Sunday vs Saturday Resurrection?

[rstrats]

vooks,

re: "You know the argument that that the setting aside is private is quite nonsensical..."

If I did I wouldn't have mentioned it.



re: "Secondly, why Sunday and not any other day?"

I don't know, and neither do you - scripture doesn't say.



re: "ThirdLy, the idea that the instruction was to two churches and not all churches is mighty silly."

Perhaps; Paul very well may have, but it is still inaccurate to say that scripture says that he gave the instruction to all the churches.

 

[vooks]

vooks,

re: "You know the argument that that the setting aside is private is quite nonsensical..."

If I did I wouldn't have mentioned it.

Now you know. Please read up the verse again

re: "Secondly, why Sunday and not any other day?"

I don't know, and neither do you - scripture doesn't say.

We know why...to make his collection easy when he visits. If there were regular Saturday meetings, would that not have formed the best time to gather the offering?

re: "ThirdLy, the idea that the instruction was to two churches and not all churches is mighty silly."

Perhaps; Paul very well may have, but it is still inaccurate to say that scripture says that he gave the instruction to all the churches.

Sure, just as is inaccurate to say scriptures gives instructions on using spiritual gifts to all the churches, right?

 

[vooks]

I notice rstrats is busy with sideshows while ignoring the elephant in the room; Luke 24.

Do you agree with scriptures that the THIRD day is either the day after tomorrow or the day before yesterday?

 

[rstrats]

vooks,

re: "Nobody said there was a scripture to that effect."

True. But you wrote: "The resurrection gave prominence to the First Day of the week so much that after Pentecost, Christians regularly met on this day to commemorate the resurrection."

That statement might give some looking in on this topic the impression that commemoration of the resurrection on the first day of the week was scriptural . I merely wanted to point out that it wasn't.

 

[vooks]

vooks,

re: "Nobody said there was a scripture to that effect."

True. But you wrote: "The resurrection gave prominence to the First Day of the week so much that after Pentecost, Christians regularly met on this day to commemorate the resurrection."

That statement might give some looking in on this topic the impression that commemoration of the resurrection on the first day of the week was scriptural . I merely wanted to point out that it wasn't.

Christian history bears me witness on the following;
1. Sunday meetings commemorated Sunday resurrection
2. Sunday resurrection was unanimously accepted for over 1700 years since Pentecost till some pea-brain Sabbatarians showed up in the late 18th century

PS
History does not form my doctrine, it merely reports what happened

 

[Hark]

Hank,

Just a minor correction on the nickname; that is not an " n " there, but an " r ". No biggie. The letter " r " does look close to the letter " n ".

re: "Do you consider the ordinance that Paul had given for all churches to follow in regards to collection being on the first day of the week?"

Yes, but as far as scripture is concerned, there were only 2 churches asked to do that - not "all churches".

That is not how I am reading it. Not sure how you got "two" churches out of that.

1 Corinthians 16:1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.

I read churches as plural and thus all the churches in Galatia. Galatia was not a city, but a region. More info at this link: It is interesting.

http://www.icr.org/books/defenders/7608/

Corinth was a city though, and so that may have led to your thinking that there were only two churches by assuming that Galatia was a city too.

Anyway, that was an order to give to all churches in Galatia regarding the collection of the saints which was to be held on the first day of the week.

2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.

Now you're reading this in relation to his request to avoid a special collecting when he comes does, but it does not change the ordinance as to when it was to be collected for the saints in all the churches.

re: "2 Corinthians 16:1...Seems to be a pretty good indicator that church services were held on Sunday."

I assume that you think that 1 Corinthians 16:2 supports your idea that NT Christians observed the first day of the week for their day of rest and worship. However, there is nothing in the verse that indicates that. The text that you are using merely says that everyone should "lay by him in store" on the first day of the week.

