegular]

I think we do in accordance to those verses I posted. I was asking for your input to further the discussion.

All you ever get from beameup is some hyper-dispensational mantra! Huuummmmnn! Huuummmmnn! Huuummmmnn!