The eternal purpose of Christ pt2

[PreachTony]

The Eternal Purpose of God in Christ: Part II

The previous thread reached 30 pages and had to be closed. I was in the middle of responding to Brother Icon when the thread closed. If it is not out-of-line, I would like to start Part II of that thread in order to answer. If it is out-of-line, then Mods feel free to shut us down.

***

This saving grace is always effectual....or the sheep would not be saved.

No....Unsaved men mostly do not even understand theological terms in a biblical way for the most part.

So man is only able to resist for a time? But that goes against the term "Irresistible," regardless the end result. Even if you called it "Effectual Grace," you're still stuck with the fact that with man having no option in the process, then it must necessitate God forcing the change, and thereby the salvation, on that man. You can dress it up however you want, but if Person A put something on Person B that Person B never desired, there is no other definition but "force." Do not consider this an equitable statement with God doing violence to someone. It is not. It is merely God not allowing man a choice. If man has no choice but to be saved, or never has the opportunity from God to be saved, then God is indeed the final arbiter of eternal destiny, but He also becomes the author of confusion and evil. We know God is not, but under your theology He is.

I offered you the confession of faith for a reason awhile back.....it attempts to detail exactly why this grace is effectual....The godly men were very careful when they worded the document

In post 261 I highlighted how the confession describes it...I will repeat it for you now;

The theological term "irresistable grace " has been around before we were born. If you were so keen to discuss the topic.....the least you could do is do some homework and see the historical facts...do I have to do it for you?

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life,

2]he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time,

3]effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit,

4]out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,

5]to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;

6]enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

7]taking away their heart of stone,

8]and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

9]renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

10and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

11]yet so as they come most freely,

12]being made willing by his grace.

( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

I'm not going to lie to you Icon...I think the doctrine of Election as described by Calvinism is deplorable. It posits God as a being that has chosen a few, damned the rest, could take those out of damnation but doesn't, then claims He has no joy in the death of the wicked, and who commands men to repent knowing that He will never allow most of them the ability to repent. I don't care what the Baptist Confession of 1689 says. I care what scripture says. Why do Calvinist seem to rely so heavily on theologies and documents from 1500 to 1600 years after Christ instead of relying on the written witness of Christ? From what I can read, it seems like Calvinist look at scripture through the lens of the theology instead of looking at theology through the lens of Scripture.

PT...take note...12 actions are listed....God is the one doing these things and effecting change.
No where is the man centered language of{meaning man chooses to accept God's grace} found in the statement, because it is not found in scripture!
These men derived this statement from the scriptures listed. I stand with them, I stand with the scriptural language......It is not a philosophical discussion at all....but scriptural

No where is man-centered language in scripture? I don't like calling it man-centered, as it is not, but what about these? These invitations involve God calling and man having to answer.
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.(Rev 22:17)
And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.(Mark 8:34)
Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (Acts 8:35-17)
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (Romans 10:9)
These sound a lot like men having to answer God's call rather than God simply acting alone with man having no part whatsoever.

here is the scriptural truth on this:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Paul is discussing our election and effectual calling said it this way in verse 6

wherein He hath made us...accepted in the beloved

I would talk to you about how God desires all to be saved, and does not want any to perish, but you've already tried to tell us that 2 Peter 3 is only meant for the saved and no one else. So I ask you this: If God had already Elected the "us-ward" to the point that they could not escape their Election, then why would He have to be unwilling that any perish, seeing as He had already secured them?

The Father accepts the work of the Son......WE ARE ACCEPTED IN HIM.
that is the only question...are we still in Adam...or In Christ.

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone,

not from anything at all foreseen in man,

nor from any power or agency in the creature,

being wholly passive therein,

being dead in sins and trespasses,

until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;

he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it,

and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

There is no non-Cal (or at least I hope there is no non-Cal) who would try to tell you they saved themselves. We will tell you that God does everything. There is nothing within us that can provide us salvation. That does not absolve us from the requirement that we believe first.

