Featured Not all Calvinists are the same

Accurate Church History does not support Landmarkism. Baptists started out in the early 17th century. The movement stemmed from Puritanism --Separatists--Baptists. It was a process. Have you ever heard of the J-L-J Church? It was named after its first three pastors --Jacob,Lathrop and Jessy. It started out as a Separatist congregation. Folks had to meet in secret from William Laud. It was started in 1616. It had two friendly splits in 1633 and 1638. The people who left wanted to go further with what they believed the Bible taught regarding baptism. It wasn't until 1644 that they got a more secure footing and released a Confession of Faith (revised in 1644 --which was revised in the 1670s and ultimately the 1689 was published). It's a fascinating history. James Renihan and Michael Haykin are two men you should stary listening to. They are very informative. But the list of historians and scholars who support the English Sep. View is quite long.

The Roman Catholic Church was not the only Communion during the Dark Ages. I do believe that the Lord has always had a people throughout the centuries. A remnant --but they were not Baptist as you would want to believe. God-honoring assemblies are not only in the Baptistic fold.

I'll quote a snip from Thomas Patient in the year 1654 :
"That this Solemn Ordinance for many hundred years, hath been neither preached, nor practiced..."

Patient knew how biblically based the ordinance of Baptism was. Yet as the Feast of Tabernacles was lost for a long time so also true Baptism was revived after hundreds of years.

 

Hi Brother Rippon,

First, let me clarify, I may have not made it clear from my post, I do believe Baptists have always existed, but I do not hold to what often correlates to this known as "successionism". what was the faith which was once delivered to the saints? We are not now to ask: Are our ministers by succession of ordination, through the dark ages of papal abominations – traceable to the apostles? But rather let it be asked: Are they such men as the Holy Ghost commanded the church to separate to the work whereunto He had called them and what was the faith that was once delivered to all the saints?

I too concur with you that the Lord has always had a remnant throughout all ages, even in the time of the Roman Catholic church that was separate from the Catholics. While they may not have all been blessed to know the five points of the doctrines of grace or explicitly carried "Baptist" in their name, make no mistake, they were Baptists and do not have their origin out of Rome. "Among the persecuted people of God have been the Novatians, Donatists, Cathari, Paterines, Paulicians, Petrobrusians, Henericans, Arnoldists, Albigenses, Waldenses, Lollards, Mennonites and baptists, nearly all of whom were occasionally designated Anabaptist or re-baptizers by their enemies, because they disregarded infant or unregenerate baptism, and baptize all adults, whether previously baptized or not, who, upon a credible profession of faith, applied to them for the membership in their churches-thus insisting upon a spiritual or regenerated church membership, the First and most important mark of the apostolic church. " (Source http://pbministries.org/History/S. Hassell/church_of_god_09.htm )

You seem to enjoy reading as you have a rich knowledge of historical individuals in the church along with history that can be gleaned from your posts. If you ever have the time and desire I suggest reading the following regarding the Waldenses titled, "WERE THE WALDENSES BAPTISTS OR PEDO-BAPTISTS?". It is here http://www.reformedreader.org/history/borpb.htm

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

I do not deny that God has people outside of Baptist churches, but maintain only Baptist churches are of they type of true apostolic churches. Sylvester Hassel laid out marks of an apostolic church based upon the scriptural prototype and I agree with them and only some, but not all Baptist churches to my knowledge meet them. They are-

1. A regenerate church membership—History of the unscriptural Catholic practice of infant baptism, the principle of which involves the horrible doctrine of the everlasting damnation of all unbaptized children who die in infancy.

2. The baptism (by which, of course, is meant the full immersion-the word “baptism” means nothing else) of believers in water, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. History of the unscriptural Roman Catholic substitute of sprinkling or pouring for baptism—Man has no right to change the perfect ordinances of God

3. The frequent observance, by baptized and orderly-walking believers, of the Lord’s Supper; the bread representing the broken body, and the wine the shed blood of their precious Redeemer

4. The maintenance of strict discipline—Ananias and Sapphire—The Corinthian offender excluded, and after repentance restored by the church—The brethren took part with the Apostles and Elders in the conference at Jerusalem—Hymeneus and Alexander excluded for denying the doctrine of the resurrection

5. The independent or congregational polity or government of each local church, subject only to the Headship of Christ—Kakal and ecclesia—The local church the highest and last ecclesiastical authority on earth, according to the teaching of Christ

6 The complete separation of Church an State—Emancipation from the unscriptural traditions and commandments of men—The typical Jewish Church-State power superseded by the unworldly, spiritual church of the New Testament—The alliance of “Church” and State, since the coming of Christ, always productive of corruption and persecution—Fifty millions of human beings murdered by Papal Rome

7. The general poverty, illiteracy, obscurity, and afflicted and persecuted condition of the members—The Old Testament Prophets, John the Baptist, Christ and His Apostles and the primitive disciples, and the people of God during the last eighteen centuries.