The New Swedish and Norwegian Bibles read: "At home by himself" The Lamsa Translation reads: "Let each of you put aside and keep in his house". The Weymouth reads: "Let each of you put on one side and store up at his home". Ballantine's Translation reads: "Let each of you lay up at home". The Syriac, on this passage reads: "Let every one of you lay aside and preserve at home". And the New Catholic Edition of the Bible reads: "....let each one of you put aside at home and lay up whatever he has a mind". This verse says nothing about going to church on the first day or even assembling together on the first day.

Paul was instructing the churches to set aside a portion from the bounty collected at church services as a collection for the saints for their ministry. It is in that regard, they were to set aside from the collection after church service on the first day of the week to give that small portion from that collection to the ministry of the saints.

Paul was not asking for a collection solely for the saints or a special collection for the saints, but to avoid that as he did not want a special collection for meeting his needs when he comes. This is why he gave the order that from the bounty collected after church service on the first day of the week, to set aside a portion of it for the ministry of the saints.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Holy Spirit is INDIFFERENT to days. You may esteem one above others or all alike, it's down to you. If you esteem one above others, don't judge and condemn those who don't and if you esteem all alike, don't judge or condemn those who esteem some days.

It is the Sabbatarians who mete out judgement on non-Sabbatarians. Obviously they worship their prophets and sectarian doctrines more than Holy Spirit

Watch how what is preached, is practiced.

 

[vooks]

Watch how what is preached, is practiced.

So Sunday is the Third day, Saturday is the Second Day, Friday is the First day but Thursday is The day?

The First day of creation was not the day AFTER God started creation but the very day he started creating. The First day of anything is The day it started or happened.

Similarly, the First day Jesus was dead is the very day he died. If Sunday was the Third day, He died on Friday...which blows your Boer logic to the nether parts of the earth.

You can only wriggle out if by 'these things' is meant events or activities that took place the day after Jesus died. But we have a full definition of 'these'

Luke 24:19-20 (KJV)
And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.


All these happened on Friday

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

… Not sure how you got "two" churches out of that.


1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints,as I have given order to thechurchesof Galatia, even so do ye.


I read churches as plural and thus all the churches in Galatia. Galatia was not a city, but a region. [Cut]


Corinth was a city though, and so that may have led to your thinking that there were only two churches by assuming that Galatia was a city too.


Anyway, that was an order to give to all churches in Galatia regarding the collection of the saints which was to be held on the first day of the week.


2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.


Now you're reading this in relation to his request to avoid a special collecting when he comes does, but it does not change the ordinance as to when it was to be collected for the saints in all the churches.

Check ‘dietakse’ from ‘diatassoh’ and ‘tais ekklehsiais’. It wasn’t an “~order~” but “an arrangement I (Paul) made WITH the churches” ---not ordered TO, any churches—, there’s no Accusative of any direct object.


Therefore Paul announced this arrangement, and explained it after he had finished his sermon recorded in chapter 15 as its closing words to the implied attending audience at the occasion of his sermon---, to the effect . . .


“Please [tomorrow], on the First Day of the week, each one of you, WHEN BY YOURSELF ON YOUR OWN, LET HIM, put aside, saving whatsoever he might be able to, so that WHENEVER I come [Future Present, ‘elthoh’], you won’t have to grab together / collect (whatever).”


Paul said nothing like that he would come for the collection on the First Day. He said nothing to the churches he had preached to in the past or on the day before ---to no congregations in Galatia or wherever, that he would come for the collection on the First Day. He gave absolutely NO “~order~” to the effect and even less, introduced an “~ordinance~” to the effect all church collections should be made on the First Day of the week.

 

[vooks]

Check ‘dietakse’ from ‘diatassoh’ and ‘tais ekklehsiais’. It wasn’t an “~order~” but “an arrangement I (Paul) made WITH the churches” ---not ordered TO, any churches—, there’s no Accusative of any direct object.


Therefore Paul announced this arrangement, and explained it after he had finished his sermon recorded in chapter 15 as its closing words to the implied attending audience at the occasion of his sermon---, to the effect . . .


“Please [tomorrow], on the First Day of the week, each one of you, WHEN BY YOURSELF ON YOUR OWN, LET HIM, put aside, saving whatsoever he might be able to, so that WHENEVER I come [Future Present, ‘elthoh’], you won’t have to grab together / collect (whatever).”