Correct and this has just been explained to you.....the hymn says...
nothing in my hands I bring....simply to the cross I cling....

So man does have to do something (cling to the cross)? Honestly, how can you read the scripture and not see the invitations I listed above and recognize that man must answer God's call? Why stand so rigidly on the notion that man has no input when scripture obviously reveals that man must believe (i.e.: man has input)?

Once God saves us and regenerates us as described by all these points highlighted by the confession of faith.....then.....He works IN US to will and to do of His good pleasure....we become joyful laborers in the Kingdom work.

You keep referring to the confession. I'm going to keep going back to scripture:
But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. (Matt 6:33)

 

[PreachTony]

Part 2 of Post #1

PT... I am not totally sure what you mean by this.....let me answer it this way....turn in your bible to Isa.6......ask yourself....did Isaiah "accept anything" or was it no contest....you are God ...I am not ...have mercy upon me, I am a man of unclean lips.....

No vain boasting about I have faith, I accept this or that, I am going to make a choice now....

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

here is saul in acts 9.....was he accepting anything?

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man

He accepted nothing...he was crushed...and begged ...what would you have me to do?

Again, you are doing nothing but displaying how in your theology God forces salvation upon "His Elect." And if God forces salvation, then there is no other way but to say that God likewise forces damnation. At least preachers like John Piper admit the necessity of this, claiming double predestination as another point of Calvinism.

I will not knowingly admit to the unscriptural.

Yet you have apparently "unknowingly" done so by refusing the invitations listed in scripture. You have done so by removing any input on man's behalf. I don't doubt that you earnestly do not want to do this, but your theology necessitates you adding these things to scripture that never bore them out in the first place.

I offer you that which has been made known to me...I would not turn from that to broken cisterns of carnal philosophy which can hold no water.:thumbs:

Again, you claim that my side does not reference scripture. Yet this entire conversation I have given you nothing but scripture while you have given scripture tinted with Calvin's beliefs (1500 years younger than the scripture) and the 1689 Confession (nearly 1700 years younger). Why must you continually try to belittle the opposite side with accusations of humanized philosophy when all we've done is quote the Word?

Pt...could you answer this for me?

You've purposefully obscured your intent by using a word that has multiple definitions of varying meaning, when clearer words were available. Such as:

want to reference something you said, I am in the rear of a restaurant at the truckstop, I have a pulled dorsal muscle, now that I have returned to Alabama. a person I was talking to told me they would return soon.. A pit bull forced me back (unnecessary word within the sentence) into a corner. I hope you reply to me soon on this.

Do you see how much clearer you could've been, had you wanted. Are you saying that God purposely chose to obscure His own word? I didn't think God was the author of confusion?

 

[Iconoclast]

In a now closed thread there were unanswered questions.....lets look once again;

DHK said in the edited post 279;

Quote:
No...we understand these verses...and

It is apparent you do not, but rather deny them.

Lets look....DHK posted

He is not willing that any should perish....

I responded
is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.

Another denial. 2Pet.3:9

You quote half of the verse to attempt to avoid the clear teaching...but this gives a meaning different from the God given meaning.....I was thinking where else did I see someone do that?

Of course....it was Satan.....look here;

8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence:

10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee:

11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

Satan left out half the verse changing the meaning...
.He left out "in all thy ways" which we see in psalm 91:11

Jesus rebuked Satan for taking away from Gods word......so why do you follow the hermeneutical method of Satan in changing the meaning by leaving
out the words...to usward, or toward us......even appealing to a bogus paraphrase??

Quote:
they are not a blank slate....they love sin is why they are not saved.

That is not true. Missions testify to this. Many want to be saved but have no one to tell them. I was in that state once.

no one seeks God no not one.....they seek idols, they seek sin

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

--

But you don't believe in missions do you?

Where have I ever said that I do not believe in missions?

