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A carryover thread from 'The Children whom God hath given me .'

revmwc

Well-Known Member
And in speaking to the whole church at Corinth he said "I brothers not was able to talk to you as to spirituals (Pnuematikokos) but as to Fleshes (sarkikos)as to minors in anointed (Christ)." Straight from Greek to English. They were Brothers in Christ but Paul could not speak to them as Pnuematikokos (Spiritual) but as Sarkikos (Carnal). As Babes or minors in Christ (Anointed). Clearly the original language shows the church in Corinth was walking in sin as believers. They were not however unbelievers for we Paul did not call them, Soulish (psuchikos) or natural men as 1 Corinthians 2:14 states about the unsaved.

The original shows three types, Saved and walking in the Spirit, Saved and walking in the Flesh and the third is unsaved natural and soulish.

Very clear in the original language to the English Language three types of men in two groups, saved and unsaved.

We see too in 2 Peter 2 verse 12 the word again Psuchikos in which Peter states "as natural (phusika) brut beasts, again the psuchikos man or unbeliever.

1 Corinthians 15:46 we again see Paul make the distinction between the believer walking in the Spirit and the unbeliever.

"Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual (pnumatikon), but that which is natural (psuchikon); and afterward that which is spiritual."

The sarkikon is not mentioned here we only see them when Paul says ye are carnal.

We see again Romans 8:6 For to be carnally (sarkos) minded is death; but to be spiritually (pnuematos) minded is life and peace.

Here speaking to believers, so belivers can be carnally minded that is following the Old Sin Nature and thus fleshly or they can be following the Holy Spirit and be Filled with the Spirit or walking in the Spirit.

The Greek bears out three types in two divisions.
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
Two types, saved or lost, dead or alive, condemned or justified, and not three, monsieur. Jesus said So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth. There are no three types. You are either saved or lost, alive or dead, atoned for or unatoned for, exalted or humbled, monsieur.

Which one of the seven deaths do you refer too?
1. Physical
2. Spiritual
3. Positional
4. Not able to physically reproduce
5. Second
6. Temporal
7. Operational
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
The Corinthians? Plural? Wrong, mon ami, wrong. Corinthian, singular. Maybe plural IF the fornicator's step-mother was also a member, but I do not think the passage let's us know one way or other if she was a member. Paul was bashing the church for this issue not dealt with. Yes. But he was referring to those who were goats in their midst. After this issue is resolved, Paul writes his second letter to them rejoicing in what took place.
Suppose your best friend committed adultery. That is a sin. Suppose the place at which he worked urged him on in an affair and told him not to go back to his wife, told to keep on committing this affair. In fact they all laughed about it, and were proud of him for that he was able to step out and be so "liberated."
This is what had happened. The whole church was involved. There was one sin of immorality. But it was a continuous sin that had gone on as in an affair. It had to stop. The Corinthians were somehow proud and puffed up about it. It was a horrible sin that not even the Gentiles would commit. But in some deranged and horrible way the Corinthians were proud for the immoral conduct of this man "as a whole group."
They all had to repent.
They all had to come together as a church.
They all had to put this man out that the leaven spread no further than it already had.

The Sin:
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

(YLT) and ye are having been puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he may be removed out of the midst of you who did this work,
The "Ye" points to the members of the church. It is plural.
The "having been puffed up" shows that it has been going on for some time.

(ISV) And you are being arrogant instead of being filled with grief and seeing to it that the man who did this is removed from among you.

The Command of Paul:
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
It was if they were to come together as in a business meeting to deal with this very specific problem. They as a church had to do with, though Paul had already commanded them. He told them what the judgment should be. They had been to carnal to figure this out for themselves.
He was to be excommunicated.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
--He was to be delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh. There would be no spiritual wall of protection about him which the local church should be providing. They would have no fellowship with them. He would be to them as a heathen and a publican (Mat.18:16,17).

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
--They, (the church as a whole) gloried in his sin. It was not good.

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
--Therefore they were to purge out the old leaven, the sin that was among them.
We have no idea if this was a problem of extended time or not. But in lieu of other passages I posted, his repentance shows me it was a sin addressed very quickly by repentance of that fornicator via the Spirit.
The tense of the verb tells us that it was going on for some time.
They had been glorying or gloating of this continuous action.

Verse one gives the idea not of a one time action but of a relationship. Some commentaries go so far as to think that it was a marriage.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
revmwc


Only if you ignore Paul.



