Power to choose

[Martin Marprelate]

John 1:12. 'But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.'

Amen! This is all a question of the Ordo salutis or order of salvation. It is only when a sinner repents and believes that he is justified by God and adopted into His family. Perhaps we need a thread about this. The verse does not say whether those who believe are those whose hearts God has already opened. That is proved by other verses which have already been discussed.

But John 1:12-13 does make some very important points. salvation is not:-

'.....of blood.' Being the child of a Christian does not make you a Christian. God has no grandchildren.

'.......nor of the will of the flesh.' Our own fallen wills cannot make us right with God. 'It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs.....'

'......nor of the will of [a] man.' There is no third party that can bring us into the kingdom of God. It is not in the oratory of the preacher, nor the incantations of the priest, nor in the ministrations of the social worker, nor the power of the 'anointed healer'........
'but of God.' The power of salvation is of God and of Him alone.

Just read it, folks! :laugh:

 

[DHK]

John 1:12. 'But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.'

Amen! This is all a question of the Ordo salutis or order of salvation. It is only when a sinner repents and believes that he is justified by God and adopted into His family. Perhaps we need a thread about this. The verse does not say whether those who believe are those whose hearts God has already opened. That is proved by other verses which have already been discussed.

But John 1:12-13 does make some very important points. salvation is not:-

'.....of blood.' Being the child of a Christian does not make you a Christian. God has no grandchildren.

'.......nor of the will of the flesh.' Our own fallen wills cannot make us right with God. 'It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs.....'

'......nor of the will of [a] man.' There is no third party that can bring us into the kingdom of God. It is not in the oratory of the preacher, nor the incantations of the priest, nor in the ministrations of the social worker, nor the power of the 'anointed healer'........
'but of God.' The power of salvation is of God and of Him alone.

Just read it, folks! :laugh:

Yes indeed it. Read it. It is a contrast. One is not born of the blood, of the flesh or the will of man. That was the trap that Nicodemus fell in.
"How can one be born when he is old; shall he enter a second time into his mother's womb" he asked, being very confused.
Jesus made the stark differentiation. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
There are two births: one is of the flesh, and the other is of the Spirit.

As he did with Nicodemus, the author John sets apart the things of the flesh from the things of the Spirit. The new birth or regeneration is of God. How does the new birth come. He has told us in verse 12...if "you just read it folks."

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--As many as received him...to them that believe on his name...were born of God.
--Just read it.

 

[agedman]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--As many as received him...to them that believe on his name...were born of God.
--Just read it.

DHK,

I think you are confusing "receive" with accepting or belief as one becoming a believer.

That is not the use of receive (take, accept, dwell in, embrace...) in the context.

The context shows a comparison between those that turn from the light and those that receive (do not turn from) the light.

The power to believe is the result of "receiving" (not turning away from) the light.

Those who turn from the illumination have no power given them to believe.

Only those who do not turn are given the power to become believers. However, the power itself is not belief, nor is the illumination belief, nor is the not turning away and dwelling in the light belief.

The power to become a believer will result in salvation.

Conception happens before birth. Enlightenment (that is "the power to become" part) will bring the conception which results in new birth.

As applied to the OP, this verse then shows how there is not "freedom of choice/will" no innate ability in the darkened hearts to turn back the covers of eternity and the folks that dwell in the reign and rule of the enemy of believers remove themselves from darkness into the light.

 

[DHK]

Conception happens before birth. Enlightenment (that is "the power to become" part) will bring the conception which results in new birth.

As applied to the OP, this verse then shows how there is not "freedom of choice/will" no innate ability in the darkened hearts to turn back the covers of eternity and the folks that dwell in the reign and rule of the enemy of believers remove themselves from darkness into the light.

Conception happens before birth. So?
The new birth or regeneration is not about creating life. The life is already there. Jesus made no reference to conception. That which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. There are two kinds of birth. One is physical. We are all born physically. The other is spiritual. Not all have been born spiritually. How is one born spiritually? By belief in Christ. See John 3:16.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

I think you are confusing "receive" with accepting or belief as one becoming a believer.

That is not the use of receive (take, accept, dwell in, embrace...) in the context.

The context shows a comparison between those that turn from the light and those that receive (do not turn from) the light.

The power to believe is the result of "receiving" (not turning away from) the light.

Those who turn from the illumination have no power given them to believe.

Only those who do not turn are given the power to become believers. However, the power itself is not belief, nor is the illumination belief, nor is the not turning away and dwelling in the light belief.