8. The fraternal equality of the ministry as well as of the membership—Only two classes of church officers, Bishops, or Elders, or Pastors, and Deacons

9. A humble, God-called and God-qualified ministry, mostly destitute of human training (i.e. not utilizing man invented seminaries as the prerequisite form of training)—The foolish things of the world chosen of God to confound the wise, that the glory may be His—Paul, when called to the service of Christ, conferred not with flesh and blood, and was made by God an able minister of the New Testament

10. An unsalaried ministry, helped by the voluntary contributions of their churches, but also laboring more or less for their own support; freely receiving of God, and freely giving of their spiritual things to their brethren, while the latter also freely ministered of their carnal substance to them—The true ministry are not hirelings, preaching for filthy lucre’s sake—The noble, self‑denying, Christ-like example of Paul—Salaries attract unqualified men into the ministry—Unstipulated voluntary contributions to the ministry practiced for the first three centuries.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Hi Brother Jon,

I do not deny that their was some heretical teaches in churches even in Paul's time that were nonetheless still true apostolic churches as evidenced by the church of Galatia and Corinth, however all apostolic Baptist churches did follow the following markings that are all laid out in the New Testament. I posted them in reply to brother Rippon in my previous post, but will post them again in my reply to you as it is how one can test for a "true church".

Sylvester Hassel laid out marks of an apostolic church based upon the scriptural prototype and I agree with them and only some, but not all Baptist churches to my knowledge meet them. They are-

1. A regenerate church membership—History of the unscriptural Catholic practice of infant baptism, the principle of which involves the horrible doctrine of the everlasting damnation of all unbaptized children who die in infancy.

2. The baptism (by which, of course, is meant the full immersion-the word “baptism” means nothing else) of believers in water, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost. History of the unscriptural Roman Catholic substitute of sprinkling or pouring for baptism—Man has no right to change the perfect ordinances of God

3. The frequent observance, by baptized and orderly-walking believers, of the Lord’s Supper; the bread representing the broken body, and the wine the shed blood of their precious Redeemer

4. The maintenance of strict discipline—Ananias and Sapphire—The Corinthian offender excluded, and after repentance restored by the church—The brethren took part with the Apostles and Elders in the conference at Jerusalem—Hymeneus and Alexander excluded for denying the doctrine of the resurrection

5. The independent or congregational polity or government of each local church, subject only to the Headship of Christ—Kakal and ecclesia—The local church the highest and last ecclesiastical authority on earth, according to the teaching of Christ

6 The complete separation of Church an State—Emancipation from the unscriptural traditions and commandments of men—The typical Jewish Church-State power superseded by the unworldly, spiritual church of the New Testament—The alliance of “Church” and State, since the coming of Christ, always productive of corruption and persecution—Fifty millions of human beings murdered by Papal Rome

7. The general poverty, illiteracy, obscurity, and afflicted and persecuted condition of the members—The Old Testament Prophets, John the Baptist, Christ and His Apostles and the primitive disciples, and the people of God during the last eighteen centuries.

8. The fraternal equality of the ministry as well as of the membership—Only two classes of church officers, Bishops, or Elders, or Pastors, and Deacons

9. A humble, God-called and God-qualified ministry, mostly destitute of human training (i.e. not utilizing man invented seminaries as the prerequisite form of training)—The foolish things of the world chosen of God to confound the wise, that the glory may be His—Paul, when called to the service of Christ, conferred not with flesh and blood, and was made by God an able minister of the New Testament

10. An unsalaried ministry, helped by the voluntary contributions of their churches, but also laboring more or less for their own support; freely receiving of God, and freely giving of their spiritual things to their brethren, while the latter also freely ministered of their carnal substance to them—The true ministry are not hirelings, preaching for filthy lucre’s sake—The noble, self‑denying, Christ-like example of Paul—Salaries attract unqualified men into the ministry—Unstipulated voluntary contributions to the ministry practiced for the first three centuries.