They were all Carnal Paul clearly states.

We too have clear Greek to English that shows 3

In 1st Corinthians 3 we have the believers seen, (pveumatikos) Pnuematikos, spiritual, walking with the filling of the Spirit, and the (sarkikos) carnal a believer walking in the flesh.


Now listen to those who actually know what they are talking about;
https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2002/are-there-carnal-christians/

The Corinthian Christians from various causes had not gone forward in sanctification as they should and their growth in spiritual understanding was so stunted that he had to speak unto them “as unto carnal,” with almost the same degree of simplicity as he would declare God’s truth to the unsaved. The Greek word translated “carnal” used in verse one is significantly different from the one used twice in verse 3 also translated “carnal.” The first is sarkinos and the second and third are sarkikos. There is little difference, but Thayer tells us that the first is the more emphatic. We believe the first refers to the unsaved. Their position and the principle governing may still be “spiritual” but he must speak to them as though to the carnal (sarkinos). “I fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not yet able: nay, not even now are ye able.” Obviously it is a matter of growth, which has been unduly arrested. Babies have life, but weak digestion. Then he goes on to say: “For ye are yet carnal (sarkikos) for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are you not carnal
(sarkikos) and walk according to man?” This carnal (sarkikos) is not speaking of a principle, or of a state that is irremediable, but of an outcropping of a special manifestation of the flesh – jealousy and strife resulting in sectarian cliquishness. In using the interrogative form, he calls on them to judge the evil themselves. It could be paraphrased
positively: “You are acting in a carnal manner, in that you are allowing this spirit of jealousy and strife to spring up, which is shown by one saying, ‘I am Paul’s man’ and another ‘I am of Apollos’ etc. All such acts are nothing but carnality, and like the men of the world.”[/QUOTE
]


http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_carnal.htm
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
revmwc





Now listen to those who actually know what they are talking about;
https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2002/are-there-carnal-christians/

The Corinthian Christians from various causes had not gone forward in sanctification as they should and their growth in spiritual understanding was so stunted that he had to speak unto them “as unto carnal,” with almost the same degree of simplicity as he would declare God’s truth to the unsaved. The Greek word translated “carnal” used in verse one is significantly different from the one used twice in verse 3 also translated “carnal.” The first is sarkinos and the second and third are sarkikos. There is little difference, but Thayer tells us that the first is the more emphatic. We believe the first refers to the unsaved. Their position and the principle governing may still be “spiritual” but he must speak to them as though to the carnal (sarkinos). “I fed you with milk, not with meat: for ye were not yet able: nay, not even now are ye able.” Obviously it is a matter of growth, which has been unduly arrested. Babies have life, but weak digestion. Then he goes on to say: “For ye are yet carnal (sarkikos) for whereas there is among you jealousy and strife, are you not carnal
(sarkikos) and walk according to man?” This carnal (sarkikos) is not speaking of a principle, or of a state that is irremediable, but of an outcropping of a special manifestation of the flesh – jealousy and strife resulting in sectarian cliquishness. In using the interrogative form, he calls on them to judge the evil themselves. It could be paraphrased
positively: “You are acting in a carnal manner, in that you are allowing this spirit of jealousy and strife to spring up, which is shown by one saying, ‘I am Paul’s man’ and another ‘I am of Apollos’ etc. All such acts are nothing but carnality, and like the men of the world.”[/QUOTE
]


http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_carnal.htm

The Greek word translated “carnal” used in verse one is significantly different from the one used twice in verse 3 also translated “carnal.”
"We believe the first refers to the unsaved."

And the second??
"It could be paraphrased positively: “You are acting in a carnal manner, in that you are allowing this spirit of jealousy and strife to spring up..."

The Scripture being examined:
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Icon agrees with teaching that though Paul calls the Corinthians "brethren" (or brothers in Christ) in verse one, just a few words later in the SAME verse Paul calls the Carnal, in the sense that they are unsaved.
How can they be unsaved and brothers in Christ at the same time??
Obviously, the explanation given is inadequate; or just plain wrong.