The power to become a believer will result in salvation.

Conception happens before birth. Enlightenment (that is "the power to become" part) will bring the conception which results in new birth.

As applied to the OP, this verse then shows how there is not "freedom of choice/will" no innate ability in the darkened hearts to turn back the covers of eternity and the folks that dwell in the reign and rule of the enemy of believers remove themselves from darkness into the light.

:applause::applause::applause::applause:

 

[Iconoclast]

John 1:12. 'But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become children of God, even to those who believe in His name.'

Amen! This is all a question of the Ordo salutis or order of salvation. It is only when a sinner repents and believes that he is justified by God and adopted into His family. Perhaps we need a thread about this. The verse does not say whether those who believe are those whose hearts God has already opened. That is proved by other verses which have already been discussed.

But John 1:12-13 does make some very important points. salvation is not:-

'.....of blood.' Being the child of a Christian does not make you a Christian. God has no grandchildren.

'.......nor of the will of the flesh.' Our own fallen wills cannot make us right with God. 'It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs.....'

'......nor of the will of [a] man.' There is no third party that can bring us into the kingdom of God. It is not in the oratory of the preacher, nor the incantations of the priest, nor in the ministrations of the social worker, nor the power of the 'anointed healer'........
'but of God.' The power of salvation is of God and of Him alone.

Just read it, folks! :laugh:

:applause::applause::applause: nice clear post brother!

 

[kyredneck]

...Just read it, folks! :laugh:

I have many times, and it's NOT as you're interpreting it; that one 'chooses of their own will [v. 12] to be born not of their own will' [v. 13].

Those receiving Him [v.12] were already born from above [v. 13].

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I have many times, and it's NOT as you're interpreting it; that one 'chooses of their own will [v. 12] to be born not of their own will' [v. 13].

Those receiving Him [v.12] were already born from above [v. 13].

I think possibly you've replied to the wrong person. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Martin Marprelate]

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--As many as received him...to them that believe on his name...were born of God.
--Just read it.

Yes, well no one has forgotten that John 1:12 is in the Bible. We all agree that everyone who believes on Jesus Christ will be saved. That isn't at issue. The question is, how does one come to believe? The Bible tells us that the 'natural' man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. That is, that which is born of the flesh is flesh. It will always be flesh and can be nothing but flesh unless it receives a New Birth and becomes born of the Spirit.

The key is the very expression, 'born again.' Our Lord could have used a variety of expressions which Nicodemus might have found easier to understand: you must start again, turn over a new leaf, make a new effort etc., but these are all things we can do for ourselves or we can join a self-help group to help us to do them. But the one thing over which we have no control is our own birth. We did nothing to bring it about. It was all out of our control. The time came for us to be born and we put in our appearance with a little squawk.

As with our first birth, so it is with our second: it is not of ourselves. As I'm sure you know, the word translated 'again' can also mean 'from above.' The New Birth is not in ourselves as I should from John 1:13. It comes from above, from God, and from Him alone.

 

[kyredneck]

I think possibly you've replied to the wrong person. :smilewinkgrin:

OK. Never mind.

At the end of this chapter, before he had ever met Him, Christ had this praise of Nathanael: "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" Nathanael was circumcised in heart, already. And received praise from God for it:

... he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2:29

 

[agedman]

How is one born spiritually? By belief in Christ. See John 3:16.

No doubt. You are correct - one is born spiritually by belief in Christ.

However, "How is one given the power to be born spiritually while others are not?", is answered in John 1

Being born spiritually does not happen unless one who does not turn from the light has been given the power to be born Spiritually.

The power is given, followed by spiritual birth expressed in belief and life lived.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

At the end of this chapter, before he had ever met Him, Christ had this praise of Nathanael: "Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!" Nathanael was circumcised in heart, already. And received praise from God for it:

... he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. Ro 2:29

:thumbs: Great post!

 

[Iconoclast]

Yes, well no one has forgotten that John 1:12 is in the Bible. We all agree that everyone who believes on Jesus Christ will be saved. That isn't at issue. The question is, how does one come to believe? The Bible tells us that the 'natural' man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God. That is, that which is born of the flesh is flesh. It will always be flesh and can be nothing but flesh unless it receives a New Birth and becomes born of the Spirit.

The key is the very expression, 'born again.' Our Lord could have used a variety of expressions which Nicodemus might have found easier to understand: you must start again, turn over a new leaf, make a new effort etc., but these are all things we can do for ourselves or we can join a self-help group to help us to do them. But the one thing over which we have no control is our own birth. We did nothing to bring it about. It was all out of our control. The time came for us to be born and we put in our appearance with a little squawk.

