You ask this as if you know who the elect are.
What God has determined will surely stand, and there will be some who are rejected as in MT 7 and God's decree of election is not going to save them as it will be discovered they were not sheep.
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Belief, Obedience and Action
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
You ask this as if you know who the elect are.
What God has determined will surely stand, and there will be some who are rejected as in MT 7 and God's decree of election is not going to save them as it will be discovered they were not sheep.
You're straining out gnats. By type they were ALL redeemed with a strong hand from the house of bondage.
1 For I would not, brethren, have you ignorant, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 and were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 and did all eat the same spiritual food;
4 and did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them: and the rock was Christ.
5 Howbeit with most of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us make trial of the Lord, as some of them made trial, and perished by the serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them murmured, and perished by the destroyer.
11 Now these things happened unto them by way of example; and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages are come. 1 Cor 10
But of course you 'hell fire damnation' types take "with most of them God was not well pleased" to mean God sent most of them to hell, right?
You people frivolously insert eternal damnation into passages where it suits your hell fire damnation theology.
No, I ask this to emphasize the point that it is pointless and counterproductive for you hell fire damnation types to continually threaten the elect with hell fire damnation. It's a stark contradiction.
What I think is that you do not seen to get is the warnings are also a MEANS God uses to secure the perseverance of the elect.
That is why we are not on the same page here.
I believe God uses means and we are fully responsible to obey all teaching and warnings....
Like Paul said during the shipwreck....there will be no loss of life among you......but only of the ship.
...to frighten us into being holy so that we can make it to heaven? That what you're saying here? Fear of eternal retribution is the motivator under the new covenant? Wow, sounds a whole lot like the old covenant.
Kyred
There is a certain element where we are to fear with a reverance and you know count the cost.
you know the verses that say it's better than entering into life blind then and than having two hands two eyes and everything else to be cast into hell.
so I think it's to protect against carnal presumption on one hand
you have professors of religion who really don't seek the Lord and just presume that they're ok
We do not know who are elect so warnings and self examinations are quite proper
....and your continual thumping the heads of the elect with hell fire damnation is somehow going to change that?
You LSers have gone to seed with "warnings and self examination". No amount of "warnings and self examination" is going to change a goat into a sheep, neither do they prevent a sheep from perishing eternally because His sheep are never in danger of perishing eternally, only in this temporal realm will they perish because of their disobedience.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Brother you are saying something no one here is even implying.
Not one person is preaching eternal damnation on the elect of God no matter how badly you need this to be true.
I don't believe each and every one of these were born from above. It appears you believe this. My belief is not that but is like the kingdom of God referenced in Matthew 13, some are wheat, some tares, all are subjects of the kingdom, but not all are Israel.
This is the heart of our disagreement I believe God uses the means in the life of the elect .
No one is saying anything about goats being turned into sheep.
The way you frame it out it sounds like you have it all on paper but not in real life.
Did they have to march around the walls of Jericho.. then shout...or just stand there
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Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
None of us so-called 'you people' as you refer believe that this will turn a sheep into a goat. Can you show that we believe this, or could it be that you are just using a straw man? Please provide proof that one of us adheres to this, there must be a vast amount of evidence as you make this charge relentlessly.
Now, I don't believe goats become sheep, will this help you stop accusing at least me of the false charge?
No one believes it will prevent a sheep from this, it is though the behavior of sheep 'Is it I?' and examination of spiritual tests are part of this, 1 John, and of testing of God working in us, or not, Php. 1:9, 2:13, and there is no greater joy in knowing God works in His elect.
"The means" being fear of eternal retribution.
I have great fear of temporal retribution from God for my sins, but no fear of eternal retribution because I believe in Christ's atonement, and, there's nothing I could do about that anyhow.
If when I die I find myself burning in hell I will have gotten just what I deserve. If when I die I find myself in glory with my Savior, it will be by the grace of God and absolutely nothing else.
Kyred
How do you understand the many verses to STRIVE to enter in, to give DILIGENCE to make your calling and election sure?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Of course it is. Many sheep have recurring doubt at times concerning their eternal salvation. The means isn't in search of ability of gaining, but of evidence. There is One who may cause this searching of self, and that in itself may be evidence of true conversion, Psalm 139:23.
Do you examine your walk, ever doubt your eternal salvation? 'Be merciful to me a sinner'?
So there is doubt or the above is pretense.
This we believe.
1 Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained a like precious faith with us in the righteousness of our God and the Saviour Jesus Christ:
2 Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord;
3 seeing that his divine power hath granted unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that called us by his own glory and virtue;
4 whereby he hath granted unto us his precious and exceeding great promises; that through these ye may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in that world by lust.
5 Yea, and for this very cause adding on your part all diligence, in your faith supply virtue; and in your virtue knowledge;
6 and in your knowledge self-control; and in your self-control patience; and in your patience godliness;
7 and in your godliness brotherly kindness; and in your brotherly kindness love.
8 For if these things are yours and abound, they make you to be not idle nor unfruitful unto the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 For he that lacketh these things is blind, seeing only what is near, having forgotten the cleansing from his old sins.
10 Wherefore, brethren, give the more diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never stumble:
11 for thus shall be richly supplied unto you the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. 2 Pet 1
"To them gave He power to become sons of God". Each of His children who 'receive Him' are granted this promise to become partakers of the divine nature, to have life and to have it abundantly, and to be richly supplied with the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, IF they do these things outlined above. The more they neglect these things the less of this abundant life they will experience. I happen to believe that the majority of His children have never known, or know very little of the 'joy unspeakable', or, 'the peace that passeth understanding' that is theirs for the taking in this temporal realm. I believe the type holds true, with most of them God is not well pleased and they spend their lives wandering in the wilderness, yet because of Christ's atonement and imputation of His righteousness there is no eternal condemnation upon them. To experience the joy and peace and righteousness which is the kingdom of God is the grandest of privileges that one could ever have in this life. And only His redeemed are able to attain it. IMO, very few actually know it.
Do you actually think I'm going to open myself up to your fruit inspection?
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
Open yourself up? You mean all along the way you act on here isn't actually your fruit, it's someone elses?
[snipped by admin]
Ignorantclast has now said you're funny, informative, and has agreed.
Next you'll be a winner.
Lol
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Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Heb 8:10-12 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Rom 5:10
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19
Who are the sheep and the goats and what do they, have to do? What do the elect have to do?
Eph 1:3 Blessed, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:9,10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him: (?self?)
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10,11
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Just what are the works of the devil?
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10 The last enemy shall be destroyed, death. 1 Cor 15:26 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14,15
Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this, the whole of man.
Acts 13:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18
BTW How good am I at that next to last verse? Not very good and yes God have mercy on me a sinner.
Heb 8:10-12 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Rom 5:10
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2 Cor 5:19
Who are the sheep and the goats and what do they, have to do? What do the elect have to do?
Eph 1:3 Blessed, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 1:9,10 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; in him: (?self?)
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. Phil 2:10,11
Gen 15:5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Just what are the works of the devil?
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. Rev 20:10 The last enemy shall be destroyed, death. 1 Cor 15:26 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Rev 20:14,15
Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this, the whole of man.
Acts 13:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. Acts 15:18
BTW How good am I at that next to last verse? Not very good and yes God have mercy on me a sinner.
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