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Matthew 5:17-19 Keeping the Torah

kyredneck

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These Messianics sound like 7th-Day Adventists

For that matter, many Baptists are trying to keep all of them, too - even trying to turn Sunday into a Sabbath

For that matter, a large portion of the Sermon on the Mount amounts to nothing less than an exposition on the law given by the Author of the law showing the spirituality of the law to those to whom the law was given.

Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy; for I Jehovah your God am holy. Lev 19:2

Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Mt 5:48
 

Van

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HankD said:
I have my own conviction but what do others think about our responsibility to the “Torah” as born again believers in Jesus Christ?

As born anew believers, there is no burden of retribution for when we violate, knowingly or unknowingly the commands laid down under the old covenant.

Paul makes clear that even before the Law was given, people piled up wrath for unknowingly violating God's requirements of holy living.

Today, are unsaved people piling up wrath for violating the Law of Moses?
I think not. But, as before the Law was given, they are piling up wrath for knowingly and unknowingly violating God's requirements of holy living.

I have a different take on the Law as schoolmaster, I think it still serves in that capacity, teaching those seeking the righteousness of God, that they are wretched sinners, just as Paul learned - Romans 7 - and therefore being lead to the conclusion they need a Savior.
 

HankD

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As born anew believers, there is no burden of retribution for when we violate, knowingly or unknowingly the commands laid down under the old covenant.

Paul makes clear that even before the Law was given, people piled up wrath for unknowingly violating God's requirements of holy living.

Today, are unsaved people piling up wrath for violating the Law of Moses?
I think not. But, as before the Law was given, they are piling up wrath for knowingly and unknowingly violating God's requirements of holy living.

I have a different take on the Law as schoolmaster, I think it still serves in that capacity, teaching those seeking the righteousness of God, that they are wretched sinners, just as Paul learned - Romans 7 - and therefore being lead to the conclusion they need a Savior.
Yes I do as well Van. I believe it has both a macro and micro function, first on a global basis then at the individual level in conviction/reproval of sin.

HankD
 

JamesL

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For that matter, a large portion of the Sermon on the Mount amounts to nothing less than an exposition on the law given by the Author of the law showing the spirituality of the law to those to whom the law was given.

Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy; for I Jehovah your God am holy. Lev 19:2

Ye therefore shall be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect. Mt 5:48

Sermon on the Mount is one of the most misunderstood passages in the scriptures
 

HankD

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Apologies. I see that now.

Not a problem.

Thanks again for your input.

My estimation :I liked the piece, while I do see that the precepts of the law can be categorized into subsets, it doesn't seem clear to me that the New Testament also categorizes the law in that manner and gives these categories names. i.e. The moral law, the dietary law, etc. but that law seems a unit (when the Law of Moses is the topic).

He does makes a good point concerning the evil of antinomianism

However there are those in the Hebrew Roots (HR) movement who belittle and ridicule Christians who emphasize salvation by grace through faith and give us the label of Torah-less and transform that label into "lawless" because we don't keep what Torah we can e.g. Keeping the Sabbath, keeping the dietary laws (no pork, shellfish, creeping things, etc).


HankD
 

kyredneck

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....However there are those in the Hebrew Roots (HR) movement who belittle and ridicule Christians who emphasize salvation by grace through faith and give us the label of Torah-less and transform that label into "lawless" because we don't keep what Torah we can e.g. Keeping the Sabbath, keeping the dietary laws (no pork, shellfish, creeping things, etc).


HankD

Judaizers would be the correct description.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

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Jesus fulfilled the Law , then abolished it.

2Cor 3 tells us that once the Spirit was given, the written Law became obsolete.

Hebrews 7-10 contrasts the animals vs. Christ, the High Priest vs. Christ, the covering of sin vs. the removal of sin, etc.

1Timothy 1:8-10 says plainly that the Law is not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous

The Law as a schoolmaster bringing "us" to Christ is not speaking about conversion. Paul was talking pre-cross believers vs. post-cross believers - fellowship with God through the Spirit.

Before the cross, believers observed the Law. After the cross, we follow the Spirit

You mean, you follow your spirit.

No thanks; a 'spirit' testifying of himself is not the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ and the Father.
 

Gerhard Ebersoehn

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As born anew believers, there is no burden of retribution for when we violate, knowingly or unknowingly the commands laid down under the old covenant.

