Body or not?

[agedman]

This is NOT AN OPINION thread - unlike some of the others I started.

Rather, I am looking for those of the BB who actually can support or actually dispute the bodily return of Christ to this earth to walk upon the earth, sit and talk as any two agreeable neighbors might with the people of the earth.

With that in mind, I propose the following questions be addressed by members of the BB with supporting verses.

1. Is there Scripture proof that the Lord Jesus Christ will return in the flesh (in like manner as He ascended) to this earth touching down upon some part of the earth?
   
2. Is there Scripture proof that the Lord Jesus Christ will actually sit on a throne in the Jerusalem that is in the middle east?
3. Is there Scripture proof of the Lord Jesus Christ ALREADY having come?

As the thread develops, perhaps there are other questions pertaining to the thread purpose that may also be attended.

 

[Darrell C]

This is NOT AN OPINION thread - unlike some of the others I started.

Rather, I am looking for those of the BB who actually can support or actually dispute the bodily return of Christ to this earth to walk upon the earth, sit and talk as any two agreeable neighbors might with the people of the earth.

With that in mind, I propose the following questions be addressed by members of the BB with supporting verses.

1. Is there Scripture proof that the Lord Jesus Christ will return in the flesh (in like manner as He ascended) to this earth touching down upon some part of the earth?
   
2. Is there Scripture proof that the Lord Jesus Christ will actually sit on a throne in the Jerusalem that is in the middle east?
3. Is there Scripture proof of the Lord Jesus Christ ALREADY having come?

As the thread develops, perhaps there are other questions pertaining to the thread purpose that may also be attended.

Question One: Yes.


Zechariah 14:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


Question Two: I am not dogmatic as to a literal throne on earth for the Lord (and don't think anyone can be), as I see the Lord's Throne as one of Sovereignty, which cannot be limited to a physical chair in the Millennial Kingdom.

It is just my view that the Lord's "home base" so to speak is in Heaven, and that He as well as those glorified prior to the Millennial Kingdom will reside in that place prepared for us. That does not mean He will not interact with men in this day, nor that the throne which is in physical Israel will not be His. But we don't replace the eternal with the physical, and I believe that in Israel there will be a literal King who is appointed to that position. In the Millennial Kingdom we will see the fulfillment of God's Promises to Israel which had their shadow in the Kingdom that arose through the Conquest. There is a multiple application to those promises, where we see physical rest when they enter the land, Spiritual Rest for those who enter into Christ, and both in the Millennial Kingdom. Culmination will be the Eternal State, not the Millennial Kingdom.

The Lord and the glorified saints will minister to the inhabitants of the Kingdom. It's exciting for me to think of having a ministry like unto that performed by Angels in this Age.

All that said, again, I would not be dogmatic to proclaim a literal throne, but at the same time, I do think that the Lord's presence on earth will be literal. But it will be similar to the shadow of the Law, wherein God's presence lay in the Holy Place. The Temple of the Millennial Kingdom could, possibly, be a literal bridge to the Holiest Place, that is, Heaven itself. At this point in time, Christ has opened the Holiest Place unto men through His Flesh (death), but, we enter into God's presence in the Holiest of All only through death ourselves. Christ, being God manifest in the flesh, fulfills what was lacking in the Old Testament, which was man literally coming into God's presence.

So if there is a "Throne" to which men approach God in the Millennial Kingdom, the example of the Law would cause us to consider that this approach would be associated with the Temple...not a Palace.


Question Three: You should clarify the context as to whether you are referring to the First or Second Coming. While I assume you are referring to the doctrinal view of some which view Christ's Return as a "spiritual" return, rather than the literal Return that the futurist embraces, it would be better if the need for assumption was removed from the question.

Question Three answered if the First Coming is in view: Yes.

Question Three answered if the Second Coming is in view: No. Scripture makes it clear in Prophecy that the Lord will literally return and establish the Kingdom promised to Israel. While most of us agree that the Kingdom of God has always been in existence, and that God is Sovereign, we have to neglect Prophecy and Promise to conclude that what we have now is all that's on the books (no pun intended).

Various cults have predicted Christ's coming, one in particular going so far as to redefine what that coming meant to save face. When Christ Returns, there will be no confusion as to it's reality.


Revelation 1:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


God bless.

 

[agedman]

I am referring to the view that some may have that Christ NEVER physically touches the present earth.

 

[Darrell C]

I am referring to the view that some may have that Christ NEVER physically touches the present earth.

Understood.

I don't see anyone defending that view.


God bless.

 

[MB]

.

1. Is there Scripture proof that the Lord Jesus Christ will return in the flesh (in like manner as He ascended) to this earth touching down upon some part of the earth?
   
2. Is there Scripture proof that the Lord Jesus Christ will actually sit on a throne in the Jerusalem that is in the middle east?
3. Is there Scripture proof of the Lord Jesus Christ ALREADY having come?

As the thread develops, perhaps there are other questions pertaining to the thread purpose that may also be attended.

qestion 1

Zec 14:4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
Zec 14:5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
Might want to study the whole chapter.
question 2

Act 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
question 3

I asked a J.W. this question too but not even he could show such proof even though he believed it.
MB

 

[agedman]

I took the idea from another thread. Here is the conversation from that thread.

Understood.

I don't see anyone defending that view.
God bless.