This is a vile accusation...not the first time you have done this....now to quote you from the now closed thread;;;

If someone said it then quote it. Without a quote you simply are making false accusations: Spewing words into the wind.
Provide the quote. Explain the context.
If you can't put a clothespin on your mouth, unplug your computer, and take the battery out
Quote:

Go ahead big boy...show one quote where I ever said I do not believe in missions.....show it just one time...you cannot ....you know why....it is a lie that is why....

You are lying again..... I have posted about a missionary friend living in bamboo huts in Indonesia having started a growing church on a predominately muslim Island....and you questioned his credentials ina very disgraceful way...remember?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1426504624229820/

The missionary and his family are Calvinists sent from a Baptist church in Missouri and yet you questioned his credentials:laugh:

In fact you don't even know if you are one of the elect

?

Another baseless charge from you....

Is your first hand experience your testimony that you were forced to believe?
How do you know that you are one of the elect?

This has been answered
This has been answered solidly...you just do not welcome it.

But you can't answer it. That is why you gave the above answer.
In Calvinism a person is forced to be saved. That is the meaning of Irresistible Grace, right? Grace cannot be resisted. it is forced.

This has been answered...you ignore it.

 

[Iconoclast]

In the now closed first thread this was offered to PT...you can respond here;
PreachTony


Quote:
So grace is not ultimately resisted,

This saving grace is always effectual....or the sheep would not be saved.


Quote:
meaning man chooses to accept God's grace.

No....Unsaved men mostly do not even understand theological terms in a biblical way for the most part.

I offered you the confession of faith for a reason awhile back.....it attempts to detail exactly why this grace is effectual....The godly men were very careful when they worded the document


In post 261 I highlighted how the confession describes it...I will repeat it for you now;

The theological term "irresistable grace " has been around before we were born. If you were so keen to discuss the topic.....the least you could do is do some homework and see the historical facts...do I have to do it for you?

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life,

2]he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time,

3]effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit,

4]out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature,

5]to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;

6]enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;

7]taking away their heart of stone,

8]and giving unto them a heart of flesh;

9]renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

10and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

11]yet so as they come most freely,

12]being made willing by his grace.



( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

PT...take note...12 actions are listed....God is the one doing these things and effecting change.
No where is the man centered language of{meaning man chooses to accept God's grace} found in the statement, because it is not found in scripture!
These men derived this statement from the scriptures listed. I stand with them, I stand with the scriptural language......It is not a philosophical discussion at all....but scriptural

here is the scriptural truth on this:
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;


Paul is discussing our election and effectual calling said it this way in verse 6

wherein He hath made us...accepted in the beloved


The Father accepts the work of the Son......WE ARE ACCEPTED IN HIM.
that is the only question...are we still in Adam...or In Christ.

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone,

not from anything at all foreseen in man,

nor from any power or agency in the creature,

being wholly passive therein,

being dead in sins and trespasses,

until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;

he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it,

and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )


Quote:
But you guys say man has absolutely no input in the process.

Correct and this has just been explained to you.....the hymn says...
nothing in my hands I bring....simply to the cross I cling....

Once God saves us and regenerates us as described by all these points highlighted by the confession of faith.....then.....He works IN US to will and to do of His good pleasure....we become joyful laborers in the Kingdom work.


Quote:
Yet if something ultimately does not resist, that means it has to give in. If you want to couch this argument as God's grace having to break through man's stubborn will, then you have weakened God.

PT... I am not totally sure what you mean by this.....let me answer it this way....turn in your bible to Isa.6......ask yourself....did Isaiah "accept anything" or was it no contest....you are God ...I am not ...have mercy upon me, I am a man of unclean lips.....

No vain boasting about I have faith, I accept this or that, I am going to make a choice now....

5 Then said I, Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips: for mine eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts.

here is saul in acts 9.....was he accepting anything?

And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest,

2 And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem
4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?

5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.

6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man

He accepted nothing...he was crushed...and begged ...what would you have me to do?


