"the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever"

[DHK]

So if Jesus truly draws all into an intimate relationship with alll, by mere implication, all will be saved.

Jesus said:
John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
One of the results of His resurrection was giving the opportunity for all men to be saved. Here, "all" means "all." It does not speak of the elect. Eisegesis not permitted.

I am not going to get into a Cal/Arm debate with you here in this forum. There is another forum for that. Take it there.
Please don't derail this thread into Calvinism.

 

[DHK]

So who will preach Jesus Christ, and him crucified. {1 Corinthians 2:2} after the Church is "snatched" or "taken by force" out of this world!

During the Great Tribulation it is a time of God's wrath being poured out on the ungodly of this world, on the Antichrist and his followers. The believer is "not appointed unto wrath," and thus the rapture. There is no need for the gospel to be preached, for as it says:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12... they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved...And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth.

It plainly says that no one will be saved. God will send them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie--the lie that the Antichrist is god.

 

[beameup]

During the Great Tribulation it is a time of God's wrath being poured out on the ungodly of this world, on the Antichrist and his followers. The believer is "not appointed unto wrath," and thus the rapture. There is no need for the gospel to be preached, for as it says:

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12... they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved...And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth.

It plainly says that no one will be saved. God will send them a strong delusion that they should believe a lie--the lie that the Antichrist is god.

Amen!

Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, (ie: miracles) 2 Thes 2:9

 

[BrotherJoseph]

[
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:26-27

Pretty simple and straight-forward. Body of Christ completed>>> Israel saved. Israel becomes a Nation of Priests and serves Messiah in Israel

Brother beammeup,

The "all Israel" that will be saved mentioned in Romans 11:26 is all of God's elect (both the remant according to election of the Jew and also the Gentile).
This is precisely what the apostle had already expressed in plain language , "Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham." (Galatians 3:7). "29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise" (Galatians 3:29) The same truth is taught plainly earlier in Romans in 4:13-16, "13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"

The body is composed of the believing "remnant" of the natural Israel (the "remnant according to the election of grace" Romans 11:5) with the addition thereto of believing Gentiles. This is why Paul says, "...For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel" (Romans 9:6). The next two verses make the matter still cleared. We read, "7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Romans 9:7-8).

Paul returns to the matter that was causing him such acute sorrow, namely that, as Isaiah had prophesied, "27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved: (Romans 9:27)

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

[Iconoclast]

Two points:
1. You don't "win" by labeling a legitimate theological position heresy and attempting to be done with it.
2. Scholarly opinion across the generations affirms the proper view of Israel as being replaced by the Church. The goal of Jesus was not to come and build the new Israel but that He would call together the true Israel.



And this is entirely false. The proper view, the honest view of supersessionism is that the Church has replaced Israel as the conveyors of salvation to the world and it is by the blood of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, who grants this new Covenant to the world.

Attempting to slander and libel a theological position by conflating it with Islam is a fool's errand and entirely uncharitable. If for no other reason than Muhammed isn't the Messiah, Jesus Christ is.

If you're going to attempt to critique a theological position, starting in disingenuity and libel isn't a good method.

:applause::applause::applause::thumbs: Everyone sees this error on display. It is a dishonest attempt to answer real teaching.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

So the Calvinist says, Icon. Have you read the whole chapter

I have not only read the whole chapter...but indeed the whole book so I know what you say is false and misguided.
In fact everyone else see's this also. PreachingJesus, SG, Gtim, OR,your error is in neon lights......except for your disciple...beamup:laugh:

or do you just concentrate on that one verse, even that one word "usward"

everyone else focused on it as you sought to avoid it.

as your "get-out-of-jail free" card? Instead of understanding the scriptures in a rational way you just mimic the Calvinist line??

We just read these scriptures with understanding. It remains a mystery to you.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Is Peter talking about salvation here?