You do well to separate these verses because the former is distinctly in regards to the Rapture and applicable to believers, while the Second simply presents the order, which separates Christ's glorification from those at His Coming, and then comes the end. If there is only one, why point out "...each in his own order?"

No. Extreme futurists such as yourself must fragment in order to support your fabrications. There's no separation called for here.

And the mention of the Millennial Kingdom is found in Revelation 20....

Wrong. You're misrepresenting me. Christ is reigning from heaven. No where in the entire book does Christ ever set foot on terra firma.

Bold emphasis mine.

I took that (bold) and that is what prompted the thread.

In no way am I suggesting that kyredneck would not find the physical presence of Christ upon this earth's terra firma somewhere in the Scriptures, and he did restrict the comment to the book of the Revelation.

I don't agree with his assessment, but I desired to see who would "draw swords" and bring consideration upon the matter.

 

[agedman]

You are describing full Preterism which teaches that Jesus returned in the 1st Century.

Are there Preterism folks on the BB?

 

[Reformed]

Are there Preterism folks on the BB?

Oh, yes.

 

[asterisktom]

Understood.

I don't see anyone defending that view.


God bless.

On the contrary, I would defend that view.

I apologize for not posting here sooner. I have been wrapped up in ongoing discussions on FB concerning Genesis. I believe a global flood, and some of my fellow preterists are contesting that view.

 

[Darrell C]

I took the idea from another thread. Here is the conversation from that thread.








Bold emphasis mine.

I took that (bold) and that is what prompted the thread.

In no way am I suggesting that kyredneck would not find the physical presence of Christ upon this earth's terra firma somewhere in the Scriptures, and he did restrict the comment to the book of the Revelation.

I don't agree with his assessment, but I desired to see who would "draw swords" and bring consideration upon the matter.

I just meant I didn't see anyone defending it in this thread, lol.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

On the contrary, I would defend that view.

I apologize for not posting here sooner. I have been wrapped up in ongoing discussions on FB concerning Genesis. I believe a global flood, and some of my fellow preterists are contesting that view.

Well, that is par for the course when it comes to Genesis, there are just diverse views. I hope you have been able to prosper in that campaign.

In regards to the discussion at hand, I would begin, if you are going to defend the view that Christ never physically returns to earth, with this...


Zechariah 14

King James Version (KJV)

14 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.


And that is all I will start with.

By the way, just noticed your icon has you with a guitar, are you a guitarist?


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

the bodily return of Christ to this earth to walk upon the earth, sit and talk as any two agreeable neighbors might with the people of the earth.

You mean like carnally in lieu of spiritually. To actually be able to see Him with the carnal eye and touch Him with the carnal hand.

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Jn 18

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
Lu 17

18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, Heb 12

5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Pet 2

How do those jibe with your carnal expectations which basically are the same carnal expectations of the Jews that slew Him.?

 

[kyredneck]

You are describing full Preterism which teaches that Jesus returned in the 1st Century.

Christ came into His kingdom in the first century.

Verily I say unto you, there are some of them that stand here, who shall in no wise taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom. Matt. 16:28

 

[kyredneck]

Acts 1:11 They also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

A lot of hay has been made with the above passage by the literalists.

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his garments, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy: what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard the blasphemy: Matt 26

I assure you that every eye of those that pierced Him that He intended to see, saw Him on that horrible day. It's interesting to note that Josephus records that Annanias, along with thousands of other priests, perished during the siege of Jerusalem A.D. 70.

 

[agedman]

A lot of hay has been made with the above passage by the literalists.

63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou art the Christ, the Son of God.
64 Jesus said unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Henceforth ye shall see the Son of man sitting at the right hand of Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.
65 Then the high priest rent his garments, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy: what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard the blasphemy: Matt 26

I assure that every eye that He intended to see Him coming on that horrible day saw Him. It's interesting to note that Josephus records that Annanias perished during the siege of Jerusalem A.D. 70.

Ok now that I know you are Preterist, I understand.

 

[Reformed]

Ok now that I know you are Preterist, I understand.

I told you that they are here. There is an eclectic bunch on this board.

 

[Darrell C]

You mean like carnally in lieu of spiritually. To actually be able to see Him with the carnal eye and touch Him with the carnal hand.

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. Jn 18

20 And being asked by the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God cometh, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 neither shall they say, Lo, here! or, There! for lo, the kingdom of God is within you.
Lu 17

18 For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
22 but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, Heb 12

5 ye also, as living stones, are built up a spiritual house, to be a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 1 Pet 2

How do those jibe with your carnal expectations which basically are the same carnal expectations of the Jews that slew Him.?

Carnal does not always have a negative connotation that is exclusively the opposite of being "spiritual:"


1 Corinthians 9:9-14

King James Version (KJV)

9 For it is written in the law of Moses, thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?

10 Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope.

11 If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?

12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar?

14 Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.


In view is simply a general principle seen in Levitical Service, where those that ministered spiritual things were provided for by those ministered to. That provision was...carnal.


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

Ok now that I know you are Preterist, I understand.

Ohhhh, and never mind the scripture I presented.

 

[kyredneck]

I told you that they are here. There is an eclectic bunch on this board.

Ohhhh, and never mind the eclectic bunch of Puritans we have on this board.

 

[kyredneck]

There is an eclectic bunch on this board.

....which reminded me to give Tom a 'like' for taking time from China to participate on this thread.