Paul said nothing like that he would come for the collection on the First Day. He said nothing to the churches he had preached to in the past or on the day before ---to no congregations in Galatia or wherever, that he would come for the collection on the First Day. He gave absolutely NO “~order~” to the effect and even less, introduced an “~ordinance~” to the effect all church collections should be made on the First Day of the week.

Sabbatarians relish sideshows. Nobody said Paul would visit on Sunday. Besides, whether it is a command, a suggestion or 'arrangement',the import of this is the day Sunday. Why is a congregation that regularly meeting on Saturday meet up the next day to give their charity?

is it sin to collect charity on Sabbath? Do you presently meet on Sunday to collect charity?Thumbsdown

 

[Hark]

Check ‘dietakse’ from ‘diatassoh’ and ‘tais ekklehsiais’. It wasn’t an “~order~” but “an arrangement I (Paul) made WITH the churches” ---not ordered TO, any churches—, there’s no Accusative of any direct object.

One can lose the message by going back to the root word when they do not like the message as it is plainly written.

I understand that it is an "arrangement" in regards for the collection of the saints, but it is an order to take a portion from the bounty collected for the church and take that portion aside for the ministry to the saints to "avoid" having a special collection for the saints when they come. That way the church has it ready beforehand for Paul and any other minister in the field because they have been regularly taking a portion from the bounty collected for the saints that minister. The order is to avoid having a special collection when Paul or any ministering saint comes.

Therefore Paul announced this arrangement, and explained it after he had finished his sermon recorded in chapter 15 as its closing words to the implied attending audience at the occasion of his sermon---, to the effect . . .

If you are thinking that Paul is reading this epistle himself originally instead of writing it, that is not a valid.

The beginning of the epistle

1 Corinthians 1:1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, 2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth,....

And towards the closing of the epistle;

1 Corinthians 16:1Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem. 4 And if it be meet that I go also, they shall go with me. 5 Now I will come unto you, when I shall pass through Macedonia: for I do pass through Macedonia. 6 And it may be that I will abide, yea, and winter with you, that ye may bring me on my journey whithersoever I go. 7 For I will not see you now by the way; but I trust to tarry a while with you, if the Lord permit. 8 But I will tarry at Ephesus until Pentecost.

That does not read as if Paul was there at Corinth giving this epistle verbally.

“Please [tomorrow], on the First Day of the week, each one of you, WHEN BY YOURSELF ON YOUR OWN, LET HIM, put aside, saving whatsoever he might be able to, so that WHENEVER I come [Future Present, ‘elthoh’], you won’t have to grab together / collect (whatever).”

Paul said nothing like that he would come for the collection on the First Day. He said nothing to the churches he had preached to in the past or on the day before ---to no congregations in Galatia or wherever, that he would come for the collection on the First Day. He gave absolutely NO “~order~” to the effect and even less, introduced an “~ordinance~” to the effect all church collections should be made on the First Day of the week.

You have to ask yourself if you are wanting those inserted words to mean that or not, or whether this thinking is due to whatever doctrinal teaching you are under for wherever you are getting your schooling at, because that cannot be the message Paul is giving in the epistle.

Do discern that with Him.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Paul was instructing the churches to set aside a portion from the bounty collected at church services as a collection for the saints for their ministry. It is in that regard, they were to set aside from the collection after church service on the first day of the week to give that small portion from that collection to the ministry of the saints.

Paul was not asking for a collection solely for the saints or a special collection for the saints, but to avoid that as he did not want a special collection for meeting his needs when he comes. This is why he gave the order that from the bounty collected after church service on the first day of the week, to set aside a portion of it for the ministry of the saints.

Re:

“~Paul was instructing the churches to set aside a portion from the bounty collected at church services as a collection for the saints for their ministry.~”

Paul was not “~instructing the churches~”; he made an announcement and advised the individual church attendees. He addressed them in the Singular on the day that Paul had preached 1Corinthians 15 on, viz. on the Sabbath Day before “the First Day of the week”—when Paul had made his announcement “concerning or about the First Day of the week”.