Quote:
Otherwise, you admit that man must inevitably choose to accept the grace offered.

I will not knowingly admit to the unscriptural.



Quote:
Or, you can go back to the definition that DHK, myself, and every other non-
Calvinist I know relies on, which is that God forces His grace upon the Elect, seeing as the fully monergistic position cannot allow man to accept God.


I offer you that which has been made known to me...I would not turn from that to broken cisterns of carnal philosophy which can hold no water.


Pt...could you answer this for me?


Quote:
want to get back to something you said, I am in the back of a restaurant at the truckstop, I have a pulled muscle in my back, now that I have gotten back down to Alabama. a person I was talking to told me they would be right back.. A pit bull forced me back into a corner. I hope you get back to me soon on this.
Now PT....give me a one sentence definition of the word....BACK. in the last paragraph.....what does the word mean?

Then tell me how the words world and all are not the same???

 

[PreachTony]

I actually replied in a thread started 2 minutes before this one. What should we do?

 

[Iconoclast]

I cannot leave out my good friend Steaver;

steaver

Quote:
It is not the fault of non-Cals that Calvinism has come up with a term that has to be redefined by Calvinist in order for it to make any sense

.

Cals work to study to clarify the scriptural positions even more

Quote:
I guess so they could have a catchy acronym like TULIP, since TULEP doesn't look and sound as good.

you are corncerned with so many side issues.....leave it to Steaver

Quote:
Are you here to examine if Calvinism is true?

No...I know it is true and steadfast being the scriptural teaching. I come looking to grow and learn from more gifted brothers like Reformed, Protestant, SG, Rippon, OLD Regular, AA. Dr. Bob,and so many others.

I try and be helpful when I can....but it drowned out by the constant barrage of attacks from those who would oppose these truths.

Quote:
Or do you have an agenda to prove Calvinism is true? Don't be a hypocrite brother. We all have agendas. Yes, even you.....

Calvinism is true so I have no agenda to "prove it". I do have an agenda to grow in grace and learn more about My Lord and Master....Jesus Christ.

If that means doing battle against gainsayers, and false teachings, and various enemies of the cross and true doctrine....we can go there.

Quote:
Good one More hypocrisy......

Speaking of hypocrisy...let me ask you Steaver...what do you post that you believe to be error???

In other words...what do you post where you say to yourself.....
This belief I have is wrong but I will post it anyway...

Everyone thinks they are correct until someone shows them the error.
__________________

 

[Iconoclast]

​

I actually replied in a thread started 2 minutes before this one. What should we do?

which thread....have keyboard will travel:thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Iconoclast]

okay ...good job PT... I will respond to you here...we must have started our threads at the same time...I type slow...lol

 

[DHK]

Let's shut this one down simply because it is the shorter of the two threads.

 

[DHK]

In a now closed thread there were unanswered questions.....lets look once again;

DHK said in the edited post 279;




Lets look....DHK posted



I responded
is not found in the bible no matter how many times you post it.




You quote half of the verse to attempt to avoid the clear teaching...but this gives a meaning different from the God given meaning.....I was thinking where else did I see someone do that?

Of course....it was Satan.....look here;

My response to this entire post is given here:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2250240&postcount=295

Answer that post.

 

[Iconoclast]

PreachTony

So man is only able to resist for a time?

When the word goes forth in the general preaching and teaching of the bible ...this is referred to as the general call....why ?

because it is outward and external it is heard with the physical ear...it is seen with physical eyesight......

but as those who wrote the 1689 write.....

