Did God pour out His anger, His wrath upon His Son, Christ, when He was crucified?
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God's dealing with His Son on the cross
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
- Start date
Can't argue with Isaiah 53!
53:1 Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
53:2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
53:3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
53:4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
53:8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
53:9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.
53:12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors... Brother Glen
Amen!
In truth this is said about all Jesus' life. From conception and birth, his way was that to the cross. The plague was upon Him all his life, only to have culminated in his death.
But at the Last Supper Jesus said with this Scripture in mind no doubt:
"53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand" . . . "My soul is exceeding death, sorrowful" until "God loosed the pains of death" with "the death of death in the death of Christ" [John Owen] and Christ had gone "forth, out of Egypt" land of oppression and had "put an end" to "the plague that was upon Him", "three days (of) thick darkness" "when the God of peace", "RAISED Christ by the EXCEEDING GREATNESS OF HIS POWER", and "brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus that Great Shepherd of the sheep", "on the third day according to the Scriptures", "through the blood OF THE EVERLASTING COVENANT", and "order after the POWER OF INDESTRUCTIBLE LIFE".
"By SO MUCH indeed was Jesus made SURETY of the Better Testament." His blood was poured out IN HIS LIFE; not his life poured out in his blood!
His blood was poured out in his life BY HIS OWN WILL; not his life poured out in his blood BY THE WILL OF MEN!
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I would not be so sure on that mon ami. There are some on here who would argue with a mud fence.
:thumbsup::thumbs::applause:
:applause::applause::applause::applause:
The plague was upon him???
He was not a leper! He was never sick. He was perfect and sinless in all his ways. In all things he submitted to his Father. He came to do the will of His Father. He was God come in the flesh. It is impossible for God to "have the plague upon him," no matter how you allegorize this. This is as good as blasphemy IMO. He was and is deity; not a plague. He was the Healer, not the diseased.
Furthermore, when on the cross, it was for the love of all mankind that he shed His blood. He went willingly. "He laid his life down; He took it up again; No man would take if from him." It was his choice, as he prayed in the garden, a choice of submission to the Father, a choice made out of both obedience as a man, and out of love as God.
When he cried out: "My God; My God; Why hast thou forsaken me!" there was no wrath. In that moment of time it was if God the Father turned his back on God the Son while he bore the ultimate penalty of the sins of the world out of His love for mankind. What anger? What wrath? This was pure love.
Interesting question.
As far as I know, the Bible never says "God poured out his wrath" on Jesus. It says the sins of the whole world was put on him. It says the iniquities of us all were laid on him. It says God made Jesus to be sin for us. But wrath? I don't know.
Bible search found this:
Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
That kind of obliquely implies that God's wrath was put on Jesus instead of us.
As far as I know, the Bible never says "God poured out his wrath" on Jesus. It says the sins of the whole world was put on him. It says the iniquities of us all were laid on him. It says God made Jesus to be sin for us. But wrath? I don't know.
Bible search found this:
Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
That kind of obliquely implies that God's wrath was put on Jesus instead of us.
No that is not "obliquely" that is clear and to the point. However, if you do a study on the word propitiation you will have your answer.
Romans 5:9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!
We are justified by his blood, it says.
In verse one it says: "being justified by faith..."
Almost every source I read the phrase "shall be saved from God's wrath through him," refers to a coming judgment such as the Lake of Fire or perhaps even the Great Tribulation. It has nothing to do with "God's wrath on the Son" so-called.
Exactly!! It's all about propitiation. The best definition I know for 'propitiation' is the expiatory victim of God's wrath.
I agree it was us, sinful mankind that deserved the wrath of God!... I can't comprehend nor understand that love... Can anyone?... Its beyond our finite human understanding... Brother Glen
Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
27:47 Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man calleth for Elias.
27:48 And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
27:49 The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
27:50 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
"TRULY THIS WAS THE SON OF GOD"!... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAMEN!
I think it would be hard to enforce a view of "wrath" being poured out in the sense of God pouring out judgment in the past as well as eternally, simply because this was what the Lord came to do. In other words, the Father held no wrath that was directed at the Lord, but rather it was more or less His own will being carried out. That does not negate the fact that the penalty of sin was placed upon Him. But wrath? I don't really see it that way. Not in a sense where enmity is present. And while we might view in a spiritual sense, it seems to me that the New Testament is pretty clear what it is that redeemed us from our sin, and that is the death of Christ. Nothing else is attributed as necessary for the remission of sins (and I am not negating what happens in our lives when we receive remission, such as the New Birth).
Concerning "My God, My God...why hast thou forsaken me," I see an importance to remembering that this is a quotation. I do not take the view that the Father had abandoned the Son, nor think that is even possible.
This verse...
John 16:32
King James Version (KJV)
32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.
...is enough for me to take that view. The Lord speaks of the time when He would be abandoned by all men, yet the Father is with Him, and He seems to indicate He is not alone, even in that time that is coming.
As far as mud fences, I have to protest the belittling of them, some of them debate better than some I have spoken with on Forums...
God bless.
Were going to have to start calling you Brother Pollster... Brother Glen:wavey:
To say that God's wrath was not directed at and upon Jesus on the cross is quite mind-numbing. Look at the word 'propitiation' used in 1 John 2:2:
It means to appease, placate, pacify, &c.
http://www.theopedia.com/propitiation
It means to appease, placate, pacify, &c.
http://www.theopedia.com/propitiation
You have got to study propitiation. It will clear this up for you. This is no small or secondary issue.
Yes. :thumbsup::applause:
Only when rapidly ingesting slurpees...
Could you show me how propitiation and the pouring out of wrath by God are identical concepts?
God bless.
I did, your entire post is based on confusion and lack of understanding. I do not say that as a slight but your comments about the wrath of God are no where near according to scripture and most certainly is not orthodox. If you have questions ask and we will try to guide you but I would suggest you go back and study propitiation thoroughly before discussing it any further.