Paul makes clear that even before the Law was given, people piled up wrath for unknowingly violating God's requirements of holy living.

Today, are unsaved people piling up wrath for violating the Law of Moses?
I think not. But, as before the Law was given, they are piling up wrath for knowingly and unknowingly violating God's requirements of holy living.

I have a different take on the Law as schoolmaster, I think it still serves in that capacity, teaching those seeking the righteousness of God, that they are wretched sinners, just as Paul learned - Romans 7 - and therefore being lead to the conclusion they need a Savior.

The Law is holy and good and perfect and eternal as far as it goes.

The Law is not Jesus Christ the Son of God who is the Law of God because He has been the holy and good and perfect and eternal WORD of God from eternity.

The Law does not bring anyone to the Father or the Son. the Son draws the elect to the Father and the Father draws the elect to the Son.

Jesus raised from the dead is the believer's only Law.

Some people reckon themselves better Christians than others because they supposedly keep the Torah, especially the Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD.

"True believers" as Jesus called them don't believe anything is it not because of His Resurrection.

For no reason do true believers believe "the day The Seventh Day Sabbath OF THE LORD GOD" than that "God raised Christ BY THE GLORY OF THE FATHER" and "on the Seventh Day finished" in his Glory; and with his Glory "blessed the Seventh Day" and to his own Glory "hallowed the day The Seventh Day" and by his Glory, the Glory of the Father IN THE SON, "the Seventh Day from all his works, RESTED".
 

HankD

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My conclusion is that this HR movement (of which some deny either the deity of Christ or the doctrine of the Trinity) is covered by Acts 15

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

Some HR teachers are more adamant than others.

Personally if people want to keep the mosaic commandments, the Hebrew feasts, etc then they are at liberty IMO to do them as long as they understand the grace-faith principles taught by the apostles and namely Paul. If they (messianics) understand that Christ fulfilled the law then let them have at it.

Again a personal note, even if this were God's expectation as we mature, the way it is being presented is an overreach for babes in Christ.

I'd rather be "least in the kingdom" than hang this albatross around the neck of young disciples.

HankD
 

HankD

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Hi Aaron,

I found Pink’s exposition of the Sermon on the Mount online and yes Pink gives a good warning against antinomianism.
This is why I prefer to say that Christ “fulfilled” the Law rather than abolished it because it did have its purposes and still does IMO.

As I said in the opening post, the challenge/dilemma is that of the 613 precepts (Heb – mitzvoth) of the Law of Moses, there are about 270 (according to Judaism itself) that are impossible to keep because 1) You must live in the land to keep them, 2) The two things which occurred in AD70 a) There is no temple in Jerusalem and b) there is no Levitical priesthood to do the necessary ordinances.

That along with Paul’s admonition: Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Galatians 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.

And James:
James 2:10 For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all.

Then there are those scriptures which have been presented. e.g.Acts 10, Acts 15 and the bearing they have upon the issues above.

1 Galatians 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Romans 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

Otherwise we are on “the horns of a dilemma” because of Matthew 5 :17-22 unless of course as Jesus says it has indeed been fulfilled by none other than Himself..

HankD
Just a bit more for those who don't have a full understanding of grace and what it can do but not the Law of Moses..

The converted heart needs no external law other than the law of faith/love and the maturity and transformation of the Spirit who has born the fruit of the Spirit in the heart of the believer.

2 Corinthians 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

As opposed to:

Matthew 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

The law of agape love:

1 Corinthians 13
4 Love suffers long and is kind; love does not envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed up;
5 does not behave rudely, does not seek its own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
6 does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in the truth;
7 bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
...
11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

Galatians 5
19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
24 And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.
26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

Romans 13:10 Love does no harm to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

You don't have to make a law for sheep telling them to stay out of the cesspool.

