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The eternal purpose of Christ pt2
- Thread starter PreachTony
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Why did he say that? Why did he take that action? You hi-lighted the wrong portion of Scripture.
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
--The reason: "I never knew you."
The rejected him. They never had a personal relationship with Christ. They rejected Him as Savior. They chose not to believe just as the rich man and his five brethren. Check out the story of the rich man and Lazarus.
Why did the rich man have faith in both Abraham and Lazarus that if Lazarus would go to his five brothers that they could be convinced to believe so that they would not come to the place that he was presently in ("tormented in these flames")?
Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[Matt. 24:45-51]
They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.[Matt. 13:42]
And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’[Matt. 25:30]
You need to rethink this ideology, mon ami.
What did Jesus mean when He says 'I never knew you?
People in their fallen state will reject the gospel as it is preached. It takes a quickening of the Spirit to bring hearing to the deafened ears, sight to the blinded eyes, a new heart to receive the truths of the gospel.
Why do the demons believe and shudder? The rich man rejected all the way to the grave. He saw how wrong he was, but it was too late. Unless God interecedes, people will willfully go there.
I believe you take statements in the Bible meant to be general descriptions of mankind and make them into absolute statements without exceptions. It destroys what the Bible teaches.
For example (in general) because of man's depravity he will reject God.
But that doesn't mean 100% of the time. In fact God gave general commands to mankind for man to: repent, believe, have faith, seek the Lord, etc. These commands are given to all mankind and are given so that man has no excuse not to obey.
In general man will rebel, but that is not an absolute.
Abraham did not disobey. God called out to him. He obeyed. In faith Abraham trusted the Lord. In faith he walked with God. Because of his faith righteousness was imputed unto him.
Because they know their end. They cried for mercy when Christ cast them out of Gedarene. They were "Legion." They were afraid of Christ, and afraid of their end. They wanted to go into the swine instead.
Mat 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
Mat 8:30 And there was a good way off from them an herd of many swine feeding.
Mat 8:31 So the devils besought him, saying, If thou cast us out, suffer us to go away into the herd of swine.
Mat 8:32 And he said unto them, Go. And when they were come out, they went into the herd of swine: and, behold, the whole herd of swine ran violently down a steep place into the sea, and perished in the waters.
--They were afraid of Christ.
--They were afraid of "the time," the time of their end.
They willfully (of their own will) reject Christ.
They could willfully, of their own will, accept Christ (As Lazarus did.
But the rich man trusted his riches more than he trusted God.
That is an absolute. Due to man's depravity, he will not bow to God. As Jesus stated This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.[Jn. 3:19,20]
Yes it does.
Exactly.
Left outside the drawing of God they will rebel 100% of the time.
However, Abram's faith was first wrought in his heart by God, mon ami.
They knew their eternal destiny, but could not exercise any faith. It was too late for them.
Their own will is bent towards sin and self. That is the only will the unregenerate can exercise.
It is obvious this is not as true as you think.
Without ever hearing the gospel Cornelius prayed to God, and God heard him. He turned to God, sought out God, and God heard his prayers. Argue as you will but this unsaved man was not regenerated/saved until after he heard the gospel by Peter. This is a very good example of what I am talking about. He sought God and God heard him. There are many others like him. Your religion prohibits you from believing such. That is sad.
Just Cornelius alone makes it 100% minus one. But of course there are many more.
What exactly do you think that verse means? Just because a person "is drawn by God" does not mean that person is guaranteed salvation. He is still able to refuse.
You are reading into the passage things that are not there.
God called Abraham. Abraham obeyed. He believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake.
God did not do any mysterious mystical work in Abraham in order that Abraham "could" believe. The Bible teaches no such metaphysical doctrine.
What are you talking about?
The demons had knowledge. Knowledge in and of itself is not faith.
