It appears from the above that you do not know the difference between the noun 'prophecy' and the verb 'prophesy,' so I don't think I'm going to take grammar lessons off you, thanks all the same.
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Would the Continuation of the Gift ofProphecy Challenge Sola Scriptura?
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I didn't use a verb in my post, and you would've said "...off of you." If you actually knew grammar.
Thanks for playing, you've now revealed what I was suspecting...
Earnestly Contend
Oh come on! It is obvious you made an error when you posted
"To prophecies" makes no sense either grammatically or syntactically.
Admit it! You meant to say "to prophesy."
No, I meant "to prophecies", which is the phrasing in the passage we are discussing.
My further reiteration would've clued you in, had you cared to read...
Since the "=" may have caused confusion, I will rewrite the sentence here:
"Gift of prophecy" is not equal to "prophecies".
Sorry for that.
Earnestly Contend
Now you are just lying to try to cover your faux pas. What you claim now is NOT what you posted.
Wow.
I overestimated your intelligence as well.
In case anyone with the capacity to reason is looking on, we were discussing cessation.
The passage in question is 1Cor. 13:8
Where it says:
1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
So I was comparing the word "prophecies" here, to the phrase :"gift of prophecy".
1Cor 13:8 is not claiming that the gift of prophecy is no longer available, but rather that individual prophecies do fail.
I then offered examples.
Now I'm being called a liar, as if I don't know what I meant.
No wonder the daughters return to the Whore in the End.
Earnestly Contend
Enough said.
OK, let's try to pick up your argument.
However, what do we mean by the gift of prophecy? Surely we mean a God-given ability to make known things that could not be known naturally? What is the gift of 'tongues'? Surely it is a God-given ability to speak a word of Prophecy in a language that one hasn't learned (Acts 2:4-12)? What is the gift of knowledge? Surely it is the God-given knowledge of something that could not be known naturally?
Now let's look at 1 Cor. 13:8. 'Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will fail [Gk. katargethesontai, meaning to be abolished or rendered useless]; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.'
Two points: firstly, Chapters 12 and 14 are dealing with spiritual gifts, so it follows rather obviously that although Paul does not actually use the word 'Gift' here, that is what he's talking about. Secondly, if there are no more prophecies, 'tongues' and words of knowledge, can it really be said that the gifts are still current? I think not.
With reference to Rom. 11:29, again you are wrenching the verse out of its context. It rather obviously is referring to the gift of salvation.
It has been pointed out to you that 'Knowledge' actually is a spiritual gift, so your argument falls to the ground at once.
However, what do we mean by the gift of prophecy? Surely we mean a God-given ability to make known things that could not be known naturally? What is the gift of 'tongues'? Surely it is a God-given ability to speak a word of Prophecy in a language that one hasn't learned (Acts 2:4-12)? What is the gift of knowledge? Surely it is the God-given knowledge of something that could not be known naturally?
Now let's look at 1 Cor. 13:8. 'Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will fail [Gk. katargethesontai, meaning to be abolished or rendered useless]; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away.'
Two points: firstly, Chapters 12 and 14 are dealing with spiritual gifts, so it follows rather obviously that although Paul does not actually use the word 'Gift' here, that is what he's talking about. Secondly, if there are no more prophecies, 'tongues' and words of knowledge, can it really be said that the gifts are still current? I think not.
With reference to Rom. 11:29, again you are wrenching the verse out of its context. It rather obviously is referring to the gift of salvation.
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I really don't think I would.
Gifts (plural) of God are without repentance.. Then, Chapter 12 goes into these gifts.
You need to study some more, you aren't up to this.
Earnestly Contend
Because you don't know proper grammar... which is why you can't understand the Bible.
Earnestly Contend
The key to understanding when the gifts will cease must be when Paul said they will cease. Not who some on the BB contend because of some thinking they have determined correct.
Paul said, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."
Now the question is, what is "the perfect." It isn't the church, for the Lord said that the wheat has tares growing with it. It isn't the Scriptures, or the KJVO folks would be valid in their arguments.
So, the only "perfect" is when Christ returns. In HIS presence there is no need of prophets or prophecy, no need of tongues or language learning, no need of the Scriptures for He is the Word, ...
Has Christ returned?