[]enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;]

Here from A BAPTIST CATECHISM With COMMENTARY;BY W.R.Downing

Quest. 15: What is meant by “illumination”?
Ans: Illumination is the spiritual insight into the Scriptures given to
the believer by the grace of the Holy Spirit.
1 Jn. 2:20, 27.
20
But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye
know all things....
27
But the anointing which ye have received of him
abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the
same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie,
and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
1 Cor. 2:9–10.
9
But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard,
neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath
prepared for them that love him.
10
But God hath revealed them unto
us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things
of God.
See also: Matt. 4:4; Lk. 24:13–32, 44–47; Jn. 17:17; 1 Cor. 2:9–16;
Eph. 1:15–21; Col. 3:16; 2 Tim. 3:16–17; Heb. 5:10–14; 2 Pet. 3:18.
COMMENTARY
The Spirit of God, who especially indwells every true believer, gives
spiritual insight into the Scriptures, and through the Scriptures, into spiritual
or doctrinal truth. Illumination, therefore, not only concerns the mind; it also
includes the life in a two–fold sense: first, the end of all Bible study is the
arrival at propositional or doctrinal truth. Every Christian in this sense is to be
a theologian. Second, doctrinal truth is to have a profound effect upon the
believer’s life, i.e., “theology determines one’s morality,” or, “everything in
life is ultimately disciplined by one’s theology.” There is a necessary
relationship between Scripture rightly learned and held, and the personal
character, i.e., a person’s life is necessarily the reflection of his theology.
47
This anointing or illumination is distinct, a mark of grace, and utterly
necessary for the Christian’s experience and growth (Rom. 1:18–22; 1 Cor.
2:9–16; Eph. 4:17–19). This spiritual insight or perception enables true
Christians to study the Scriptures, feed upon the Bible as their spiritual food,
receive instruction, become doctrinally consistent and astute, be completely
outfitted for their spiritual lives, and grow toward spiritual maturity.

Although there are not degrees of inspiration, there are degrees of
illumination, depending upon one’s faith, godliness, study of the Scriptures
and spiritual maturity (1 Cor. 2:9–13; Eph. 1:15–19; 2 Pet. 3:18).
It must be carefully noted that spiritual illumination is not static, but may
even decrease due to unconfessed sin, grieving the Spirit of truth, unbelief,
spiritual sloth, or from turning away in fear or unbelief from any aspect of
Divine truth (Eph. 4:30; Heb. 5:10–14).

To come to terms with any aspect of
scriptural truth and then reject it, for whatever reason, necessarily results to
the same degree in the inability to discern truth from error. Do we pray for
understanding and illumination (Psa. 119:18)? Do we seriously seek to live up
to the standard of what truth we know?

But that goes against the term "Irresistible," regardless the end result. Even if you called it "Effectual Grace," you're still stuck with the fact that with man having no option in the process, then it must necessitate God forcing the change, and thereby the salvation, on that man.

PT.....I do not do semantics...I do not get into philosophical speculations.
I go with doctrine and scriptural truth .....someone else might chase these ideas...I go for the bottom line...not as concerned with rabbit trails...

You can dress it up however you want,

I do not need to dress it up...I am just to faithfully declare what scripture says.

but if Person A put something on Person B that Person B never desired

,

again from the confession....

renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good,

10and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;

11]yet so as they come most freely,

12]being made willing by his grace.

psalm 110:3

there is no other definition but "force."

When the Spirit shows a man his guilt before a HOLY GOD by using the mirror of God's Holy law...the man is undone like Isaiah was.

Do not consider this an equitable statement with God doing violence to someone. It is not. It is merely God not allowing man a choice.

If men wanted to come to God on his terms...and God stopped them then you can say something about it...

men are responsible...they make a choice everyday.....it is sin and death

 

[Iconoclast]

PT posted;

I'm not going to lie to you Icon...I think the doctrine of Election as described by Calvinism is deplorable

.

Okay..honesty is good. now let's examine why you believe this?

It posits God as a being that has chosen a few,

Mrs Clast has been reading my posts and explaining that she does think I am too harsh sometimes. Then the more she reads...she is astonished that some post against these things as they do. She understands why I post as I do...but still believes I need to calm down a bit....She is most likely correct, that is why she is my helpmeet...


However....to examine your statement becomes a difficult task right from the get /go.

God has a chosen few????

