Is carnal christianity biblically correct?

[Rippon]

Look, gays can 'produce' fruit, but is it good?

They are fruity.

 

[SovereignGrace]

They are fruity.

People think that just because someone produces fruit(which is either good or evil), they are saved. I am sure to the other 11, Judas looked like a pretty good disciple. But God knows all peoples' hearts, whether it is stone or flesh. 'rev'mwc used two men as scenarios as in time of troubles, they turned and left. Insert gays into those scenarios. I am sure many gays who are members of a local 'church' do the same things they did. But that is no guarantee they are saved. Feeding the hungry, giving clothes to the needy, donating to charities, witnessing to the lost, are most noble causes. But as I stated, gays do this. They are not saved.

 

[Rippon]

I didn't put a smiley-face to my post. But it was made in jest.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I didn't put a smiley-face to my post. But it was made in jest.

I knew that. I have called them 'froot-loops' many times, but that is not very nice, or christian like either.

 

[revmwc]

Look, gays can 'produce' fruit, but is it good? They feed the hungry. They clothe the poor. They even witness to people, as many gays are 'members' of churches. Look at the 'United Church of Christ', some methodist churches, and I am thinking some liberal Presbyterian churches have gays in their ranks. So, I am sure they do many of the same things the two men you mentioned did prior to turning their backs on their church. But they are deceived, being still in their sins. What we call good and what God calls good are not even in the same area code I am afraid.

That is my point God sees the heart and knows which ones are and are not saved. He also knows which ones are walking in sin as believers, walking in carnality and are yet saved, yet so as through the fire which judges their rewards for eternity. God also will turn the carnal believer over to satan for destruction of the flesh when they fail to heed His chastening. If they fail to confess their sin immediately then they are in the flesh, the Spirit is not in control of their lives and they are carnal walking under the control and influence of that which they wouldn't do but are doing.

Paul it very clear what still dwells in every believer and that it can come forth and rule our lives thus making us carnal:

Romans 7:
"14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me."

Let's stop right here a minute. Sin dwelled in Paul after salvation. that is not sin as a commission or ommission but as a nature a part of the flesh.

18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not."

Now again let's look at this, in our fleshly human body nothing good dwells, and yet we are told our bodies are the temple of the Holy Spirit who dwells in us is Paul making a contradiction here or a distinction! Let see, the outward man the man of the flesh, the part that houses the nature to sin does just that and can walk in sin. But the inward man that is the Spiritual man which is alive and in which the Holy Spirit dwells does no sin nor does sin dwell in it because it cannot since the Holy Spirit dwells within evry beliver.

19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Again sin dwelt in Paul that is the Old Sin Nature, dwelt in a man who was definitely a believer, who was most often filled with the Holy Spirit but definitely indwelt by Him. He says sin dwelt in him that sin (nature) caused him to that which he would not that is cause him to sin.

21 "I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.'

Yet again evil is present within every believer and every believer can practice sin occasionally and some for long periods of time. Many hold grudges, many judge others and many cause dissent and have a preached run off, those are still members of the church and most likely saved but they are still immature babes and carnal.

22 "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:"

You see it is our inward man who cannot sin.

23 "But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members."

The old nature the law of nature man brought Paul back into captivity to the law of sin. Very much a Beliver can be brought back into captivity of sin, because Paul says he was at some point in his life. Because sin that is the nature of sin still dwells in all of mankind.

24 "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Until we receive a resurrection body we can still walk in the sarx and do that is every believer can walk in carnality at some point in their lives. The will be chastened by God, they will be disciplined by Him, in fact Job's friends told him he was being disciplined for some sin when in fact he was being tested. Now if a believer will not heed the chastening at some point that the Holy Spirit only knows they will be turned over to satan for destruction of the flesh that the soul might be saved yet so as through the fire.

 

[revmwc]

People think that just because someone produces fruit(which is either good or evil), they are saved. I am sure to the other 11, Judas looked like a pretty good disciple. But God knows all peoples' hearts, whether it is stone or flesh. 'rev'mwc used two men as scenarios as in time of troubles, they turned and left. Insert gays into those scenarios. I am sure many gays who are members of a local 'church' do the same things they did. But that is no guarantee they are saved. Feeding the hungry, giving clothes to the needy, donating to charities, witnessing to the lost, are most noble causes. But as I stated, gays do this. They are not saved.

And you have been stated at least in what I read for someone to be saved they must show fruit of some type. These examples I used did just that, had I not told the leaving of service you would have judged them as?

Why?

They bore fruit, they won folks to the Lord it seemed like. Maybe those who they won and produced good fruit might not be saved. So now we come to those who produce fruit all their professed Christian life:

will they be the ones whom:

Matthew 7:
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

This will answer us, if the men I mentioned produced good fruit that is actually won souls then they were a good tree. But an unbeliever cannot produce good fruit of any kind. So would that mean if one were brought to the Lord by an unbeliever then they are still an unbeliever. So if someone leads a person to the lord and latter drifts into practicing sin, the one whom they lead must not be saved either even though they produce what we see as fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

This would be those which many on this board judge as believers because they do such wonderful things for the Lord. Such good signs of their salvation, but you and I cannot see the inner man only God knows the Heart.

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Yet many will be cast out who performed such good things and had people believing them to be saved. We know our true heart we can say we are saved to someone else yet that person cannot tell if we are truly a believer or not because you cannot judge a man's works as to whether they are saved or not, but a good tree cannot produce corrupt fruit and a corrupt tree cannot produce good fruit that is clear.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Look, you said these guys did many things, and even(supposedly) led people to the Lord. The gays in 'churches' do the same thing when they 'witness' to people. These guys worked for their church. Gays work for their 'church', too. I am not saying they led them to the Lord, the men, that is. We know gays can not lead people to the Lord. But a tree that brings no good fruit is not a good tree, period. If you can not see that, I am sorry, I can not help you.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sinners do NOT walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 firmly attests to that biblical truth 'rev'mwc. We do, however, live in the flesh. That is exactly the same thought Paul was expressing in Romans 7. By your words, it could be saying Paul was a carnal christian. I am NOT saying you said that, by using your logic, it could get expressed that way.

Christians live in the flesh, but after the Spirit. That is why we sin. But when we sin, in comes Hebrews 12 where God chastens who? Those who He loves. Who does He love? Those who are in Christ, who are in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

Sinners walk in and after the flesh and when they sin, they are not chastened by God. God does not love those outside the covenant of Christ's effacacious works of the cross. Now, before you say I am wishy-washy and say that God changes from hating us to loving us after being saved, please let me clarify. God could see us rejoicing in heaven before He said 'Let there be Light.' ~2,000 years ago, John saw us there, too. The bible also says those that love Him are born of Him, affirmed by 'we love Him because He first loved us.' Why He chose some and not others is only privy to Him. He expressed that love in the God-man, who came and lived a sinless life, never sinned once, met every command the Law commanded, died as 'a ransom for many', satiated God's wrath, and ascended to the Father. God saw us, even we were sinners, in Christ. The Lamb was slain from the creation of the world. The payment occured in time, yet He was slain from the creation of the world.

Sorry about the tangent, but I wanted to clarify my belief. That tangent will cost you extra. I will PM you my address and you can mail me a cashier's check. Just kidding.

 

[DHK]

You did not quote me word for word. I clearly STATED THOSE WHO DO NOT GO INTO HEAVEN are judged by their works, or lack of works done in the body as scripture declares.
The unsaved would have to be sinless ly perfect to "earn or merit heaven"....it is impossible in that ALL SINNED in Adam, and all sin by experience.
I have posted this for years.
For you to suggest otherwise is sinful.
You are without excuse.
Christians believe in a salvation that works...the good works of the elect are ordained of God.
We work out our salvation, we do not work for it.phil2

Let's go through your post and see what you said word for word. (#211)
You start off with a malicious attack:

This is one of your worst posts yet...this is really bad.....you should delete this before anyone see's it. I will not tell them you posted this
Someone is BADLY CONFUSED.....and I know who it is

Uncalled for. It doesn't address any of the points made in the previous post.
Your next remark in part begins this way:

This lame attempt to avoid your posted error is not going to fly..

It is a reference to the adulterous woman in John four. The point is, that just as in John 8, Jesus did associate with those who committed the "sin of fornication." You ridiculed the point and would not accept it.

The discussion comes down to 1Cor.5:9
1Co 5:9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
--I had said: "If there is a fornicator in your church don't keep company with him." was Paul's teaching.
Your reply:

Paul was dealing with this one fornicator, and then by way of instruction and application we are taught how to deal with others in the same situation.

But Paul was stating a general principle applicable to that one person.

Then I quoted Matthew 18:17 saying that the church should follow the instruction of Jesus given in Matthew 18 for disciplining a member in sin.
Your reply:

This was not the situation in 1 cor 5.....the person was described by Paul as "that wicked person"

This was the situation. It was the discipline of a brother in sin.

Coming to verse 10
1Co 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
--I had said:
It is speaking of sinners in general, not of saints, or members of the church. If they had to avoid "the fornicators of the world, etc...." then the rapture would have to take place.

Your reply:

Another verse you completely miss.....he is saying you cannot avoid being around fornicators as long as we live in the sin cursed earth.....so he is telling them that is not what he is talking about

But you are wrong. Actually you seem to be contradicting yourself. The point is obvious. The world is full of fornicators. Jesus talked with two of them. To avoid such people you would have to be taken out of the world (raptured )

NOW LOOK CAREFULLY:
I said:
The Bible teaches that we get to heaven by his grace. It is not by works, (You agreed)
And then I said:
neither are we kept out by certain deeds or misdeeds. You describe a religion of works.

To which you replied:

Those who do not enter heaven are denied based on their works...or lack of works done in the body....if you knew the scriptures you would not post such a foolish and contra biblical thought.....that is why I am forced to oppose you so often....
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

You then quoted the rest of Romans 2:2-11, and followed up with 25:51-45.

You concluded that thought with this personal attack

You should not be teaching anyone with so much error in your thoughts

When if fact you had just presented a gospel based on works.
Icon, salvation is not by works as you have just presented.

 

[revmwc]

Sinners do NOT walk after the flesh but after the Spirit. Romans 8:1 firmly attests to that biblical truth 'rev'mwc. We do, however, live in the flesh. That is exactly the same thought Paul was expressing in Romans 7. By your words, it could be saying Paul was a carnal christian. I am NOT saying you said that, by using your logic, it could get expressed that way.

Christians live in the flesh, but after the Spirit. That is why we sin. But when we sin, in comes Hebrews 12 where God chastens who? Those who He loves. Who does He love? Those who are in Christ, who are in the Spirit, not in the flesh.

Sinners walk in and after the flesh and when they sin, they are not chastened by God. God does not love those outside the covenant of Christ's effacacious works of the cross. Now, before you say I am wishy-washy and say that God changes from hating us to loving us after being saved, please let me clarify. God could see us rejoicing in heaven before He said 'Let there be Light.' ~2,000 years ago, John saw us there, too. The bible also says those that love Him are born of Him, affirmed by 'we love Him because He first loved us.' Why He chose some and not others is only privy to Him. He expressed that love in the God-man, who came and lived a sinless life, never sinned once, met every command the Law commanded, died as 'a ransom for many', satiated God's wrath, and ascended to the Father. God saw us, even we were sinners, in Christ. The Lamb was slain from the creation of the world. The payment occured in time, yet He was slain from the creation of the world.

Sorry about the tangent, but I wanted to clarify my belief. That tangent will cost you extra. I will PM you my address and you can mail me a cashier's check. Just kidding.

Now one more example:

A church member (probably believer) by confession of mouth a believer, serves God for years. Has the gift of teaching children. But falls and begins to live in sin. You can see the chastening of the Lord in their lives but they refuse to return and serve God. Then cancer comes and the destruction of their body takes place and they pass away.

Were they saved or lost?

 

[heisrisen]

You can backslide, but if a person truly has the Holy Spirit dwelling within them, God won't keep them there for long. He chastises those who are his. And the conviction of the Holy Spirit is stronger than our flesh. So if a christian is carnal, God will chastise them and convict them out of it. "How shall those who are dead to sin live any longer therein?"

 

[SovereignGrace]

Now one more example:

A church member (probably believer) by confession of mouth a believer, serves God for years. Has the gift of teaching children. But falls and begins to live in sin. You can see the chastening of the Lord in their lives but they refuse to return and serve God. Then cancer comes and the destruction of their body takes place and they pass away.

Were they saved or lost?

Why ask me? I am not God. How is the chastening of the Lord obvious? Are you with them night and day? I am not being snarky, but too many absolutes here you are expressing when none really know. People have the gall to know God has a sinner under conviction, where that is a guess, and not absolute. Let me explain. My mom and dad would go to church off and on for years. One time they went when one of my sisters was in Saudi Arabia during Desert Swarm. She was in a field hospital in Rihad, right in the midst of it. One of the preachers was preaching that day and at the end of his sermon, he mentioned having someone(I am thinking son) over there. Well, mom lost it and started bawling. Now, some would jump at that and miscontrue her grief as conviction when it was her worrying about her daughter. So, we can not know when someone is under true conviction, though they popishly declare them under conviction.

Now to your scenario. Grace is not a one time 'shot/innoculation' one gets. Nay, but rather, it is a life sustaining grace one is given. Were are saved and kept by grace. If one falls into sin and shows no signs of repentance, you best be wary of them. When we sin, in comes the Spirit of God to chasten us. We repent and move on. Look, christians sin. A picture of our life took at one moment in our life would cause us to be put to shame. But is that picture indictive of our life en toto? No. If a person is saved as a gay and they go back to that lifestyle and shows no repentance, are they lost, I mean flat out lost bound for hell, or a carnal christian? The drug addict that is saved and then resorts to their previous lifestyle of smoking crack, shooting up herione, smoking meth, drinking themself into stupors, are they lost or carnal christians? It is the latter and not former.

The word christian means Christ-like. Is the crack house residing, herione shooting, alcoholic, meth smoking, and living the gay life Christ-like? Oh no!!

 

[revmwc]

Why ask me? I am not God. How is the chastening of the Lord obvious? Are you with them night and day? I am not being snarky, but too many absolutes here you are expressing when none really know. People have the gall to know God has a sinner under conviction, where that is a guess, and not absolute. Let me explain. My mom and dad would go to church off and on for years. One time they went when one of my sisters was in Saudi Arabia during Desert Swarm. She was in a field hospital in Rihad, right in the midst of it. One of the preachers was preaching that day and at the end of his sermon, he mentioned having someone(I am thinking son) over there. Well, mom lost it and started bawling. Now, some would jump at that and miscontrue her grief as conviction when it was her worrying about her daughter. So, we can not know when someone is under true conviction, though they popishly declare them under conviction.

Now to your scenario. Grace is not a one time 'shot/innoculation' one gets. Nay, but rather, it is a life sustaining grace one is given. Were are saved and kept by grace. If one falls into sin and shows no signs of repentance, you best be wary of them. When we sin, in comes the Spirit of God to chasten us. We repent and move on. Look, christians sin. A picture of our life took at one moment in our life would cause us to be put to shame. But is that picture indictive of our life en toto? No. If a person is saved as a gay and they go back to that lifestyle and shows no repentance, are they lost, I mean flat out lost bound for hell, or a carnal christian? The drug addict that is saved and then resorts to their previous lifestyle of smoking crack, shooting up herione, smoking meth, drinking themself into stupors, are they lost or carnal christians? It is the latter and not former.

The word christian means Christ-like. Is the crack house residing, herione shooting, alcoholic, meth smoking, and living the gay life Christ-like? Oh no!!

So if a church member who has turned from serving The Lord begins to have financial problems due to seeking worldly treasure, while not giving a portion to God, would you call that bad luck, bad decision making or chastisement from God?

 

[revmwc]

Why ask me? I am not God. How is the chastening of the Lord obvious? Are you with them night and day? I am not being snarky, but too many absolutes here you are expressing when none really know. People have the gall to know God has a sinner under conviction, where that is a guess, and not absolute. Let me explain. My mom and dad would go to church off and on for years. One time they went when one of my sisters was in Saudi Arabia during Desert Swarm. She was in a field hospital in Rihad, right in the midst of it. One of the preachers was preaching that day and at the end of his sermon, he mentioned having someone(I am thinking son) over there. Well, mom lost it and started bawling. Now, some would jump at that and miscontrue her grief as conviction when it was her worrying about her daughter. So, we can not know when someone is under true conviction, though they popishly declare them under conviction.

Now to your scenario. Grace is not a one time 'shot/innoculation' one gets. Nay, but rather, it is a life sustaining grace one is given. Were are saved and kept by grace. If one falls into sin and shows no signs of repentance, you best be wary of them. When we sin, in comes the Spirit of God to chasten us. We repent and move on. Look, christians sin. A picture of our life took at one moment in our life would cause us to be put to shame. But is that picture indictive of our life en toto? No. If a person is saved as a gay and they go back to that lifestyle and shows no repentance, are they lost, I mean flat out lost bound for hell, or a carnal christian? The drug addict that is saved and then resorts to their previous lifestyle of smoking crack, shooting up herione, smoking meth, drinking themself into stupors, are they lost or carnal christians? It is the latter and not former.

The word christian means Christ-like. Is the crack house residing, herione shooting, alcoholic, meth smoking, and living the gay life Christ-like? Oh no!!

Why ask you because you are the one who says they can't be Christians if they walk in the flesh. Yet I have given you three real life examples and by what you say they all would in the opinion of most who hold the view of no believer can live in caranality be judged not saved.

Yet each if they never fall would be judged by those same folks as believers because their works bare it out. But that as Christ said is not always true. After all the Pharisee's of Jesus's time were honored and respected and until Jesus began to rebuke them and show theior way false thought to be headed straight for heaven. While the dregs of society, the tax collectors, the women of the night, and possibly even the fishermen were considered lost. Yet Jesus gave us this:

Luke 18:
10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Publican wasn't allowed to enter the temple area where the "great pious people" were. Yet he stood afar off and was saved without entering the temple. For those who say a christian can't live carnally they seem to be saying unless every believer is holy like they think they should be and only commits a little sin, and prays as they do lord forgive us our sins then they have to be unsaved. Confession of sins is not saying Lord forgive us our sins that isn't confession of them, confession of them is naming them to God. Name the ones which are known sins and God will forgive of those which many don't realize are sins. We commit many sins we don't even realize are sins and practice every single day. Yet until we name the sin we knowing commit those unrigtousnesses aren't forgiven and that believer is walking under the influence of sin, which is in the flesh and carnal. Paul in Romans 7 makes it clear, Paul called the whole church at Corinth, carnal, but those who want to limit God's salvation will never admit that is what He is saying. God knows the heart and God knows those who are and who are not truly saved. He knows our every action and He even knows who will and who will not be saved, because He has foreknown them before the earth was ever created. God has always had people who were believers fall and follow sin Samson is an example, Lot vexed his rigjhteous soul daily living in Sodom. Yet we have them called as saved and believers. Example upon example, Jonah would be another, preaches the revival at Ninavah and gets angry at God for not destroying them instead of rejoicing that God saved them.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Look 'rev'mwc, I am done. I quit trying to chase your tail. If you believe christians can live worldly, you have every right to believe that. If I was not worried about lost people possibly reading posts on here, I would not say a word. Churches are infested with carnality because of this wicked doctrine. I give the opposing view to let the reader decide. Adieu.

 

[DHK]

Why ask me? I am not God. How is the chastening of the Lord obvious? Are you with them night and day? I am not being snarky, but too many absolutes here you are expressing when none really know. People have the gall to know God has a sinner under conviction, where that is a guess, and not absolute. Let me explain. My mom and dad would go to church off and on for years. One time they went when one of my sisters was in Saudi Arabia during Desert Swarm. She was in a field hospital in Rihad, right in the midst of it. One of the preachers was preaching that day and at the end of his sermon, he mentioned having someone(I am thinking son) over there. Well, mom lost it and started bawling. Now, some would jump at that and miscontrue her grief as conviction when it was her worrying about her daughter. So, we can not know when someone is under true conviction, though they popishly declare them under conviction.

Now to your scenario. Grace is not a one time 'shot/innoculation' one gets. Nay, but rather, it is a life sustaining grace one is given. Were are saved and kept by grace. If one falls into sin and shows no signs of repentance,

Let's stop your sentence there, in the middle, and continue it in this way:

...and then has a heart-attack so that he has no chance to repent, is he saved according to the Calvinist?

IMO, I leave it up to God. By observation the Calvinist says he was not a saved person. That is the problem by judging a person by "works." We don't know the heart.

 

[Iconoclast]

"DHK,

Let's go through your post and see what you said word for word

. (#211)
okay...if you want to...we can do this-

DHK claims this....

You start off with a malicious attack:

...Post 211...is a response to your post 210....so is it really "starting off"...or responding to the nature of your post?

You said this;

You are mixing up the context of disciplining a member who is in sin,
That is not established in this passage at all

with scripture speaking of an entirely different topic.

not so...in fact it is you who go to John 4 completely unrelated to this situation.

No wonder you are so confused. Keep things in context.

As I suspected...it is you who says I am..."so "...and taking things out of context.
Now I am to believe that this is not an attack, or in anyway malicious???

So I answer you this way;
This is one of your worst posts yet...this is really bad.....you should delete this before anyone see's it. I will not tell them you posted this Someone is BADLY CONFUSED.....and I know who it is

So when I say...someone is badly confused....and you use the same word...saying I am so confused....it is malicious for me to say what you already said????
I see how you think that works!

Uncalled for. It doesn't address any of the points made in the previous post.

--It is easy to misuse scripture as you have done

I responded to what you offered.....if you do not like it, then stop offering your attacks, snide remarks, and suggesting we follow heretics, and cults

 

[DHK]

You said this;

I said:
The Bible teaches that we get to heaven by his grace. It is not by works,

And then I said:
neither are we kept out by certain deeds or misdeeds.

You replied:

Those who do not enter heaven are denied based on their works...or lack of works done in the body....if you knew the scriptures you would not post such a foolish and contra biblical thought.....that is why I am forced to oppose you so often....

2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

You then quoted the rest of Romans 2:2-11, and followed up with 25:51-45.

Icon, You have presented a clear presentation of salvation by works!
You could have just admitted that I was right when I said we don't get into heaven by our works.

 

[revmwc]

Look 'rev'mwc, I am done. I quit trying to chase your tail. If you believe christians can live worldly, you have every right to believe that. If I was not worried about lost people possibly reading posts on here, I would not say a word. Churches are infested with carnality because of this wicked doctrine. I give the opposing view to let the reader decide. Adieu.

It just too bad your view of of this as you call wicked doctrine was taught by Calvin, Henry and John Gill and they attributed it to the apostle Paul.

 

[revmwc]

Why ask me? I am not God. How is the chastening of the Lord obvious? Are you with them night and day? I am not being snarky, but too many absolutes here you are expressing when none really know. People have the gall to know God has a sinner under conviction, where that is a guess, and not absolute. Let me explain. My mom and dad would go to church off and on for years. One time they went when one of my sisters was in Saudi Arabia during Desert Swarm. She was in a field hospital in Rihad, right in the midst of it. One of the preachers was preaching that day and at the end of his sermon, he mentioned having someone(I am thinking son) over there. Well, mom lost it and started bawling. Now, some would jump at that and miscontrue her grief as conviction when it was her worrying about her daughter. So, we can not know when someone is under true conviction, though they popishly declare them under conviction.

Now to your scenario. Grace is not a one time 'shot/innoculation' one gets. Nay, but rather, it is a life sustaining grace one is given. Were are saved and kept by grace. If one falls into sin and shows no signs of repentance, you best be wary of them. When we sin, in comes the Spirit of God to chasten us. We repent and move on. Look, christians sin. A picture of our life took at one moment in our life would cause us to be put to shame. But is that picture indictive of our life en toto? No. If a person is saved as a gay and they go back to that lifestyle and shows no repentance, are they lost, I mean flat out lost bound for hell, or a carnal christian? The drug addict that is saved and then resorts to their previous lifestyle of smoking crack, shooting up herione, smoking meth, drinking themself into stupors, are they lost or carnal christians? It is the latter and not former.

The word christian means Christ-like. Is the crack house residing, herione shooting, alcoholic, meth smoking, and living the gay life Christ-like? Oh no!!

When I see someone crying during the invitation I know they have a heavy heart about something. Probably something they heard in the message has affected something happening in their life. But I have also had people tell me something they heard me say in a message and it was not in my notes and I never said what they heard, so where does that come from if not the Holy Spirit.