When a person makes a request they are exercising faith. The demons exercised faith that Christ would grant them their request. Faith and hope go hand in hand. They hoped that they would not be sent "to the deep," and had faith in Christ that He would not send them there. He granted them their request as they "hoped" for. "Their faith" was rewarded, even though they were demons. That of course has nothing to do with salvation just to make it clear. It is the nature of "faith," and what it is.
If that were true, then God would never tell anyone to repent.
Why be cruel to people telling them to do things they cannot do.
This is why Calvinists get the reputation of creating a God that is a monster.
Jesus often commanded men to do what they could not do....
Rise take up thy bed and walk...
Stretch forth your hand
Lazarus come forth...
Faith is always......by or through faith......never because of faith.
Rise take up thy bed and walk...
Stretch forth your hand
Lazarus come forth...
Faith is always......by or through faith......never because of faith.
=DHK
I believe you take statements in the Bible meant to be general descriptions of mankind and make them into absolute statements without exceptions. It destroys what the Bible teaches.
For example (in general) because of man's depravity he will reject God.
But that doesn't mean 100% of the time. In fact God gave general commands to mankind for man to: repent, believe, have faith, seek the Lord, etc. These commands are given to all mankind and are given so that man has no excuse not to obey.
In general man will rebel, but that is not an absolute.
:laugh: it does not mean 100% of the time.....Adam was only partly dead....lol...is that like being a little bit pregnant.....lol.....maybe sinners only rebel every other day....lol
God is angry with the wicked.....everyday.
I believe you take statements in the Bible meant to be general descriptions of mankind and make them into absolute statements without exceptions. It destroys what the Bible teaches.
For example (in general) because of man's depravity he will reject God.
But that doesn't mean 100% of the time. In fact God gave general commands to mankind for man to: repent, believe, have faith, seek the Lord, etc. These commands are given to all mankind and are given so that man has no excuse not to obey.
In general man will rebel, but that is not an absolute.
:laugh: it does not mean 100% of the time.....Adam was only partly dead....lol...is that like being a little bit pregnant.....lol.....maybe sinners only rebel every other day....lolGod is angry with the wicked.....everyday.
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PreachTony
Active Member
I was just trying to follow the example Jesus provided when he said the path to life was strait and narrow, and few entered in, but the path to destruction was broad and many entered in that way. Of course, the number saved is innumerable, as John saw in Revelation. But the number damned is greater still.
Yes. "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Acts 17:30)
No, I don't. I would never make such a claim. I just cannot see from scripture the system you guys claim to see. It seems like your side of the aisle has taken scripture and decided it doesn't apply to the "non-Elect," almost as if it clears their conscience about what their theology actually teaches. There are a number of articles online that show solid opposition to Calvinism. I would share them with you, but I'd rather lean on what the Spirit has shown me from the scripture.
Do you really expect everyone on here to provide as many scriptural quotes as those provided in a potential foundational document like the 1689 Confession? We tend to speak in a more informal manner here.
PreachTony
Active Member
Earlier in this thread you questioned me if God had actually "commanded all men every where to repent," and now you are saying in a matter-of-fact kind of way that God did command man (in general) to repent. What gives?
This is out-and-out mysticism, monsieur. How can you how can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard?[Rom. 10:14] You are all over the place with your theology, mon ami.
Well, let me pose a question for you? Can anyone truly pray to God devoid of the Spirit? What I mean is not having God's Spirit not working in drawing them?
Uhhhh, no it is not, monsieur. It may be an very good example of your theology, but not a good biblical answer.
No disagreement here.
My religion? That is rubbish, monsieur. Just because I say that salvation is 100% of the Lord does not mean it is my religion. That is what God teaches in the bible, you just disagree. You say salvation is of the Lord, but until you choose to exercise 'my faith', God can not save you. Until you bring 'my faith' into the salvation equation, God can not save you. Admit this, own up to this, monsieur. You believe that God has done His part, now you have to do yours. And unless you do your part, you'll die lost. That is salvation that is 50% God's and 50% your's. Now THAT is sad.