Do you think the number of the sand of the sea shore...or the stars of the heavens...are a few???? really...

I believe I have answered you on this before...so why repeat this error and falsehood?

damned the rest,

were the rest sinners? did they merit heaven?

could take those out of damnation but doesn't,

What can you possibly mean by this? Do you doubt that God is all wise? Do you doubt His perfect Justice?

How could he "take them out of damnation" but does not?

is your gripe that God has not in His Holy wisdom determined not to save everyone whoever existed?

You have some explaining to do here!

then claims He has no joy in the death of the wicked

,

Does God "claim" this...or has God indeed declared this.

and who commands men to repent

Has God commanded all men everywhere to repent?

knowing that He will never allow most of them the ability to repent.

so you question God's wisdom and Holy purpose again? You PT know better than God himself who he needs to enable to repent?

I don't care what the Baptist Confession of 1689 says. I care what scripture says.

You complained the other day that Cals say...you are not studied on these things correct?

You now state....you do not care what the 1689 says...you are interested in what scripture says...really????

I do not mean to be cruel, or embarrass you...but ley me put it to you this way....all those numbers in the confession of faith,,,,,are
SCRIPTURES.....From the chapter on God's decree;
( Isaiah 46:10; Ephesians 1:11; Hebrews 6:17; Romans 9:15, 18; James 1:13; 1 John 1:5; Acts 4:27, 28; John 19:11; Numbers 23:19; Ephesians 1:3-5 )
( Acts 15:18; Romans 9:11, 13, 16, 18 )

( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4

( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )
( Ephesians 1:4, 9, 11; Romans 8:30; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Thessalonians 5:9; Romans 9:13, 16; Ephesians 2:5, 12 )

( 1 Peter 1:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 10; Romans 8:30; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 Peter 1:5; John 10:26; John 17:9; John 6:64 )
1 Thessalonians 1:4, 5; 2 Peter 1:10; Ephesians 1:6; Romans 11:33; Romans 11:5, 6, 20; Luke 10:20 )


here is from effectual calling;

( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )



( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

SO..when you make such a foolish statement how am I supposed to react? There are more scriptures here than any 30 of your posts so excuse me if I reject this uninformed and foolish objection.

 

[Iconoclast]

PT posted;

I'm not going to lie to you Icon.
I think the doctrine of Election as described by Calvinism is deplorable.

1]Okay...stop right here.....Give your definition or understanding of election right now... forget for one minute there are Calvinists...someone comes up to you in Publix and says PT...I have been reading my bible...what does eph 1 mean by election?


Give me your definition.....then give me ...what you think Calvinism says...in the words of actual Calvinists

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK,


http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2204497&postcount=196


Now, in this post you stated:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
--He has elected us according to His foreknowledge.
Let's not redefine foreknowledge. It is just what it says it is--knowing aforetime or ahead of time, similar to His omniscience.
He knew before the foundation of the world who, of their own free will (which, within the boundaries of his Sovereignty, he has allowed man) who would receive him or reject him. On that basis he chose those that received him and damned those that rejected him.

So God is not willing any should perish, but willingly damns those that do not believe, mon ami? If you do not see the schizophrenia....

 

[SovereignGrace]

DHK, can you merge the two threads so these posts are in one thread? I do not know if you have that function available to merge threads.

 

[DHK]

DHK,


http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2204497&postcount=196


Now, in this post you stated:


So God is not willing any should perish, but willingly damns those that do not believe, mon ami? If you do not see the schizophrenia....

My answer was given in post #295.
Here is a part of it:

The one sin that Lord will send people to hell for is unbelief.
It is mentioned here among many sins.
Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And the verse I used previously--Jesus's own words:
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

It is not God that sends a person to hell, it is man himself in his rejection of Christ through his own unbelief.
Unbelief will keep one out of heaven and send him straight to hell.