What has Peter been talking about in this chapter?[/QUOTE

Peter has contrasted the destruction of the ungodly scoffers, with the long suffering of God who is saving all of the elect.:wavey:

Not one person that God has elected will be lost. Every elect person will become saved in time.

And the Calvinist is going to insist that either Peter is not talking about salvation in verse 9 because he must be addressing to the elect and the elect don't need to be saved.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of God's electing grace in saving sinners. Your struggle to come to grips with truth continues. You have missed it again, but you vainly boast and try to lecture these men who do see it:laugh:

It is evident that those things that are mentioned in this chapter are directed to all of mankind: both elect and non-elect regardless of one's interpretation of "usward."

This word clarifies it for everyone except you!

He speaks of: scoffers, the destruction of the world in the Flood, the future destruction of the world and the universe by fire, false teachers who are unlearned and unstable wresting the scripture to their own destruction, etc. These are all "to usward" aren't they?

No...those who remain in Adam are not coming to the wedding feast, they are not included.

All of these subjects are addressed to "the elect."

sure...SG explained it to you.....it is written to comfort the elect.

It is evident Peter can address both saved and unsaved in verse 9. If not, there is a serious contradiction. The phrase “longsuffering to us-ward” cannot be addressed to only the elect.[/QUOTE]

Yes it is;
Peter says it right in this chapter;

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Where did paul write this? right here;

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

It must include all mankind.

The gospel goes worldwide, but not every person is included...only those;


that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory



If everyone was included no distinction would need to be made now, would it???

If it doesn't, then the following phrase, “not willing that any should perish” must apply to only the elect

.

It is exactly teaching that NOT ONE who God has elected will by any means perish...ALL WILL COME TO REPENTANCE
...because God has ordained that very thing:thumbsup:

Are you sure you have studied this chapter before?

Oh yes...in fact I have posted this kind of response 4-5 times in the past few months, yet you ignore such posts as you cling to your error as preaching jesus said to you.....

 

[DHK]

Not one person that God has elected will be lost. Every elect person will become saved in time.

I have to laugh every time I read this statement or one similar to it. There are plenty of them made by you, Rippon, OR and many of the other Calvinists here.

"Not one person God has elected will be lost."

Such a profound statement.

Not one child born to my wife and I will be my neighbor's child.
I can think up a lot of these "profound" statements.

Not one article written by Dave Hunt will ever be written by John Piper.

Not one apple on my apple tree will ever turn into a grapefruit.

The stone buried in the back yard will never grow into a tree.

(very deep, very profound, have to think it through Icon. There must be some loophole somewhere?????)

 

[DHK]

DHK

I have not only read the whole chapter...but indeed the whole book so I know what you say is false and misguided.

Name-calling is the attribute of the one who has no argument.

In fact everyone else see's this also. PreachingJesus, SG, Gtim, OR,your error is in neon lights......except for your disciple...beamup:laugh:

Again, name-calling and laughing and scorn are the qualities of the one who has no argument, no debate.

We just read these scriptures with understanding. It remains a mystery to you.

If you truly understood what God was saying you would realize that:
1. He is not willing that any should perish.
2. That all should come to repentance.
3. That Peter is not concerned about his readers either repenting or perishing but rather the lost who need the gospel and are not yet saved. The lost will not get saved without believers giving them the gospel.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Is Peter talking about salvation here?

Repentance is the flip side of faith. That being the case both are essential in salvation. So the answer is yes.

What has Peter been talking about in this chapter?[/QUOTE
I gave you an entire list, a summary of the chapter. Did you read it?

Peter has contrasted the destruction of the ungodly scoffers, with the long suffering of God who is saving all of the elect.

How many times did Peter come out and actually use the word "elect" in this chapter, or are you simply reading into the chapter your Calvinism?

Not one person that God has elected will be lost. Every elect person will become saved in time.

When I turn my stove on it gets hot.