Therefore, the gifts of the Spirit are still present. The mistake some make is the neglecting of "IN PART" when they look at the gifts. No one is going to present the complete prophecy, nor the complete knowledge. That doesn't make what is presented as either wrong, evil, or even in some way able to be discredited. Even the Scriptures have multiple prophets, multiple accounts, multiple statements from different sources in which we take in whole to derive principles for living. One does not rely upon a single source or verse, but a collection of the whole that would support or validate the verse.
Now, somewhere on the thread, the mention of God's provision for the people ended when they entered the promised land.
This is very good. For in much ways the believer is provided while we journey as pilgrims through this living, and there awaits a far greater abundance for us in the final estate.
So, although that poster did attempt to dispute, the post was actually supporting.
Perhaps someone can point to something more "perfect" or as "perfect" as Christ, in which would allow for Paul's statement to present the gifts as concluded.
But until the Lord returns, the gifts remain. They are gifts to the assembly, and should not be discouraged nor held as evil.
Paul said, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away."
Now the question is, what is "the perfect." It isn't the church, for the Lord said that the wheat has tares growing with it. It isn't the Scriptures, or the KJVO folks would be valid in their arguments.
So, the only "perfect" is when Christ returns. In HIS presence there is no need of prophets or prophecy, no need of tongues or language learning, no need of the Scriptures for He is the Word, ...
Has Christ returned?
Therefore, the gifts of the Spirit are still present. The mistake some make is the neglecting of "IN PART" when they look at the gifts. No one is going to present the complete prophecy, nor the complete knowledge. That doesn't make what is presented as either wrong, evil, or even in some way able to be discredited. Even the Scriptures have multiple prophets, multiple accounts, multiple statements from different sources in which we take in whole to derive principles for living. One does not rely upon a single source or verse, but a collection of the whole that would support or validate the verse.
Now, somewhere on the thread, the mention of God's provision for the people ended when they entered the promised land.
This is very good. For in much ways the believer is provided while we journey as pilgrims through this living, and there awaits a far greater abundance for us in the final estate.
So, although that poster did attempt to dispute, the post was actually supporting.
Perhaps someone can point to something more "perfect" or as "perfect" as Christ, in which would allow for Paul's statement to present the gifts as concluded.
But until the Lord returns, the gifts remain. They are gifts to the assembly, and should not be discouraged nor held as evil.
Sorry, but God's inspired word in the language in which He inspired it, Greek, says you are wrong.
The word translated "perfect" (τελειον) is neuter. Unless you think Christ is neuter this can't possibly refer to Him. Christ (Χριστοσ) is masculine.
Also τελειον does not mean "perfect" in the sense of absolute perfection, it means "complete, mature, nothing lacking necessary to the whole."
The WEB bible does an excellent job of translating verse 10. "But when that which is complete has come, then that which is partial will be done away with.
The words "part" and "perfect" (or complete and partial in the WEB) - according to the rules of Greek grammar have to refer to the same thing.
What exactly is a "partial Christ?" And how will "part" of Christ be done away with?
Paul is saying is that there will be a time when these sign gifts will cease because something better (the “perfect”) will replace them. When the complete (something) comes the partial form of that same (something) will vanish.
With the completion of the New Testament, the perfect law of liberty (see James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.), there was no longer any need for the temporary gifts, or additional revelations. God's written word is complete, finished, perfect - mature, complete, lacking nothing necessary to the whole.
Paul then makes it clear what he means in verse 13 "But now (when Paul was penning 1 Corinthians 13) faith, hope, and love remain—these three. The greatest of these is love."
Paul makes it clear. At the time he wrote 1 Corinthians there remained only three, faith, hope, and love. The other three gifts, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge were no longer being given.
Paul did not say "And now faith, hope, love, tongues, prophecy, and knowledge remain - these six."
Its not our opinion, folks. Its the bible. Believe it. Trust it. Examine it. It can take close examination. Your experience should be slave to the bible, not the other way around.
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I have time but for a short response.
You would suggest that the Scriptures is what is complete in the sense of perfect. Yet there is a portion of the BB that actually would contend over what the Scriptures are the Scriptures and what translations are accurate.
But, more to the point of my post. Did I say that the "perfect was Christ" or did I say that when He returned there was no longer any need for the Spiritual Gifts?