HankD

 
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Yeshua1

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[FONT=&quot]Recently there has been an increase of messianic Christianity (at least in my area of Washington) and some of the messianics involved with the “Hebrew Roots” (HR) of Christianity movement are teaching that the Torah (The law of Moses in the first 5 books of the Bible) is still to be kept along with the Sabbath and the dietary laws.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I am a gentile of Italian extraction however my maternal side is Jewish of Prussian extraction. They came to America in 1890-1897 and therefore missed the holocaust by almost a half-century. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]There was only a mention or so of my grandmothers Jewishness as I was g[FONT=&quot]rowing up[FONT=&quot], she died young and I hardly knew her at all [FONT=&quot]so,[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT] I knew nothing of the practice of Judaism as my maternal grandmother allowed my mother to be baptized a Catholic Christian at my maternal grandfather’s insistence. My knowledge of Talmudic Judaism is very limited.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The foundational premise of these messianics is based upon the following Scripture:[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 5:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]17 Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. [/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The one very large challenge is that according to Judaism itself (Talmudic Judaism) there are 613 “Mitzvouth” “commandments” in the Law of Moses (Torah) of which approximately 270 of them cannot be kept as there is no temple in Jerusalem and no Levitical priest to carry out the ordinance’s. I have my own conviction but what do others think about our responsibility to the “Torah” as born again believers in Jesus Christ?[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]I suppose a lot depends upon the exposition of the above scripture in the context of Jesus followers being a witness in and to the world via our post salvation good works.

[FONT=&quot]HankD[/FONT]
[/FONT]

Jesus himself stated though that all of that would end when he accomplished his work on the Cross...
Jewish converts are free in him to keep their traditions but be careful, lest they go into Judaizing, and seeing that its by keeping
the Torah and the Feasts that gets them saved!,
 

kyredneck

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Did you notice this mention in post 28?:

"However there are those in the Hebrew Roots (HR) movement who belittle and ridicule Christians who emphasize salvation by grace through faith and give us the label of Torah-less and transform that label into "lawless" because we don't keep what Torah we can e.g. Keeping the Sabbath, keeping the dietary laws (no pork, shellfish, creeping things, etc)."

Let's pray this movement doesn't catch on.
 

kyredneck

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"What is the Hebrew Roots movement?"

"Answer: The premise of the Hebrew Roots movement is the belief that the Church has veered far from the true teachings and Hebrew concepts of the Bible. The movement maintains that Christianity has been indoctrinated with the culture and beliefs of Greek and Roman philosophy and that ultimately biblical Christianity, taught in churches today, has been corrupted with a pagan imitation of the New Testament gospels.

Those of the Hebrew Roots belief hold to the teaching that Christ's death on the cross did not end the Mosaic Covenant, but instead renewed it, expanded its message, and wrote it on the hearts of His true followers. They teach that the understanding of the New Testament can only come from a Hebrew perspective and that the teachings of the Apostle Paul are not understood clearly or taught correctly by Christian pastors today. Many affirm the existence of an original Hebrew-language New Testament and, in some cases, denigrate the existing New Testament text written in Greek. This becomes a subtle attack on the reliability of the text of our Bible. If the Greek text is unreliable and has been corrupted, as is charged by some, the Church no longer has a standard of truth.

Although there are many different and diverse Hebrew Roots assemblies with variations in their teachings, they all adhere to a common emphasis on recovering the "original" Jewishness of Christianity. Their assumption is that the Church has lost its Jewish roots and is unaware that Jesus and His disciples were Jews living in obedience to the Torah. For the most part, those involved advocate the need for every believer to walk a Torah-observant life. This means that the ordinances of the Mosaic Covenant must be a central focus in the lifestyle of believers today as it was with the Old Testament Jews of Israel. Keeping the Torah includes keeping the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week (Saturday), celebrating the Jewish feasts and festivals, keeping the dietary laws, avoiding the "paganism" of Christianity (Christmas, Easter, etc.), and learning to understand the Scriptures from a Hebrew mindset. They teach that Gentile Christians have been grafted into Israel, and this is one reason every born-again believer in Jesus the Messiah is to participate in these observances. It is expressed that doing this is not required out of legalistic bondage, but out of a heart of love and obedience. However, they teach that to live a life that pleases God, this Torah-observant walk must be part of that life.

The Hebrew Roots assemblies are often made up of a majority of Gentiles, including Gentile rabbis. Usually they prefer to be identified as "Messianic Christians." Many have come to the conclusion that God has "called" them to be Jewish and have accepted the theological position that the Torah (Old Testament law) is equally binding on Gentiles and Jews alike. They often wear articles of traditional Jewish clothing, practice Davidic dancing, and incorporate Hebrew names and phrases into their writing and conversations. Most reject the use of the name "Jesus" in favor of Yeshua or YHWH, claiming that these are the "true" names that God desires for Himself. In most cases, they elevate the Torah as the foundational teaching for the Church, which brings about the demotion of the New Testament, causing it to become secondary in importance and only to be understood in light of the Old Testament. The idea that the New Testament is faulty and relevant only in light of the Old Testament has also brought the doctrine of the Trinity under attack by many advocates of the Hebrew Roots beliefs......