As with our first birth, so it is with our second: it is not of ourselves. As I'm sure you know, the word translated 'again' can also mean 'from above.' The New Birth is not in ourselves as I should from John 1:13. It comes from above, from God, and from Him alone.

:applause::applause::applause: very helpful post.....truthful, and clear.

 

[Van]

And the birds of a feather keep posting, praising one another for clarity, when they are denying the obvious. John 1:12 defines "receiving" as "believing in the name of" so the effort to redefine the words to nullify the verse is obvious.

You would think the penny would drop, but they continue to say, this verse, then that verse, then this other verse, none mean what they say.

They claim being chosen through faith in the truth does not mean our election for salvation is conditional. Amazing denial of the obvious.

They claim John 1:12 does not clearly teach we believe before we are given the power or right to become children of God. Amazing denial of the obvious.

Some of them even claim Christ is not the means of salvation. Amazing denial of the obvious.

Our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:1-2. If God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Just as the men of Matthew 23:13 had the power to seek God, for they were actually in the process of entering heaven, some fallen people have the spiritual ability to seek God and trust in Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

And the birds of a feather keep posting, praising one another for clarity, when they are denying the obvious. John 1:12 defines "receiving" as "believing in the name of" so the effort to redefine the words to nullify the verse is obvious.

You would think the penny would drop, but they continue to say, this verse, then that verse, then this other verse, none mean what they say.

They claim being chosen through faith in the truth does not mean our election for salvation is conditional. Amazing denial of the obvious.

They claim John 1:12 does not clearly teach we believe before we are given the power or right to become children of God. Amazing denial of the obvious.

Some of them even claim Christ is not the means of salvation. Amazing denial of the obvious.

Our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:1-2. If God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Just as the men of Matthew 23:13 had the power to seek God, for they were actually in the process of entering heaven, some fallen people have the spiritual ability to seek God and trust in Christ.

The Bible does not say anyone is saved...BECAUSE of faith.

It does say we are saved by or through faith.......

So that is why MM has the only accurate post on this as he views the whole passage not just what some would cherry pick and give their own subjective meaning to.

 

[kyredneck]

The Bible does not say anyone 'goes to heaven' because of, or by, or through faith.

Also, the Bible does not say 'saved' means 'go to heaven', or 'saved from hell'. Few places is 'saved' linked to eternal consequences in the Bible.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Some of them even claim Christ is not the means of salvation. Amazing denial of the obvious.

Some people confuse the fisherman with the fishing-rod, the carpenter with the hammer or nails, the doctor with the medicine, the golfer with his nine iron........

........and of course, the Saviour with the means of salvation.

 

[Van]

It just gets more amazing by the post. Now "faith alone" is denied.

Did anyone say were are saved because of our faith? Nope. So obfuscation on display. We are saved through faith. Faith provides our access to the grace in which we stand. We are saved by grace through faith.

Next we get entering heaven is said not to mean entering salvation. I kid you not. They parse, nit pit, make distinctions without a difference, anything to deny the obvious.

The bible contains phrases like "the kingdom of heaven" the "kingdom of God", and the "kingdom of His Son." They all refer to the spiritual abode of God and those saved.

They claim being chosen through faith in the truth does not mean our election for salvation is conditional. 2 Thessalonians 2:13

They claim John 1:12 does not clearly teach we believe before we are given the power or right to become children of God.

Some of them even claim Christ is not the means of salvation.

Our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:1-2. If God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He sets us apart in Christ, 2 Thessalonians 2:13. Just as the men of Matthew 23:13 had the power to seek God, for they were actually in the process of entering heaven, some fallen people have the spiritual ability to seek God and trust in Christ.

 

[kyredneck]

It just gets more amazing by the post. Now "faith alone" is denied.....

The problem here is you want faith to mean YOUR choice, YOUR decision, YOUR will, when it's not that. It's a deep conviction or persuasion of something.

 

[Van]

No I do not. Why must you misrepresent my view? You should not fear truth. My faith is worthless, a filthy rag. God and God alone, and certainly not an agenda driven person, determines whether or not my faith will be credited as righteousness. Whether it is deep or shallow, my will or the will of my parents or pastor, does not matter. If God credits it as righteousness, it provides my access to the grace in which I stand. So simple a concept, but for some reason they pretend they cannot grasp it. Go figure.