Featured Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

They are fruity.

 

I didn't put a smiley-face to my post. But it was made in jest.

 

That is my point God sees the heart and knows which ones are and are not saved. He also knows which ones are walking in sin as believers, walking in carnality and are yet saved, yet so as through the fire which judges their rewards for eternity. God also will turn the carnal believer over to satan for destruction of the flesh when they fail to heed His chastening. If they fail to confess their sin immediately then they are in the flesh, the Spirit is not in control of their lives and they are carnal walking under the control and influence of that which they wouldn't do but are doing.

Paul it very clear what still dwells in every believer and that it can come forth and rule our lives thus making us carnal:

Romans 7:
"14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

Let's stop right here a minute. Sin dwelled in Paul after salvation. that is not sin as a commission or ommission but as a nature a part of the flesh.

18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Now again let's look at this, in our fleshly human body nothing good dwells, and yet we are told our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us is Paul making a contradiction here or a distinction! Let see, the outward man the man of the flesh, the part that houses the nature to sin does just that and can walk in sin. But the inward man that is the Spiritual man which is alive and in which the Holy Spirit dwells does no sin nor does sin dwell in it because it cannot since the Holy Spirit dwells within evry beliver.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Again sin dwelt in Paul that is the Old Sin Nature, dwelt in a man who was definitely a believer, who was most often filled with the Holy Spirit but definitely indwelt by Him. He says sin dwelt in him that sin (nature) caused him to that which he would not that is cause him to sin.

21 "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.'

Yet again evil is present within every believer and every believer can practice sin occasionally and some for long periods of time. Many hold grudges, many judge others and many cause dissent and have a preached run off, those are still members of the church and most likely saved but they are still immature babes and carnal.

22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"

You see it is our inward man who cannot sin.

23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

The old nature the law of nature man brought Paul back into captivity to the law of sin. Very much a Beliver can be brought back into captivity of sin, because Paul says he was at some point in his life. Because sin that is the nature of sin still dwells in all of mankind.

24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Until we receive a resurrection body we can still walk in the sarx and do that is every believer can walk in carnality at some point in their lives. The will be chastened by God, they will be disciplined by Him, in fact Job's friends told him he was being disciplined for some sin when in fact he was being tested. Now if a believer will not heed the chastening at some point that the Holy Spirit only knows they will be turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh that the soul might be saved yet so as through the fire.

 

And you have been stated at least in what I read for someone to be saved they must show fruit of some type. These examples I used did just that, had I not told the leaving of service you would have judged them as?

Why?

They bore fruit, they won folks to the Lord it seemed like. Maybe those who they won and produced good fruit might not be saved. So now we come to those who produce fruit all their professed Christian life:

will they be the ones whom:

Matthew 7:
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

This will answer us, if the men I mentioned produced good fruit that is actually won souls then they were a good tree. But an unbeliever cannot produce good fruit of any kind. So would that mean if one were brought to the Lord by an unbeliever then they are still an unbeliever. So if someone leads a person to the lord and latter drifts into practicing sin, the one whom they lead must not be saved either even though they produce what we see as fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

This would be those which many on this board judge as believers because they do such wonderful things for the Lord. Such good signs of their salvation, but you and I cannot see the inner man only God knows the Heart.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yet many will be cast out who performed such good things and had people believing them to be saved. We know our true heart we can say we are saved to someone else yet that person cannot tell if we are truly a believer or not because you cannot judge a man's works as to whether they are saved or not, but a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit and a corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit that is clear.

 

Let's go through your post and see what you said word for word. (#211)
You start off with a malicious attack:

Uncalled for. It doesn't address any of the points made in the previous post.
Your next remark in part begins this way:

It is a reference to the adulterous woman in John four. The point is, that just as in John 8, Jesus did associate with those who committed the "sin of fornication." You ridiculed the point and would not accept it.

The discussion comes down to 1Cor.5:9
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
--I had said: "If there is a fornicator in your church don't keep company with him." was Paul's teaching.
Your reply:

But Paul was stating a general principle applicable to that one person.

Then I quoted Matthew 18:17 saying that the church should follow the instruction of Jesus given in Matthew 18 for disciplining a member in sin.
Your reply:

This was the situation. It was the discipline of a brother in sin.

Coming to verse 10
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
--I had said:
It is speaking of sinners in general, not of saints, or members of the church. If they had to avoid "the fornicators of the world, etc...." then the rapture would have to take place.