He then goes on to explain that the second two usages of carnal in verses 3 refer "a carnal manner," as in causing strife. They could be believers. In the matter of two verses the same people are being addressed as brothers but the first verse are referred to as unsaved brothers and the third verse refers to them as carnal brothers. What a contradiction. This man needs to take a course in hermeneutics--properly interpreting the Word of God. It doesn't need to be interpreted through the eyes of Calvin or the Reformers. Study to show yourselves approved unto God.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
revmwc





Now listen to those who actually know what they are talking about;
https://banneroftruth.org/us/resources/articles/2002/are-there-carnal-christians/



The Greek word translated “carnal” used in verse one is significantly different from the one used twice in verse 3 also translated “carnal.”
"We believe the first refers to the unsaved."

And the second??
"It could be paraphrased positively: “You are acting in a carnal manner, in that you are allowing this spirit of jealousy and strife to spring up..."

The Scripture being examined:
1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Icon agrees with teaching that though Paul calls the Corinthians "brethren" (or brothers in Christ) in verse one, just a few words later in the SAME verse Paul calls the Carnal, in the sense that they are unsaved.
How can they be unsaved and brothers in Christ at the same time??
Obviously, the explanation given is inadequate; or just plain wrong.

He then goes on to explain that the second two usages of carnal in verses 3 refer "a carnal manner," as in causing strife. They could be believers. In the matter of two verses the same people are being addressed as brothers but the first verse are referred to as unsaved brothers and the third verse refers to them as carnal brothers. What a contradiction. This man needs to take a course in hermeneutics--properly interpreting the Word of God. It doesn't need to be interpreted through the eyes of Calvin or the Reformers. Study to show yourselves approved unto God.

Both the messages offered in my link show the correct meaning of the words and what the passage means.
Everyone who has taken the time to listen to the messages knows what the passage teaches now, instead of the false teaching that you and rmac cling to:wavey::thumbsup::wavey:

the truth is here;
http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_carnal.htm
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
Both the messages offered in my link show the correct meaning of the words and what the passage means.
Everyone who has taken the time to listen to the messages knows what the passage teaches now, instead of the false teaching that you and rmac cling to:wavey::thumbsup::wavey:

the truth is here;
http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_carnal.htm

ICON, it is a shame you call what Paul taught false teaching. Vines states this about the word Sakikos.

VINES:
The Corinthians saints were making no progress, but they were not anti-spiritual in respect of the particular point with which the Apostle was there dealing. vv 3,4 they are charged with being sarkikos.

So there again "Fleshly Believers."

Strongs Concordance for 1 Corinthians 3:1, 3-4,
Sarkikos = Fleshly.

1 Corinthians 3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

3 And I, brethren, was not able to speak to you as to spiritual, but as to fleshly -- as to babes in Christ;

2 with milk I fed you, and not with meat, for ye were not yet able, but not even yet are ye now able,

3 for yet ye are fleshly, for where [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not fleshly, and in the manner of men do walk?

4 for when one may say, `I, indeed, am of Paul;' and another, `I -- of Apollos;' are ye not fleshly?

"Sarkikos" Fleshly believers according to Vines, Strong's Concordance and Young's Literal translation. Yet you say Paul wrote a false teaching attributing the term Sarkikos the original meaning "fleshly" to Paul writing a false teaching.
 
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revmwc

Well-Known Member
=Iconoclast;2242940]Both the messages offered in my link show the correct meaning of the words and what the passage means.
Everyone who has taken the time to listen to the messages knows what the passage teaches now, instead of the false teaching that you and rmac cling to
Both the messages offered in my link show the correct meaning of the words and what the passage means.
Everyone who has taken the time to listen to the messages knows what the passage teaches now, instead of the false teaching that you and rmac cling to:wavey::thumbsup::wavey:

the truth is here;
http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_carnal.htm

Who preached them?
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Suppose your best friend committed adultery. That is a sin. Suppose the place at which he worked urged him on in an affair and told him not to go back to his wife, told to keep on committing this affair. In fact they all laughed about it, and were proud of him for that he was able to step out and be so "liberated."

That is something that happened around the water cooler(work) and not the church mon ami. I am referring to your scenario you just used here. That is a non sequitor.

This is what had happened. The whole church was involved.

I do not think the narrative bears this out mon ami. As Paul wrote them It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? For my part, even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. As one who is present with you in this way, I have already passed judgment in the name of our Lord Jesus on the one who has been doing this. So when you are assembled and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, hand this man over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, so that his spirit may be saved on the day of the Lord.[1 Cor. 5:1-5] The And you are proud is Paul addressing the church en toto, en masse, singling out the goats in their midst. He wrote the letter to the whole church. Yes. I am not denying that. But not everyone was abusing the Lord's table, not everyone was taking others to court, not everyone had their father's wife, &c.