Yeah, just like Abram was praying to God in a heathen land called Harran when God called him. David was tending to the sheep and praying to God when Samuel went to Jesse's house searching for him. Moses was out in the desert praying to God when He came to him in the burning bush. Matthew was taking up tax monies praying to God when Jesus said, "follow Me'. Just like Simon Peter and Andrew were praying to God while they were casting their nets into the sea. Just like Phillip and Nathanael were praying to God when God called Phillip who then went and got Nathanael who was also praying to God. Rubbish what you say, mon ami. In every instance I have shown here, it was GOD, and not man, that sought. Yet you say Cornelius was praying to God without hearing the gospel. Rubbish.
I am going to shock you here and give you another example...Saul of Tarsus. He was no more praying to God than the man on the moon did. Oh he might have been 'praying', but he was no different than the self-righteous Pharisee who prayed alongside the publican(tax collector). Why do I make such a claim? He did not believe Jesus was Christ, the Son of the living God before that Light shined upon him. I do not believe for one nanosecond God heard his prayers, as He was rejecting His Son. Now, after that Light shined, Jesus told him what he needed to do and he did it.
Cornelius was saved before he ever uttered a word. Why do I make such a claim as this? You guys think that salvation is the end when in fact it is the beginning when God wroughts a work in sinners' hearts. As the writer said The one who calls you is faithful, and he will do it. When God calls sinners out of their sinful lives, He does so effectually, efficaciously. When God truly seeks someone to save them, He gets them 100% of the time. You say man can refuse, but as Jesus said And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’ [Lu. 15:5,6] Now that when God hunts, He finds. And when He finds them, He brings them back into the fold. We were those sheep who had went astray when sin smacked Adam and caused us to be lost, having gone astray in Adam. So when God calls sinners they are saved, because He will see to it Personally they are saved.
Why is this so hard for you to see, monsieur? Do a Greek word study of the word used for 'draw'. It means to to draw, drag off, to draw by inward power, lead, impel. Impel means to drive, force, or urge someone to do something. Now, God is not forceful as you guys slanderously state, but draws them efficaciously as only He can. Man will not want to refuse when He draws them.
It is not mystical as you repeatedly and slanderously state, monsieur. When you were spiritually dead, your spiritual 'senses', such as seeing, hearing, loving, were dead too. That is why the new heart and Spirit are necessary before you can hear, see and love.
That is correct.
Oh my God!
Demons even have faith. I have read it all now. That also shows you that not all 'faiths' are saving faith. Did He give the Law to the Jews, commanding them to keep it, and punishing them for not doing what He commanded? Are we commanded to 'be holy even as He is holy', mon ami? You have no biblical legs to stand on concerning this, monsieur. Even those who died in remote areas during the 3 days and nights Christ laid in the tomb were expected to observe the laws written upon their hearts. None are without an excuse, whether they knew of Christ or not.
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PreachTony
Active Member
Scripture says we must believe. It says we must confess Him. A Preacher must be called and sent, he must preach the gospel, and the hearer must believe. There is nothing in that about God irresistibly placing belief in the heart of man. If you refuse to accept that man must answer the call, then you negate several scriptures.
I've tried to explain this one to you before, SG. If I provide a gift to you, you have the ability to accept or reject the gift I'm offering you. Regardless if you accept or reject, does your choice in the matter make you the one that provided the gift in the first place?
I am not Iconoclast, but I will answer this in hopes of clarifying our beliefs concerning this.
The gospel preached is something that everybody hears preached in a church service. They hear it with their ears, the ones on the sides of their head. They hear this and it is referred to as a 'general call'. Now, those who are lost when they hear it, it goes 'WOOOOSH!', right by them. Their hearts are sin-hardened and the seed(word) can not take root and grow in their hearts. That is why regeneration has to occur, when God tills the ground, busts up that sin-hardened heart so that the seed(word) can take root and grow. It can also be said they get a new heart as Ezekiel 11:19 & 36:26 speaks of. This is what is referred to as the 'inward call', and it is effectual.