Your reply:

But you are wrong. Actually you seem to be contradicting yourself. The point is obvious. The world is full of fornicators. Jesus talked with two of them. To avoid such people you would have to be taken out of the world (raptured )

NOW LOOK CAREFULLY:
I said:
The Bible teaches that we get to heaven by his grace. It is not by works, (You agreed)
And then I said:
neither are we kept out by certain deeds or misdeeds. You describe a religion of works.

To which you replied:

 

Now one more example:

A church member (probably believer) by confession of mouth a believer, serves God for years. Has the gift of teaching children. But falls and begins to live in sin. You can see the chastening of the Lord in their lives but they refuse to return and serve God. Then cancer comes and the destruction of their body takes place and they pass away.

Were they saved or lost?

 

You can backslide, but if a person truly has the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, God won't keep them there for long. He chastises those who are his. And the conviction of the Holy Spirit is stronger than our flesh. So if a christian is carnal, God will chastise them and convict them out of it. "How shall those who are dead to sin live any longer therein?"

 

So if a church member who has turned from serving The Lord begins to have financial problems due to seeking worldly treasure, while not giving a portion to God, would you call that bad luck, bad decision making or chastisement from God?

 

Why ask you because you are the one who says they can't be Christians if they walk in the flesh. Yet I have given you three real life examples and by what you say they all would in the opinion of most who hold the view of no believer can live in caranality be judged not saved.

Yet each if they never fall would be judged by those same folks as believers because their works bare it out. But that as Christ said is not always true. After all the Pharisee's of Jesus's time were honored and respected and until Jesus began to rebuke them and show theior way false thought to be headed straight for heaven. While the dregs of society, the tax collectors, the women of the night, and possibly even the fishermen were considered lost. Yet Jesus gave us this:

Luke 18:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Publican wasn't allowed to enter the temple area where the "great pious people" were. Yet he stood afar off and was saved without entering the temple. For those who say a christian can't live carnally they seem to be saying unless every believer is holy like they think they should be and only commits a little sin, and prays as they do lord forgive us our sins then they have to be unsaved. Confession of sins is not saying Lord forgive us our sins that isn't confession of them, confession of them is naming them to God. Name the ones which are known sins and God will forgive of those which many don't realize are sins. We commit many sins we don't even realize are sins and practice every single day. Yet until we name the sin we knowing commit those unrigtousnesses aren't forgiven and that believer is walking under the influence of sin, which is in the flesh and carnal. Paul in Romans 7 makes it clear, Paul called the whole church at Corinth, carnal, but those who want to limit God's salvation will never admit that is what He is saying. God knows the heart and God knows those who are and who are not truly saved. He knows our every action and He even knows who will and who will not be saved, because He has foreknown them before the earth was ever created. God has always had people who were believers fall and follow sin Samson is an example, Lot vexed his rigjhteous soul daily living in Sodom. Yet we have them called as saved and believers. Example upon example, Jonah would be another, preaches the revival at Ninavah and gets angry at God for not destroying them instead of rejoicing that God saved them.

 

Let's stop your sentence there, in the middle, and continue it in this way:

...and then has a heart-attack so that he has no chance to repent, is he saved according to the Calvinist?

IMO, I leave it up to God. By observation the Calvinist says he was not a saved person. That is the problem by judging a person by "works." We don't know the heart.

 

"DHK,

. (#211)
okay...if you want to...we can do this-

DHK claims this....

...Post 211...is a response to your post 210....so is it really "starting off"...or responding to the nature of your post?

You said this;

 

I said:
The Bible teaches that we get to heaven by his grace. It is not by works,

And then I said:
neither are we kept out by certain deeds or misdeeds.

You replied:

Those who do not enter heaven are denied based on their works...or lack of works done in the body....if you knew the scriptures you would not post such a foolish and contra biblical thought.....that is why I am forced to oppose you so often....

2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

You then quoted the rest of Romans 2:2-11, and followed up with 25:51-45.

Icon, You have presented a clear presentation of salvation by works!
You could have just admitted that I was right when I said we don't get into heaven by our works.

 

It just too bad your view of of this as you call wicked doctrine was taught by Calvin, Henry and John Gill and they attributed it to the apostle Paul.

 

When I see someone crying during the invitation I know they have a heavy heart about something. Probably something they heard in the message has affected something happening in their life. But I have also had people tell me something they heard me say in a message and it was not in my notes and I never said what they heard, so where does that come from if not the Holy Spirit.