There was one sin of immorality. But it was a continuous sin that had gone on as in an affair.

I am not sure it was a continuous affair or not. Maybe, maybe not.

It had to stop.

Yes.

The Corinthians were somehow proud and puffed up about it. It was a horrible sin that not even the Gentiles would commit. But in some deranged and horrible way the Corinthians were proud for the immoral conduct of this man "as a whole group."

Again monsieur, there may have been some proud of it as Paul stated it, but to say the 'whole church' was is quite the stretch, in my opinion. Yes it was a horrible sin.

They all had to repent.
They all had to come together as a church.
They all had to put this man out that the leaven spread no further than it already had.


The wrongdoers had to repent, but the 'whole church' did not. If they were not guilty of the sin, they had no reason to.


The Sin:
1Co 5:1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

(YLT) and ye are having been puffed up, and did not rather mourn, that he may be removed out of the midst of you who did this work,
The "Ye" points to the members of the church. It is plural.
The "having been puffed up" shows that it has been going on for some time.

(ISV) And you are being arrogant instead of being filled with grief and seeing to it that the man who did this is removed from among you.

Again, you are making blanket statements, stating that the whole church had their hands in the cookie jar. The narrative does not bear that fruit, mon ami. He was singling out the wrongdoers.


The Command of Paul:
1Co 5:3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
1Co 5:4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
It was if they were to come together as in a business meeting to deal with this very specific problem. They as a church had to do with, though Paul had already commanded them. He told them what the judgment should be. They had been to carnal to figure this out for themselves.
He was to be excommunicated.

Yes.

1Co 5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.
--He was to be delivered unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh. There would be no spiritual wall of protection about him which the local church should be providing. They would have no fellowship with them. He would be to them as a heathen and a publican (Mat.18:16,17).

Yes.

1Co 5:6 Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?
--They, (the church as a whole) gloried in his sin. It was not good.

The wrongdoers gloried in it, mon ami.

1Co 5:7 Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
--Therefore they were to purge out the old leaven, the sin that was among them.

I said this many posts ago, monsieur.

The tense of the verb tells us that it was going on for some time.
They had been glorying or gloating of this continuous action.

Verse one gives the idea not of a one time action but of a relationship. Some commentaries go so far as to think that it was a marriage.

We know that that sin had occurred. But none of know for how long it did. If you take into account all the other passages I have shown you, a Christian can not continue sinning. 1 John 3 states that as biblical fact. For his repentance and subsequent allowance back in to the church, it had to be a short time from the time that it took place in.
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
Both the messages offered in my link show the correct meaning of the words and what the passage means.
Everyone who has taken the time to listen to the messages knows what the passage teaches now, instead of the false teaching that you and rmac cling to:wavey::thumbsup::wavey:

the truth is here;
http://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/am_carnal.htm

Here is Calvin:
Hence, with the view of beating down so much the better their insolence, he declares, that they belong to the company of those who, stupefied by carnal sense, are not prepared to receive the spiritual wisdom of God.

Calvin's commentary on the Bible 1 Corinthians

John Gill in his commentary on 1 Corinthians 3:
not but that they had the Spirit of God in them, and a work of grace upon them; for they were, as the apostle afterwards says, the temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwelt in them; they were washed, sanctified, and justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God; but had not that spiritual discerning, or judgment in spiritual things, which some believers had, at least when the apostle was first with them; and now they were under great spiritual declensions, and had not those spiritual frames, nor that spiritual experience and conversation, which some other Christians had:

but as unto carnal: not that they were in a carnal state, as unregenerate men are; but had carnal conceptions of things, were in carnal frames of soul, and walked in a carnal conversation with each other; though they were not in the flesh, in a state of nature, yet the flesh was in them, and not only lusted against the Spirit, but was very predominant in them, and carried them captive, so that they are denominated from it:

Matthew Henry 1 Corinthians 3

Paul blames the Corinthians for their weakness and nonproficiency. Those who are sanctified are so only in part: there is still room for growth and increase both in grace and knowledge, 2 Peter 3:18. Those who through divine grace are renewed to a spiritual life may yet in many things be defective. The apostle tells them he could not speak to them as unto spiritual men, but as unto carnal men, as to babes in Christ, 1 Corinthians 3:1. They were so far from forming their maxims and measures upon the ground of divine revelation, and entering into the spirit of the gospel, that is was but too evident they were much under the command of carnal and corrupt affections... He blames them for their carnality, and mentions their contention and discord about their ministers as evidence of it: For you are yet carnal; for whereas there are among you envyings, and strifes, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Corinthians 3:3. They had mutual emulations, and quarrels, and factions among them, upon the account of their ministers, while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos, 1 Corinthians 3:4. These were proofs of their being carnal, that fleshly interests and affections too much swayed them. Note, Contentions and quarrels about religion are sad evidences of remaining carnality. True religion makes men peaceable and not contentious. Factious spirits act upon human principles, not upon principles of true religion; they are guided by their own pride and passions, and not by the rules of Christianity: Do you not walk as men? Note, It is to be lamented that many who should walk as Christians, that is, above the common rate of men, do indeed walk as men, live and act too much like other men

Robert Neighbor:

He blames them for their carnality, and mentions their contention and discord about their ministers as evidence of it: For you are yet carnal; for whereas there are among you envyings, and strifes, and divisions, are you not carnal, and walk as men? 1 Corinthians 3:3. They had mutual emulations, and quarrels, and factions among them, upon the account of their ministers, while one said, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos, 1 Corinthians 3:4. These were proofs of their being carnal, that fleshly interests and affections too much swayed them. Note, Contentions and quarrels about religion are sad evidences of remaining carnality. True religion makes men peaceable and not contentious. Factious spirits act upon human principles, not upon principles of true religion; they are guided by their own pride and passions, and not by the rules of Christianity: Do you not walk as men? Note, It is to be lamented that many who should walk as Christians, that is, above the common rate of men, do indeed walk as men, live and act too much like other men

Here again all these show two types of believers, Spiritual and Carnal. The unbeliever is called a natural man.

Thus 3 types of people in two groups. The two groups saved and unsaved. The three types
Pnuematikos-Spiritual or Spirit filled
Sarkikos-saved but walking in the flesh
Psuekikos-not saved and walking under the domination of the Old Sin Nature.

Paul made that real clear yet you say his teaching is a false teaching.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
I am not sure it was a continuous affair or not. Maybe, maybe not.
From Walvoord and Zuck's, "Bible Knowledge Commentary"
1Cor.5:1. The issue concerned a Corinthian Christian who was carrying on an incestuous affair with his stepmother, a relationship prohibited both in the OT (Lev.18:8; Deu.22:22) and in Roman law. The fact that Paul said nothing about disciplining the woman suggests that she was not a Christian.
5:2. The shameful situation did not seem to faze the Corinthians in the least. If anything, the affair may have even bloated their arrogant spirits. The godly response would have been grief for this brother (cf. 12:26; Gal.6:1-3), leading to discipline which would exclude him from intimacy with the congregation until he would repent (cf. Mat.18:15-17).

William MacDonald in "Bible Believer's Commentary"
1Cor.5:1 Apparently it had become widely reported that one of the men in the fellowship at Corinth had committed sexual immorality. Here it was a very extreme form of sin, one that was not even practiced among the ungodly Gentiles. Specifically, the sin was that this man had had illicit intercourse with his father's wife. The man's own mother had no doubt died and the father had married again. So his father's wife, in this case, would then refer to his step-mother. She was probably an unbeliever because nothing is said about taking action against her. The church did not have jurisdiction in her case.
Note that sexual immorality of all different kinds was practiced in Corinth.
What was horrid here was not just one sin, but the relationship--the affair.

From Adam Clarke:
There is fornication among you - The word πορνεια, which we translate fornication in this place, must be understood in its utmost latitude of meaning, as implying all kinds of impurity; for, that the Corinthians were notoriously guilty of every species of irregularity and debauch, we have already seen; and it is not likely that in speaking on this subject, in reference to a people so very notorious, he would refer to only one species of impurity, and that not the most flagitious.
That one should have his father’s wife - Commentators and critics have found great difficulties in this statement. One part of the case is sufficiently clear, that a man who professed Christianity had illegal connections with his father’s wife; but the principal question is, was his father alive or dead? Most think that the father was alive, and imagine that to this the apostle refers, 2Co_7:12, where, speaking of the person who did the wrong, he introduces also him who had suffered the wrong; which must mean the father and the father then alive. After all that has been said on this subject, I think it most natural to conclude that the person in question had married the wife of his deceased father, not his own mother, but stepmother, then a widow.
This was a crime which the text says was not so much as named among the Gentiles; the apostle must only mean that it was not accredited by them, for it certainly did often occur: but by their best writers who notice it, it was branded as superlatively infamous. Cicero styles it, scelus incredibile et inauditum, an incredible and unheard of wickedness; but it was heard of and practised; and there are several stories of this kind in heathen authors, but they reprobate not commend it.
Clarke has a very good interpretation. It was not just one sin, but an affair. The unsaved would not be aghast at just one sin, but a long-lasting relationship--a marriage with your own step-mother??? Horrible!! They don't even do that!!
In many places Paul condemns adultery and fornication, but this was far more serious. Why? Because it was an incestuous relationship
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
From Walvoord and Zuck's, "Bible Knowledge Commentary"