Sinners hearts are sin-hardened and can not receive the word of God, mon ami. They will not believe in their rebellious state. Men will refuse Him all the way to the grave unless God works a work in their hearts.
Look, I know where you are coming from. I used to believe as you do now. You are saying all the things I used to say. Until you receive the gift, you are lost and God can not save you. Listen closely..can not...save...you. We do not serve a 'can not' God PreachTony. You are saying that God has done His part, now you must do yours. That is a 50/50 proposition, mon ami.
There was a lame man laying at the gate called Beautiful. Peter told him to walk, something he could not do, and Peter took him by the hand and he jumped up and began walking and jumping, praising God.[Acts 3:1-8] Peter commanded him to walk, but that man, by his own will, no matter how much he willed, could not have walked unless Peter, through God, healed him.
Peter then in Acts 9 tells Aeneas to "roll up your mat and walk."[Acts 9:34] No matter how much he desired, willed, begged, he could not walk. Peter commanded him to do that which he could not, of his own will, and God healed him. Then there was Dorcas(Tabitha) who was dead. Peter went and knelt beside her and uttered these words, “Tabitha, get up.”[Acts 9:40] She was dead and could not will herself back to life. But Peter, through God, raised her to life.
Your guys' claim that God will not command people to do what they can not do has no biblical legs, They have been sawed off.
Peter then in Acts 9 tells Aeneas to "roll up your mat and walk."[Acts 9:34] No matter how much he desired, willed, begged, he could not walk. Peter commanded him to do that which he could not, of his own will, and God healed him. Then there was Dorcas(Tabitha) who was dead. Peter went and knelt beside her and uttered these words, “Tabitha, get up.”[Acts 9:40] She was dead and could not will herself back to life. But Peter, through God, raised her to life.
Your guys' claim that God will not command people to do what they can not do has no biblical legs, They have been sawed off.
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Oh my God!
James 2:19 tells us that even the demons believe in the fact that there is one God, and they tremble at that fact.
Our English Bibles' word "believe" was translated from the Greek word pisteuo. This word in either Greek or English is used throughout the NT in many ways. Whatever kind of "faith" the demons had cannot be determined strictly by a word study of "believe" because it's applied to both believers and non-believers.
The word "tremble" in our English Bibles was translated from either phrisso or phritto. Both words essentially mean "to shudder or quake from fear or aversion." As with the word "believe," these words have also been applied to believers, e.g., Zacharias in Luke 1:12, and Mary in Luke 1:29. So, again, the fact that James mentioning that the demons tremble at the fact that there is one God doesn't per se attribute to the demons any more "holier trembling" than that which was expressed by true Christian believers.
What are we then to make of the fact that the demons also believe that there is one God and tremble at that fact? It's hard to precisely draw any other conclusions other than the fact that even demons apparently have similar emotions as humans do.
The fact that demons believe there is a God and tremble at that fact doesn't mean that therefore they're capable of trusting Christ as Savior. They might have a chance to do so before they fell along with Lucifer back before the Genesis narrative began, but since no humans existed at that time, it's difficult for a man to know for sure about that possibility occurring.
I'm only inserting this information here to have you recall that, indeed that even demons "believe and tremble" over the fact that God does, in fact, exist.
Believing God exists as they saw Him before they fell. We believe yet have not seen Him.
Their belief in God stems from their seeing Him. Our faith stems from knowing Him through His word.
Not all faiths are the same. If they possessed the faith we have, they would be saved, non? The faith we have was given us by God. The faith they have is because they saw Him.
Faith is faith.
There is not one scripture you can produce that demonstrates you faith was given to you by God, particularly when you were unsaved--the faith that God would give to the unregenerate--that is ludicrous.
Would God give to the unsaved the faith to heal, the faith to do miracles?
Those are also listed along with the "gift of faith" as well.
Would he also give the rest of the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved?
Then why cherry pick out of these two lists "faith"? You make no sense.
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