 

[SovereignGrace]

PreachTony,


You said this in the thread you started, but DHK mentioned shutting that one down, so I will post my thoughts here:

There is no non-Cal (or at least I hope there is no non-Cal) who would try to tell you they saved themselves. We will tell you that God does everything. There is nothing within us that can provide us salvation. That does not absolve us from the requirement that we believe first.

You guys say it is all of God, yet unless you bring faith into the equation He can not save you. Now matter how hard He tries by sending witnesses, no matter how many sermons He causes preachers to preach to you, unless you do something, He can not save you.


In your theology, God has done His part, now you must do yours. How is that all of God, mon ami?

 

[Iconoclast]

pt 2

Why do Calvinist seem to rely so heavily on theologies and documents from 1500 to 1600 years after Christ instead of relying on the written witness of Christ?

UhhMMM.. maybe because after the printing press was invented and God brought reformation and Spiritual revival, the bibles and bible teaching multiplied. the documents we use help us grow in knowledge of Jesus....Historical records were passed on.

From what I can read, it seems like Calvinist look at scripture through the lens of the theology instead of looking at theology through the lens of Scripture

.

well...let me help you from the confession...what is the first chapter of the confession deal with.

Chapter 1: Of the Holy Scriptures
1._____ The Holy Scripture is the only sufficient, certain, and infallible rule of all saving knowledge, faith, and obedience, although the light of nature, and the works of creation and providence do so far manifest the goodness, wisdom, and power of God, as to leave men inexcusable; yet are they not sufficient to give that knowledge of God and his will which is necessary unto salvation. Therefore it pleased the Lord at sundry times and in divers manners to reveal himself, and to declare that his will unto his church; and afterward for the better preserving and propagating of the truth, and for the more sure establishment and comfort of the church against the corruption of the flesh, and the malice of Satan, and of the world, to commit the same wholly unto writing; which maketh the Holy Scriptures to be most necessary, those former ways of God's revealing his will unto his people being now ceased.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Isaiah 8:20; Luke 16:29, 31; Ephesians 2:20; Romans 1:19-21; Romans 2:14,15; Psalms 19:1-3; Hebrews 1:1; Proverbs 22:19-21; Romans 15:4; 2 Peter 1:19,20 )
2._____Under the name of Holy Scripture, or the Word of God written, are now contained all the books of the Old and New Testaments, which are these:

All of which are given by the inspiration of God, to be the rule of faith and life. ( 2 Timothy 3:16)

3._____ The books commonly called Apocrypha, not being of divine inspiration, are no part of the canon or rule of the Scripture, and, therefore, are of no authority to the church of God, nor to be any otherwise approved or made use of than other human writings.
( Luke 24:27, 44; Romans 3:2 )

4._____ The authority of the Holy Scripture, for which it ought to be believed, dependeth not upon the testimony of any man or church, but wholly upon God (who is truth itself), the author thereof; therefore it is to be received because it is the Word of God.
( 2 Peter 1:19-21; 2 Timothy 3:16; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; 1 John 5:9 )

5._____We may be moved and induced by the testimony of the church of God to an high and reverent esteem of the Holy Scriptures; and the heavenliness of the matter, the efficacy of the doctrine, and the majesty of the style, the consent of all the parts, the scope of the whole (which is to give all glory to God), the full discovery it makes of the only way of man's salvation, and many other incomparable excellencies, and entire perfections thereof, are arguments whereby it doth abundantly evidence itself to be the Word of God; yet notwithstanding, our full persuasion and assurance of the infallible truth, and divine authority thereof, is from the inward work of the Holy Spirit bearing witness by and with the Word in our hearts.
( John 16:13,14; 1 Corinthians 2:10-12; 1 John 2:20, 27)