William MacDonald in "Bible Believer's Commentary"

Note that sexual immorality of all different kinds was practiced in Corinth.
What was horrid here was not just one sin, but the relationship--the affair.

From Adam Clarke:

Clarke has a very good interpretation. It was not just one sin, but an affair. The unsaved would not be aghast at just one sin, but a long-lasting relationship--a marriage with your own step-mother??? Horrible!! They don't even do that!!
In many places Paul condemns adultery and fornication, but this was far more serious. Why? Because it was an incestuous relationship

You may be right, but I am still not convinced. Not that I am being hard-headed or obstinate, but in light of 1 John 3, where John plainly said we can not continue sinning, I find it hard to believe this 'affair' was of a lengthy time. But again, you could be right.


Now, I have done a little studying about the Corinthian church at the time of this writing, and the church's size was rumored to be between 40-150. So if I go with the mean, it would put the church's numbers at 95 members.

Now, according to your view/understanding of what transpired, all 95 members knew what was going on and all were 'egging' it on. Whereas I believe that only a few knew about it. The other day we had to excommunicate two people. I was shocked about what I heard and had no clue what had happened. Others knew of it, but not I. So that is why I am hard pressed to say that all the members were 'glorying' in what one fornicator was doing.

Paul wrote that letter to those 95 members(my estimated membership) as a whole, yes. However, the evildoings he was addressing was addressed at the transgressors. They were the ones 'egging' him on.

Here's a good read for you, monsieur.


http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-christian-walk/carnal-christian-by-albert-n-martin/
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.[Rom. 12:1,2]


Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for whoever loves others has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.[Rom. 13:8-10]


Let us behave decently, as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and debauchery, not in dissension and jealousy. Rather, clothe yourselves with the Lord Jesus Christ, and do not think about how to gratify the desires of the flesh.[Rom. 13:13,14]

That, however, is not the way of life you learned when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.Eph. 4:20-24]

The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like[/u]. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.[Gal. 5:19-21] Paul said those who LIVE like this.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.[Gal. 5:22-26]


In all of these passages of scriptures, Paul is stating that a man who has come to Christ is a changed man. There is no such thing as a carnal Christian, monsieur.
 

revmwc

Well-Known Member
You may be right, but I am still not convinced. Not that I am being hard-headed or obstinate, but in light of 1 John 3, where John plainly said we can not continue sinning, I find it hard to believe this 'affair' was of a lengthy time. But again, you could be right.


Now, I have done a little studying about the Corinthian church at the time of this writing, and the church's size was rumored to be between 40-150. So if I go with the mean, it would put the church's numbers at 95 members.

Now, according to your view/understanding of what transpired, all 95 members knew what was going on and all were 'egging' it on. Whereas I believe that only a few knew about it. The other day we had to excommunicate two people. I was shocked about what I heard and had no clue what had happened. Others knew of it, but not I. So that is why I am hard pressed to say that all the members were 'glorying' in what one fornicator was doing.

Paul wrote that letter to those 95 members(my estimated membership) as a whole, yes. However, the evildoings he was addressing was addressed at the transgressors. They were the ones 'egging' him on.

Here's a good read for you, monsieur.


http://www.apuritansmind.com/the-christian-walk/carnal-christian-by-albert-n-martin/

We have an example in Lot, was Lot saved while living in Sodom?

Then we see Romans 6 and Paul's warning that as believers we are not to fall back into walking in sin:

12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

1 John 3:9

9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 John 3
Interlinear
Every the one having been generated out of the God sin not is doing that seed of Him in him is remaining and not he is able to be missing that out of the God he has been generated.