This shows a complete lack of understanding of God's electing grace in saving sinners. Your struggle to come to grips with truth continues. You have missed it again, but you vainly boast and try to lecture these men who do see it:laugh:

Again, name-calling, laughing, and degrading a person only shows an inability to debate.
You have not only answered condescendingly and arrogantly; you contradicted yourself.
Here is what I posted:

And the Calvinist is going to insist that either Peter is not talking about salvation in verse 9 because he must be addressing to the elect and the elect don't need to be saved.
--Notice just above you denied that Peter was talking about salvation just as I said in this post!
--Notice you assert that Peter is talking to the elect just as I affirmed.
--Notice when you put these two premises together that it becomes the reason you give that Peter can't be talking about all mankind in 3:9 ("all should come to repentance; "none should perish.")
And yet your first premise is wrong and your conclusion is wrong.
But you don't know how to debate, just answer in a condescending tone with great arrogance, laughing and sometimes name-calling. That is not debate.

No...those who remain in Adam are not coming to the wedding feast, they are not included.

Aaah, so he does talk about the "non-elect," and does sometimes refer to all mankind. Just not in 3:9 where the Calvinist says: "no, no, my Calvinist beliefs do not allow "all mankind" to be interpreted there."

It is evident Peter can address both saved and unsaved in verse 9. If not, there is a serious contradiction. The phrase “longsuffering to us-ward” cannot be addressed to only the elect.

Yes it is;

No it can't

If you had read what I said:
The phrase “longsuffering to us-ward” cannot be addressed to only the elect. It must include all mankind.
...If it doesn't, then the following phrase, “not willing that any should perish” must apply to only the elect.
So God is not willing that the elect should perish? or that any man should perish? Which is it? I thought you believed in eternal security. Is God concerned about the elect perishing?

Peter says it right in this chapter;

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

Where did paul write this? right here;

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

By your own quotation God is longsuffering to vessels of wrath.
Does that describe the "elect"?

The gospel goes worldwide, but not every person is included...only those;

The gospel goes worldwide because the gospel is for all the world.
"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature."
Those were the words of Jesus. The gospel was for every creature in the world.

that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory


If everyone was included no distinction would need to be made now, would it???
.
It is exactly teaching that NOT ONE who God has elected will by any means perish...ALL WILL COME TO REPENTANCE
...because God has ordained that very thing.

God's predestination is based on his foreknowledge (omniscience) of those who will trust him by faith. Therefore election is applicable to the believer because the Lord already knows them who will believe.

Oh yes...in fact I have posted this kind of response 4-5 times in the past few months, yet you ignore such posts as you cling to your error as preaching jesus said to you.....

No debate here either; just arrogance and condescension.

 

[Iconoclast]

evidently that's as deep as I need to go because the truth eludes you so you try to make a joke out of the post that you cannot answer .

where Peter shows what what the long suffering is .results in salvation for those God has chosen to save
I mean its just as deep as I need to go but apparently t you can't receive it you can't welcome

 

[Iconoclast]

no one called you any names al I did was speak about what you posted
what you posted might have sounded like an obscenity because the posting was so bad
correct observation on the nature of your posts is not name calling

 

[DHK]

evidently that's as deep as I need to go because the truth eludes you so you try to make a joke out of the post that you cannot answer .

where Peter shows what what the long suffering is .results in salvation for those God has chosen to save
I mean its just as deep as I need to go but apparently t you can't receive it you can't welcome

As you quoted, Paul also showed that his "longsuffering" also resulted in "vessels of wrath." It works both ways doesn't it?

 

[Iconoclast]

As you quoted, Paul also showed that his "longsuffering" also resulted in "vessels of wrath." It works both ways doesn't it?

no the long suffering of God does not result in vessels of wrath Paul said God endured vessels of Wrath...so that the elect could be saved:wavey:

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,

I started a thread in the Cal v. Arm thread about 'all' and 'ever' and 'world', &c.


http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=100235