....The influence of this movement is working its way into our churches and seminaries. It's dangerous in its implication that keeping the Old Covenant law is walking a "higher path" and is the only way to please God and receive His blessings. ...."
 

HankD

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"What is the Hebrew Roots movement?"

"Answer: The premise of the Hebrew Roots movement is the belief that the Church has veered far from the true teachings and Hebrew concepts of the Bible. The movement maintains that Christianity has been indoctrinated with the culture and beliefs of Greek and Roman philosophy and that ultimately biblical Christianity, taught in churches today, has been corrupted with a pagan imitation of the New Testament gospels.

Those of the Hebrew Roots belief hold to the teaching that Christ's death on the cross did not end the Mosaic Covenant, but instead renewed it, expanded its message, and wrote it on the hearts of His true followers. They teach that the understanding of the New Testament can only come from a Hebrew perspective and that the teachings of the Apostle Paul are not understood clearly or taught correctly by Christian pastors today. Many affirm the existence of an original Hebrew-language New Testament and, in some cases, denigrate the existing New Testament text written in Greek. This becomes a subtle attack on the reliability of the text of our Bible. If the Greek text is unreliable and has been corrupted, as is charged by some, the Church no longer has a standard of truth.

Although there are many different and diverse Hebrew Roots assemblies with variations in their teachings, they all adhere to a common emphasis on recovering the "original" Jewishness of Christianity. Their assumption is that the Church has lost its Jewish roots and is unaware that Jesus and His disciples were Jews living in obedience to the Torah. For the most part, those involved advocate the need for every believer to walk a Torah-observant life. This means that the ordinances of the Mosaic Covenant must be a central focus in the lifestyle of believers today as it was with the Old Testament Jews of Israel. Keeping the Torah includes keeping the Sabbath on the seventh day of the week (Saturday), celebrating the Jewish feasts and festivals, keeping the dietary laws, avoiding the "paganism" of Christianity (Christmas, Easter, etc.), and learning to understand the Scriptures from a Hebrew mindset. They teach that Gentile Christians have been grafted into Israel, and this is one reason every born-again believer in Jesus the Messiah is to participate in these observances. It is expressed that doing this is not required out of legalistic bondage, but out of a heart of love and obedience. However, they teach that to live a life that pleases God, this Torah-observant walk must be part of that life.

The Hebrew Roots assemblies are often made up of a majority of Gentiles, including Gentile rabbis. Usually they prefer to be identified as "Messianic Christians." Many have come to the conclusion that God has "called" them to be Jewish and have accepted the theological position that the Torah (Old Testament law) is equally binding on Gentiles and Jews alike. They often wear articles of traditional Jewish clothing, practice Davidic dancing, and incorporate Hebrew names and phrases into their writing and conversations. Most reject the use of the name "Jesus" in favor of Yeshua or YHWH, claiming that these are the "true" names that God desires for Himself. In most cases, they elevate the Torah as the foundational teaching for the Church, which brings about the demotion of the New Testament, causing it to become secondary in importance and only to be understood in light of the Old Testament. The idea that the New Testament is faulty and relevant only in light of the Old Testament has also brought the doctrine of the Trinity under attack by many advocates of the Hebrew Roots beliefs......

....The influence of this movement is working its way into our churches and seminaries. It's dangerous in its implication that keeping the Old Covenant law is walking a "higher path" and is the only way to please God and receive His blessings. ...."
kyredneck, This is what troubled me when we lost a member to the HR movement and I looked into their teachings.
The scripture in Acts 15 hit the nail squarely on the head:

Acts 15:24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

subverting (plundering).

Not only that many/most HR leaders deny the deity of Christ or the doctrine of the Trinity. Usually it is subtle. You wont find either doctrine (it is strangely missing) from their "what we believe" statements.

One of them actually said that Jesus (Yeshua - as they call Him) was the "right hand of God" - a strange kind of modalism.

What is mystifying to me is that some Christians actually succumb to this teaching when the scripture is so dead set against it.


HankD
 
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