6._____The whole counsel of God concerning all things necessary for his own glory, man's salvation, faith and life, is either expressly set down or necessarily contained in the Holy Scripture: unto which nothing at any time is to be added, whether by new revelation of the Spirit, or traditions of men. Nevertheless, we acknowledge the inward illumination of the Spirit of God to be necessary for the saving understanding of such things as are revealed in the Word, and that there are some circumstances concerning the worship of God, and government of the church, common to human actions and societies, which are to be ordered by the light of nature and Christian prudence, according to the general rules of the Word, which are always to be observed.
( 2 Timothy 3:15-17; Galatians 1:8,9; John 6:45; 1 Corinthians 2:9-12; 1 Corinthians 11:13, 14; 1 Corinthians 14:26,40)

7._____All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed and observed for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of ordinary means, may attain to a sufficient understanding of them.
( 2 Peter 3:16; Psalms 19:7; Psalms 119:130)

8._____The Old Testament in Hebrew (which was the native language of the people of God of old), and the New Testament in Greek (which at the time of the writing of it was most generally known to the nations), being immediately inspired by God, and by his singular care and providence kept pure in all ages, are therefore authentic; so as in all controversies of religion, the church is finally to appeal to them. But because these original tongues are not known to all the people of God, who have a right unto, and interest in the Scriptures, and are commanded in the fear of God to read and search them, therefore they are to be translated into the vulgar language of every nation unto which they come, that the Word of God dwelling plentifully in all, they may worship him in an acceptable manner, and through patience and comfort of the Scriptures may have hope.
( Romans 3:2; Isaiah 8:20; Acts 15:15; John 5:39; 1 Corinthians 14:6, 9, 11, 12, 24, 28; Colossians 3:16 )

9._____The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself; and therefore when there is a question about the true and full sense of any Scripture (which is not manifold, but one), it must be searched by other places that speak more clearly.
( 2 Peter 1:20, 21; Acts 15:15, 16)

10.____The supreme judge, by which all controversies of religion are to be determined, and all decrees of councils, opinions of ancient writers, doctrines of men, and private spirits, are to be examined, and in whose sentence we are to rest, can be no other but the Holy Scripture delivered by the Spirit, into which Scripture so delivered, our faith is finally resolved.
( Matthew 22:29, 31, 32; Ephesians 2:20; Acts 28:23)




[These sound a lot like men having to answer God's call rather than God simply acting alone with man having no part whatsoever.
[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

All thru scripture God urges sinners to come, believe, repent......Until God enables them they will not.

I would talk to you about how God desires all to be saved, and does not want any to perish, but you've already tried to tell us that 2 Peter 3 is only meant for the saved and no one else. So I ask you this: If God had already Elected the "us-ward" to the point that they could not escape their Election, then why would He have to be unwilling that any perish, seeing as He had already secured them?

The passage is meant to comfort the persecuted church as scoffers mock at the promises of God. The elect church who are already saved is assured that the only reason God is longsuffering, putting up with thenwicked is so that ALL he has purposed to save will indeed be saved.....two different words are used for willing in the passage...thelo.and bulomai....

Entry for Strong's #1014 - βούλομαιTransliteration:boúlomai

Phonetics:boo'-lom-ahee


middle voice of a primary verb

Thayer's Definition
1. to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded
2. of willing as an affection, to desire

The word is teaching that God has decreed that he is not willing that ONE elect person perishs apart from His salvation. he has secured it and it will happen...peter sums up that passage for us...there is no speculation;

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14 Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.



Connect the dots.....paul spoke of the longsuffering of God in romans 9...you know...THE ELECTION CHAPTER.....AS IN VS 16 PETER SAYS ...SOMETHINGS HARD TO BE UNDERSTOOD.......Election, predestination...that is what he is speaking about.....do you see this?

There is no non-Cal (or at least I hope there is no non-Cal) who would try to tell you they saved themselves.

.



I have heard on this board some who boast of what they did...and How they had faith....that others did not have

 

[SovereignGrace]

My answer was given in post #295.
Here is a part of it:

But God is not willing anyone should perish and then willingly casts them into hell. That is schizophrenia...

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK says;

It is not God that sends a person to hell,

Jesus said;

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.


40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels