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Featured What constututes a marriage?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, Oct 17, 2015.

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  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Which kind of makes viewing this a Christian marriage a little difficult.


    God bless.
     
    #21 Darrell C, Oct 19, 2015
  2. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Here is an example of just what you are asking: Genesis 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

    so are they married or was it fornication. He didn't declare her his wife before any man. The servant went and brought her after making the arrangements but there was not preacher who performed the wedding, no license issued. No wedding took place he took her into his mother's tent and she became his wife how?

    Was it by paying for her? Was it by her making a decision to come to him? Was it because her brother agreed?

    Or was it because he took her into his mother's tent and she became his wife?

    Genesis 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

    They become one flesh how?

    Jesus on divorce:

    Mark 10:
    6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
    7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
    8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
    9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    How do they become one flesh?

    1 Corinthians 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

    A man who goes to a harlot has entered into a marital relationship.

    The example you use of the young couple committing the act have in God's eyes become one flesh. Any man desiring to be a pastor if held to the the strictness of only one marriage needs to be ask if he was with any woman before the woman he is with because in God's eye's he was married to the woman he committed the act with. Do we hold men that accountable or just look at a divorce? Fornication is illicit acts not making a commit or illicit when married and having an affair. It makes one flesh just by the act in and of itself. The commitment makes it a true marital relationship and the ceremony let's folks know of that commitment but the act makes them one flesh in God's eyes and constitutes a marriage.
     
    #22 revmwc, Oct 19, 2015
  3. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Darrell,

    The OP is NOT the same scenario as YOU posted.

    Teenagers are not "elderly couple."

    YOU changed the OP, by including teens, and then when I respond your off topic post, now want to point back to the OP? !
     
    #23 agedman, Oct 19, 2015
  4. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the original post mentions nothing of age.
     
    #24 matt wade, Oct 19, 2015
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  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    So you believe that the Word of God would endorse teenagers in having sex and then consider it marriage?

    Even if it violates other Christian principles? It was mentioned that the elderly people you are speaking about would actually be stealing. So if their actions violate their responsibility to God to render unto Caesar that which is his, and to be in submission to governing authorities, then we should still see it as a Christian Marriage?

    And while on a spiritual level fornication is equated with marriage, that doesn't change the fact that it is still a harlot in view:

    1 Corinthians 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

    Is that God's will for us...that we be joined to a harlot?

    Now I return to my original question...

    Two teenagers walk into your office and say "We went into one of our mother's rooms and now we believe we are married, but our folks have a problem with it."

    What do you say to them?

    Just answer the question.

    You seem to be advocating allowing the elderly to be "married" in the eyes of God apart from a ceremony so they can defraud the government.

    What seems to be more important to these folks? Obeying God?

    Or money?


    God bless.
     
    #25 Darrell C, Oct 19, 2015
  6. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Not at all.

    I contributed every week to a government run retirement program. I had no choice, I had no right to file grievance, I have no right to that money, nor how that money is spent.

    That the government doles out a small portion of that money to me as TAXABLE income, and considers it a "benefit" is not obliging me in any way to let them know what other resources I may have.

    The elderly deserve every right to make their own decisions. If they want to co-habitat as consenting adults without a marriage certificate given by some heathen government, God is not displeased. They have rendered to the government what the government demanded.

    They are not "stealing" from the government.

    They are not obliged to tell the government what goes on behind their front door.

    As far a God's standard of what constitutes a marriage, it is one man and one woman, who become one flesh in commitment to each other for the life of either. It has been that way from the beginning, far before there was any church or government established.
     
    #26 agedman, Oct 19, 2015
  7. agedman

    agedman Well-Known Member
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    Actually, the SECOND post by the author of the OP DOES, and therefore, because he was the author, it modifies the OP.

    Perhaps being somewhat new, you didn't know about this modification of the topic.

    Threads tend to wander as the contributors post, but the author of the OP can make modifications to sharpen the focus of the thread. It is often done on the BB.
     
    #27 agedman, Oct 19, 2015
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It is the same, as was already stated...


    You are trying to rationalize that which is not only irrational, but in violation of some pretty basic Christian teachings.

    Doesn't matter if we see marriages in historical events that do not clearly show a ceremony, we can determine how we, as Christians in the American culture and under American Law, who live according to Christian Culture and the Laws of God...should view this hypothetical question (at least I hope it is still hypothetical at this point).

    As a Christian and an American I take issue with that kind of interpretation, which does not strengthen the Body or America, but produces idolatrous people and those who don't abide by basic laws, whether they are God's or those of this land.

    My suggestion to this elderly couple, as well as teenagers is to...obey the laws.

    That means you don't rip off the government and then try to justify it because you think the government violates your Christian Rights. Those are imagined rights nobody has. No-one is ever going to justify God's will is that we marry harlots.

    No-one is ever going to justify illegal benefits.

    And if we say that those who have pre-marital relations are then married, then reconcile that with the laws and see if the government agrees.

    It's odd that in this we can say without question the government would likely be closer to interpretation than those advocating for such a "union."

    As in the example of statutory rape, the government is going to throw the "husband" in jail. Is it God's will for someone to take advantage of young girls? Is that the love God has in mind? The union by which two become one?

    That is certainly not the case in regards to the greatest example of marriage we see in Scripture. You know, the one that involves the Bride of Christ?

    Is there a ceremonial progression there?

    God bless.
     
    #28 Darrell C, Oct 19, 2015
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Try telling that to the government.

    You are completely ignoring the issue.

    So tell me this...you approve of teenagers engaging in intimate relations?


    God bless.
     
    #29 Darrell C, Oct 19, 2015
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The second post is not the author.

    A second post does not change the OP.

    The author can edit the OP if he chooses, but that would not change any discussion matter that proceeded from the original OP.

    There is no wandering here, as the OP is being addressed, and some valid reasons why advocating for a "marriage" that allows people to engage in activity not sanctioned by God or His Word have been given.

    And how long one has been on this forum is irrelevant. Being here for an extended time does not mean one has an authority over others, nor does it validate their errors.

    And again, your enlarging of the text is considered to be shouting at people. I would think, since you point out length of time on a forum as something notable, you would have learned this by now.


    God bless.
     
    #30 Darrell C, Oct 19, 2015
  11. matt wade

    matt wade Well-Known Member

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    LOL..I've been here 2 years and 2,000 posts more than you.
     
    #31 matt wade, Oct 19, 2015
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  12. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I answered you on the teens with this:

    Here is an example of just what you are asking while they were not teens how di they become husband and wife?

    Genesis 24:67 And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.

    so are they married or was it fornication. He didn't declare her his wife before any man. The servant went and brought her after making the arrangements but there was not preacher who performed the wedding, no license issued. No wedding took place he took her into his mother's tent and she became his wife how?

    Was it by paying for her? Was it by her making a decision to come to him? Was it because her brother agreed?

    Or was it because he took her into his mother's tent and she became his wife?

    She became his wife by going into his mother's tent and consumating the marriage. The teens and for that matter anyone who commits the act become on flesh in God's eye's according to scripture.

    The husband of one wife is used to qualify and disqualify men who ant to be a pastors or deacon by many. But what if he was with someone prior to having a marriage ceremony? He became one flesh with that person according to scripture and by those who disqualify because of a divorce they avoid this subject altogether. But God says the act makes one flesh, whether young or old they become one flesh and that means husband and wife. No ceremony, no license the act makes a marriage.

    A far defrauding the government I never said that. I said he paid in while she stayed home and took care of the home. It seems you believe she isn't entitled as the widow once she gets remarried to anything from the first marriage. In which her husband for many years paid into the system for both of them. One I know whose husband was a minister would lose the pension he had set up through the denomination if she were to marry. The other's husband was a government employee and she married a second time and lost the retirement money, then her second husband died and she was able to get the first husbands retirement again and upon the third marriage was abel to keep it because of her age at the time.

    Where it does come into play is with social security and the lose of income. But keep in mind somebody paid into the Social Security Insurance system in that marriage. It was paid in from their income yet you advocate they are stealing money or defrauding the system to have their own money returned to them. Sounds like you believe if the husband only pays income tax then only he deserves the money from a tax return.
     
    #32 revmwc, Oct 19, 2015
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We know how Isaac's marriage was arranged:

    Genesis 24

    King James Version (KJV)

    24 And Abraham was old, and well stricken in age: and the Lord had blessed Abraham in all things.

    2 And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:

    3 And I will make thee swear by the Lord, the God of heaven, and the God of the earth, that thou shalt not take a wife unto my son of the daughters of the Canaanites, among whom I dwell:

    4 But thou shalt go unto my country, and to my kindred, and take a wife unto my son Isaac.

    5 And the servant said unto him, Peradventure the woman will not be willing to follow me unto this land: must I needs bring thy son again unto the land from whence thou camest?

    6 And Abraham said unto him, Beware thou that thou bring not my son thither again.


    And this is based on God's Promise.

    Don't you wish our culture was like that?

    We know how it came about:


    Genesis 24:10-14

    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And the servant took ten camels of the camels of his master, and departed; for all the goods of his master were in his hand: and he arose, and went to Mesopotamia, unto the city of Nahor.

    11 And he made his camels to kneel down without the city by a well of water at the time of the evening, even the time that women go out to draw water.

    12 And he said O Lord God of my master Abraham, I pray thee, send me good speed this day, and shew kindness unto my master Abraham.

    13 Behold, I stand here by the well of water; and the daughters of the men of the city come out to draw water:

    14 And let it come to pass, that the damsel to whom I shall say, Let down thy pitcher, I pray thee, that I may drink; and she shall say, Drink, and I will give thy camels drink also: let the same be she that thou hast appointed for thy servant Isaac; and thereby shall I know that thou hast shewed kindness unto my master.


    Again, we see that trusting God played a significant role in Isaac's marriage.

    Let's see the dowry:


    22 And it came to pass, as the camels had done drinking, that the man took a golden earring of half a shekel weight, and two bracelets for her hands of ten shekels weight of gold;

    23 And said, Whose daughter art thou? tell me, I pray thee: is there room in thy father's house for us to lodge in?

    24 And she said unto him, I am the daughter of Bethuel the son of Milcah, which she bare unto Nahor.

    25 She said moreover unto him, We have both straw and provender enough, and room to lodge in.

    26 And the man bowed down his head, and worshipped the Lord.

    27 And he said, Blessed be the Lord God of my master Abraham, who hath not left destitute my master of his mercy and his truth: I being in the way, the Lord led me to the house of my master's brethren.


    Now let's see the marriage agreed upon:


    50 Then Laban and Bethuel answered and said, The thing proceedeth from the Lord: we cannot speak unto thee bad or good.

    51 Behold, Rebekah is before thee, take her, and go, and let her be thy master's son's wife, as the Lord hath spoken.


    Seems like to me the People of God had not discrepancies in their faith, culture, and the will of God for their lives.

    Don't you wish our culture was the same?

    You turn their marriage into a shallow intimate relationship begun in fornication.

    Now, how are you going to counsel those teens that walk into your office and tell you they have gone "into their mother's tent?"


    God bless.
     
    #33 Darrell C, Oct 19, 2015
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I've actually been a member almost two years longer than he myself, so I guess that means what I say has to be accepted according to this standard? lol

    Glad he brought it up!

    (just kidding, lol)


    God bless.
     
    #34 Darrell C, Oct 19, 2015
  15. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Actually, as soon as a wedding vow is made.
     
    #35 Aaron, Oct 19, 2015
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Before, actually.

    We see that in Joseph and Mary:


    Matthew 1:18-20

    King James Version (KJV)

    18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.

    19 Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.

    20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.


    God bless.
     
    #36 Darrell C, Oct 19, 2015
  17. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    I don't place it in fornication. Neither does God nor Paul, but Paul says the very act makes two people one flesh, even the act of fornication. Define fornication. Here is a definition I found: "Fornication is a more general term usually referring to any kind of sexual misconduct or sexual impurity outside of the bounds of marriage."

    Outside the bounds of marriage, therefore we must define the bounds of marriage.

    Marriage is therefore an agreement between two parties to form a family bond or a bond as two coming together to make one. That is the commitment like Mary and Joseph had committed and by the Law of Israel would have had to divorce from their agreement. Here is where many lose sight of what marriage is, yes the act makes them one in God's eyes. But that bond is never really broken. Divorce was never in God's plan. Yet He allowed Moses to write up a law of divorcement, that is man made. The act in and of itself makes a union of two to one flesh. Man's law's regulate the institution of marriage. But what happens when man's laws make it difficult for two to become one. Such as the rules behind retirement money's in many cases can they follow God's law and the two become one without it being considered fornication or as many say living in sin?
    Is it sin if they agree to live as husband and wife?
    What if they go before a minister and just never send in the marriage license is it still a marriage?
    You see the commitment is what brings the bond the physical act consummates it and God sees it as two becoming one. Man's laws regulate it for monatary reasons.
     
    #37 revmwc, Oct 19, 2015
  18. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Hmmmm. What about the elderly couple, she a widow and he a widower, who enjoy each other's companionship, love each other, want to spend their declining years together but he is unable to consummate the physical relationship due to a serious medical condition?

    Are they still "married" in the opinion of those who believe the physical consummation is what makes the marriage valid?

    Or what about the couple who have been married for 60 years but he, due to prostate surgery, or other medical issues, is no longer capable of performing? Are they still married?

    I think marriage is a whole lot more than a mere license (which I do not consider necessary for a biblical marriage) or merely the physical consummation. I believe it is the life long commitment they make to "love, honor, and cherish until death do us part." A true marriage is not just physical. It is also emotional (to love, honor, and cherish), and spiritual (a vow taken before God and this assembled company of witnesses). :)
     
    #38 TCassidy, Oct 19, 2015
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    AMEN Brother Tom, AMEN Thumbsup
     
    #39 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 19, 2015
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  20. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    If they are together does the physical really matter to them? My point here is mostly how people look at the two and if they "live together" without a marriage ceremony they see them as living in sin. God also sees the heart of the two. But as far as a marriage in scripture the physical makes the two one flesh. Marriage as we know is more than the physical. It is also the companionship and care they have for each other.
     
    #40 revmwc, Oct 19, 2015
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