Both stating the same thing Paul says don't fall back into sin John is saying that sin doesn't have dominion over us, yet we fall to temptation and let sin abound in our lives sometimes.

John Gill 1 John 3:9:
and he cannot sin; not that it is impossible for such a man to do acts of sin, or that it is possible for him to live without sin;for the words are not to be understood in the sense of those who plead for perfection in this life; for though the saints have perfection in Christ, yet not in themselves; they are not impeccable, they are not free from sin, neither from the being nor actings of it; sin is in them, lives in them, dwells in them, hinders all the good, and does all the mischief it can: or in such sense, as if the sins of believers were not sins; for though they are pardoned and expiated, and they are justified from them, yet they do not cease to be sins; they are equally contrary to the nature, will, and law of God, as well as the sins of others; and are oftentimes attended with more aggravated circumstances, and which God in a fatherly way takes notice of, and chastises for, and on the account of which he hides his face from them: nor does the phrase intend any particular single sin, which cannot be committed; though there are such, as sinning wilfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, or denying Christ to be the Saviour of sinners, and a sacrifice for sin, and hatred of a Christian brother as such, and sinning the sin unto death, or the unpardonable sin; neither of which can be committed by a regenerate man: nor is the meaning only, though it is a sense that will very well bear, and agrees with the context, that such persons cannot sin as unregenerate men do; that is, live in a continued course of sinning, and with pleasure, and without reluctance, and so as to lie in it, as the whole world does: but rather the meaning is, he that is born of God, as he is born of God, or that which is born of God in him, the new man, or new creature, cannot sin; for that is pure and holy; there is nothing sinful in it, nor can anything that is sinful come out of it, or be done by it; it is the workmanship of the Holy Spirit of God; it is a good work, and well pleasing: in the sight of God, who is of purer eyes than to behold sin with delight; and an incorruptible seed, which neither corrupts nor is corrupted; and though it is as yet an imperfect work, it is not impure: the reason of the impeccability of the regenerate man, as such, is
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We have an example in Lot, was Lot saved while living in Sodom?

Then we see Romans 6 and Paul's warning that as believers we are not to fall back into walking in sin:





Both stating the same thing Paul says don't fall back into sin John is saying that sin doesn't have dominion over us, yet we fall to temptation and let sin abound in our lives sometimes.

Lot I have not study a whole lot about. I know he is mentioned in Hebrews 11, so he is saved. Now, if he was saved during the time of Sodom's and Gomorrah's destruction, I will have to go back and reread. But this carnal christianity is something I will never agree with, well, unless God shows me otherwise. But christians will never wallow in sins. Step in them, commit them, absolutely yes. Wallow in them? Never, monsieur.
 

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Which one of the seven deaths do you refer too?
1. Physical
2. Spiritual
3. Positional
4. Not able to physically reproduce
5. Second
6. Temporal
7. Operational

Physical and Spiritual death(s)happen(s) due to Adam, mon ami. Second death happens due to sinners failure to repent and believe the good news.[Mark 1:15]

These others I have no idea where you pulled them from. :confused:
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Physical and Spiritual death(s)happen(s) due to Adam, mon ami. Second death happens due to sinners failure to repent and believe the good news.[Mark 1:15]

These others I have no idea where you pulled them from. :confused:

Do you ever notice how a false teacher wants to tell stories and add to what is written? That way they think their generalized story will add credibility to their scripture denying ways!:wavey::wavey:

and then to quote gill without understanding;
that such persons cannot sin as unregenerate men do; that is, live in a continued course of sinning, and with pleasure, and without reluctance, and so as to lie in it, as the whole world does: but rather the meaning is, he that is born of God, as he is born of God, or that which is born of God in him, the new man, or new creature, cannot sin; for that is pure and holy; there is nothing sinful in it, nor can anything that is sinful come out of it,
 