I said, "The only "perfect" is when Christ returns. In HIS presence there is no need of prophets or prophecy, no need of tongues or language learning, no need of the Scriptures for He is the Word, ..."
When was or will be the only "perfect" delivered to this world? In what form and during what time?
Cassidy, I honestly thought you knew these things.
Yep, I have heard "Its the bible," and figured that is what you would contend.
But, I don't. Rather, I expect the "perfect" will never be argued over, contended for what is right interpretation or have any who will deny the perfection.
You will prefer the Bible, and I look for something better.
Not something in opposition, not something that replaces the Scripture, but just as Paul I look for the very Word of God who brings that which is perfect. At that time there will be no need for "spiritual gifts" other than "faith, hope, love" just as Paul said.
Paul said, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
So, I stand by what I stated, "The only "perfect" is when Christ returns." I did not say Christ was the perfect, you need to go back and reread what I stated.
It is the context of the verses that I quoted that Paul states the very last part of chapter 13. That you want to place the end verses as overriding the previous statement of Paul, is so typical of those what would deny that work of the Holy Spirit to the assembly is undiminished until the return of Christ.
In holding to this, I in no way diminish the authority, nor the examination of Scriptures. The Bible is completely trustworthy, and as we have the most accurate translations available are responsible as no previous group to hold precious to the Word.
But, Cassidy, I look for the perfect that Christ will bring. I hold to the statement of Paul that when "we shall see face to face," then "I will know fully. "
That you think you have it already isn't obligating me to agree.
You would suggest that the Scriptures is what is complete in the sense of perfect. Yet there is a portion of the BB that actually would contend over what the Scriptures are the Scriptures and what translations are accurate.
But, more to the point of my post. Did I say that the "perfect was Christ" or did I say that when He returned there was no longer any need for the Spiritual Gifts?
I said, "The only "perfect" is when Christ returns. In HIS presence there is no need of prophets or prophecy, no need of tongues or language learning, no need of the Scriptures for He is the Word, ..."
When was or will be the only "perfect" delivered to this world? In what form and during what time?
Cassidy, I honestly thought you knew these things.
Yep, I have heard "Its the bible," and figured that is what you would contend.
But, I don't. Rather, I expect the "perfect" will never be argued over, contended for what is right interpretation or have any who will deny the perfection.
You will prefer the Bible, and I look for something better.
Not something in opposition, not something that replaces the Scripture, but just as Paul I look for the very Word of God who brings that which is perfect. At that time there will be no need for "spiritual gifts" other than "faith, hope, love" just as Paul said.
Paul said, "For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
So, I stand by what I stated, "The only "perfect" is when Christ returns." I did not say Christ was the perfect, you need to go back and reread what I stated.
It is the context of the verses that I quoted that Paul states the very last part of chapter 13. That you want to place the end verses as overriding the previous statement of Paul, is so typical of those what would deny that work of the Holy Spirit to the assembly is undiminished until the return of Christ.
In holding to this, I in no way diminish the authority, nor the examination of Scriptures. The Bible is completely trustworthy, and as we have the most accurate translations available are responsible as no previous group to hold precious to the Word.
But, Cassidy, I look for the perfect that Christ will bring. I hold to the statement of Paul that when "we shall see face to face," then "I will know fully. "
That you think you have it already isn't obligating me to agree.
So little time and so much ignorance.
I am not responsible for the ignorance or heresy of those who would contend over translations any more than I am responsible for your ignorance of the clear meaning of verse 10.
Rather you pick something entirely out of context. Paul is not talking about our future abode, nor the second coming, but is talking about the spiritual gifts, all of which were revelatory in nature. The gift of tongues revealed the wonderful works of God on the day of Pentecost. The gift of prophecy reveals that which is yet to come. And the gift of knowledge imparts that which was never learned for the edification of God's people.
No, the bible is finished. Nothing more to be added. In fact those who would add to the word of God are warned of terrible consequences in the book of the Revelation.
And there it is. The big lie. When you can't deal with the bible you make false accusations against other believers.
My bible is already complete. Nothing needs to be added. He did it right the first time. No need of a "do over."
I believe too that when we "look into the perfect law of liberty" (the bible) we will see ourselves as we really are. Not as we think we are, nor as others think we are, but as God sees us. James 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.