Brother Joe

 

I would say Brother Jon I agree with you that the markings Hassel listed are more practices than doctrines, but if you look at them many of them would eliminate many so called "churches" off the bat such as those not doing baptism by full body immersion (Baptists are probably one of few churches that do such), those that do not rebaptize those coming from non-Baptist orders to join, those that have many members that are not "regenerated" and have not witnessed a confession of faith, those that have mane made institutions of seminaries as the means of qualifying their elders rather than the calling of the Holy Ghost, and those that have salaried pastors or unscriptural church positions/offices.

Of course true church's will also be accompanied by an agreement on the general essentials of believing upon the gospel of Christ's cross work alone subsequent resurrection being sole basis for one's forgiveness of sins and not preach "a different Jesus" such as do the Mormons and Jehovah Witnesses. There can be differences on nonessential doctrines. I would say "nonessential" doctrinal differences are anything that is not at the heart of the gospel (i.e trusting in Christ's sacrifice and resurrection alone for justification and the he is God incarnate who became man).

 

Brother Jon,

By the various "offices" or "positions" Hassel is referring to church offices such as deacon and elder/bishop being the only two official God ordained church "offices", but many churches have made man made additional offices/positions for individuals in their church. He is not talking about governmental positions/offices.

 

Brother,

The churches at Galatia had drifted to mixing works into the gospel, but Paul did not cease to call it a church. While I agree with Hassel regarding his marks of true apostolic churches, because of churches such as Galatia having such a deviation from the true gospel into a gospel of works, yet Paul not disqualifying them as a "church", I find it hard to draw a line in the sand when a "church" is not a "true church" due solely to doctrinal deviations from the truth. I would only say if a church teaches a method other than salvation by grace alone, through the atonement alone, or teaches another Jesus it certainly is not a "church". I am sure the brethren at the church of Galatia took heed to Paul's corrective epistle to them. I suppose, but for the grace of God, it is possible for any true believer to fall back into a "works system" for a time (just like it is possible for true believers to fall back into gross sin such as David did), but if they are truly saved they will be delivered from their doctrinal error of the whoredom of justification by works and glorying in the flesh by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The New Testament's original church practices and characteristics are clear and I believe Hassel did an excellent job of outlining them along with providing ample Biblical support in so doing. http://pbministries.org/History/S. Hassell/church_of_god_09.htm.

I believe any true church will have these apostolic markings and seek to worship at only such churches who do.

 

Wow! You almost sound like a Roman Catholic there.

You seem to be saying that others, such as Presbyterians *might* have a few genuine Christians within their walls. I'm I misunderstanding you?

 

Hi Brother,

I actually would agree with the London Baptist Confession of Faith of 1644 and 1689 both of which have a lot in common with the Westminster Confession of Faith that Presbyterians PCA adhere to. We were discussing what are the characteristics of a New Testament apostolic church, not if there are believers outside of such churches. I don't know what I said that lead you to the conclusion that I was contending their "might" be a "few" genuine Christians in your particular denomination. I can only surmise you made that extrapolation on your own because you concluded that many churches today do not meet the characteristics Hassel listed. I do not believe that their might be a "few" genuine Christians within the PCA, nor did I say such on this thread. In that regards, I can only say I agree with most of their Westminster Confession of Faith, however I do not speculate on how many of them are true believers, only the Lord knows that and it is none of my business.

God bless,

Brother Joe

 

Hi Brother Jon,

Baptists are not a denomination and they did not "come about" (unless you are referring the constitution of the first Baptist church in the apostolic age). I will agree with you that the name "Baptist" in referring to such churches has not been throughout all history, nor did they refer to themselves by such a name prior to the 1500/1600s. Baptists have gone by many names, "Among the persecuted people of God have been the Novatians, Donatists, Cathari, Paterines, Paulicians, Petrobrusians, Henericans, Arnoldists, Albigenses, Waldenses, Lollards, Mennonites and baptists, nearly all of whom were occasionally designated Anabaptist or re-baptizers by their enemies, because they disregarded infant or unregenerate baptism, and baptize all adults, whether previously baptized or not, who, upon a credible profession of faith, applied to them for the membership in their churches-thus insisting upon a spiritual or regenerated church membership, the First and most important mark of the apostolic church. " (Source Hassel, History of the Church of God).

I agree the reformers helped rediscover many of the doctrines that Baptist lost site of and the reformers reemphasized or perhaps we may even say "rediscovered", that being mainly the five points of the doctrines of grace.

Brother Joe

 

I agree brother.

 

I agree with everything but the listing of "soul liberty" as a major issue.