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SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Do you ever notice how a false teacher wants to tell stories and add to what is written? That way they think their generalized story will add credibility to their scripture dvfenying ways!:wavey::wavey:

and then to quote gill without understanding;

http://www.peacemakers.net/unity/carnal.htm

http://www.truthaccordingtoscriptur...rfeit-cross/carnal-christian.php#.VaanyJrD_SE

http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/articles/are_there_carnal.shtml

http://livinghopechurch.net/the-dangerous-doctrine-the-carnal-christian/


This is a very dangerous doctrine.
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
You may be right, but I am still not convinced. Not that I am being hard-headed or obstinate, but in light of 1 John 3, where John plainly said we can not continue sinning, I find it hard to believe this 'affair' was of a lengthy time. But again, you could be right.
The statements given in 1 John 3 are general principles to live by. If they were absolutes they would contradict 1 John 1:8-10. Each and every chapter of the epistle of First Corinthians addresses a problem which dealt with a lifestyle. One doesn't overeat just one time to be called gluttonous. It was habitual. The same was true for drinking. Some of them were drunks. They had drinking problems. It was habitual. The same was true of taking one another to court. If it had happened but one time it wouldn't have been a problem, but it was happening over and over again so much so that it was ruining the reputation of the church.
In chapter one, it was not just one person that had wanted to be baptized by the great apostle--Paul; it was many. Look at the answer Paul gave: "I thank God that I have baptized none of you." It was a problem that infected the church. It was one aspect of divisiveness that ran through the church and continued in many different aspects.
Marriage problems of all sorts continued to be a problem.
This was a carnal church with carnal believers living out carnal lifestyles.
The question that must be asked is: Are they willing to be rebuked and willing to repent. They were. If they were not willing to receive correction and not willing to repent then that would be evidence of "not being saved," or continuing in unrighteousness.

The example of discipline in Matthew 18:15-20 pictures someone who is continuing in sin. You see that person in sin; it offends you, and you go to him. If he repents all is well. But if he doesn't repent, then what?
He continues on in his sin. It is a lifestyle.

You take with you one or two others that every word may be established.
If he repents then all is well. But if no, then he continues in his evil lifestyle.
You take the third step of bringing him before the church.

I wonder how much time has passed now that this "member" has been continuing in a sinful lifestyle?
He is a member of the church, a brother. If he repents, then all is well.
If he doesn't repent then the action of the Corinthian church is taken--disfellowship him, or excommunicate him. This is a restorative action.

Now, I have done a little studying about the Corinthian church at the time of this writing, and the church's size was rumored to be between 40-150. So if I go with the mean, it would put the church's numbers at 95 members.

Now, according to your view/understanding of what transpired, all 95 members knew what was going on and all were 'egging' it on. Whereas I believe that only a few knew about it. The other day we had to excommunicate two people. I was shocked about what I heard and had no clue what had happened. Others knew of it, but not I. So that is why I am hard pressed to say that all the members were 'glorying' in what one fornicator was doing.

Paul wrote that letter to those 95 members(my estimated membership) as a whole, yes. However, the evildoings he was addressing was addressed at the transgressors. They were the ones 'egging' him on.
Consider these quotes:
1Co 16:15 I beseech you, brethren, (ye know the house of Stephanas, that it is the firstfruits of Achaia, and that they have addicted themselves to the ministry of the saints,)

1Co 16:19 The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

Concerning the above verse Adam Clarke writes:
With the Church that is in their house - That is, the company of believers who generally worshipped there. There were no churches or chapels at that time built; and the assemblies of Christians were necessarily held in private houses. It appears that Aquila and Priscilla devoted their house to this purpose. The house of Philemon was of the same kind; Phm_1:2. So was likewise the house of Nymphas, Col_4:15. See the note on Rom_16:5.
There were no buildings. They gathered in homes. Even in Jerusalem:
Act 12:5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.
Act 12:12 And when he had considered the thing, he came to the house of Mary the mother of John, whose surname was Mark; where many were gathered together praying.

The "church of Jerusalem" or at least many of the believers, had gathered at the house of Mary, the mother of John Mark, and were praying for Peter. But in Acts 2, 3,000 were saved, and many more added to this church daily.
By Act 6 this church had at least 150,000, too big for the apostles to handle. So they chose "deacons". They had to be meeting in many different houses, which were under supervision by the apostles.

Something similar may have been happening in Corinth. They didn't have church buildings unto ca.250 A.D. or later. It is possible that not "all" were well acquainted with the situation, or not "all" were carnal and involved in the situations mentioned. It was just the general state of affairs that was reported to him at that time.
 
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DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Do you ever notice how a false teacher wants to tell stories and add to what is written? That way they think their generalized story will add credibility to their scripture denying ways!:wavey::wavey:

and then to quote gill without understanding;
[/B]

Sounds like a carnal statement made by one who cannot contribute positively nor defend his own doctrine.

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
--You have denied this scripture from the day that it has been discussed.
 
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