So it was “on the First Day of the week” that they, “each one when privately at home”, “~were to set aside~”—viz., “work out” and “save” from their “private earnings”—, not “~after church service~” but “WHEN BY YOURSELF ON YOUR OWN AT HOME”.

And as a point of interest, Paul did not say all or future or past or current First Days, of the week. He announced, “About [tomorrow then] the First Day [—Singular] of the week (the working week of each one), Let everyone then work out what he will be able to give when I come.”

 

[vooks]

Re:

“~Paul was instructing the churches to set aside a portion from the bounty collected at church services as a collection for the saints for their ministry.~”

Paul was not “~instructing the churches~”; he made an announcement and advised the individual church attendees. He addressed them in the Singular on the day that Paul had preached 1Corinthians 15 on, viz. on the Sabbath Day before “the First Day of the week”—when Paul had made his announcement “concerning or about the First Day of the week”.

So it was “on the First Day of the week” that they, “each one when privately at home”, “~were to set aside~”—viz., “work out” and “save” from their “private earnings”—, not “~after church service~” but “WHEN BY YOURSELF ON YOUR OWN AT HOME”.

And as a point of interest, Paul did not say all or future or past or current First Days, of the week. He announced, “About [tomorrow then] the First Day [—Singular] of the week (the working week of each one), Let everyone then work out what he will be able to give when I come.”

Gerhard you are not serious.
First, where is the evidence that chapter 15 is a sermon delivered on sabbath?

Secondly, the epistle, obviously take more than a single day to reach Corinth for what would have been the point of such a tedious and expensive exercise if Paul was hours away from Corinth? Would it not have been wiser for him to expend that time heading to Corinth?

Thirdly, has it escaped you that he records giving similar instructions to churches in Galatia?

I know @Hark thinks it rude to call out your insanity but there is really nothing more to your ramblings

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

So Sunday is the Third day, Saturday is the Second Day, Friday is the First day but Thursday isTheday?

No.

“~Sunday~” was “the third day SINCE crucified”; “~Saturday~” was the second day “SINCE crucified”; “~Friday~” was the first day “SINCE crucified”; and “~Thursday~” WAS “~the day~” THAT they crucified Him on.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

the First day Jesus was dead is the very day he died. If Sunday was the Third day, He died on Friday...which blows your Boer logic to the nether parts of the earth.

You say, “~If …~” --- “~If Sunday was the Third day~”.

“~Sunday~” was NOT “~the Third day~”. “~Sunday~” was “the third day SINCE the day they crucified Him and he died” PERIOD


But Joseph BURIED Him on the day after the day they had crucified Him and He had died on. Then Joseph had Jesus BURIED “and THAT DAY was The Preparation and the Sabbath was approaching mid-afternoon.”

 

[vooks]

No.

“~Sunday~” was “the third day SINCE crucified”; “~Saturday~” was the second day “SINCE crucified”; “~Friday~” was the first day “SINCE crucified”; and “~Thursday~” WAS “~theday~” THAT they crucified Him on.

Your first day at work is the very day you joined your employer and not the next day

Your first year in college is the very year you joined school and not the following year

Your firstborn is the very first thing to proceed from your loins

The FIRST day of creation was the very day creation kicked off and that was on Sunday.

The FIRST day since 'these things' is the very day 'these things' happened

And finally, the THIRD day is the day after tomorrow, the SECOND day is tomorrow, and TODAY is the FIRST day;

Luke 13:32 (KJV)
And he said unto them, Go ye, and tell that fox, Behold, I cast out devils, and I do cures to day and to morrow, and the third day I shall be perfected



Facts are stubborn

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

You can only wriggle out if by 'these things' is meant events or activities that took place the day after Jesus died. But we have a full definition of 'these'

Luke 24:19-20 (KJV)

And he said unto them,What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 Andhow the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.


All these happened on Friday

I have never tried to “~wriggle out if by 'these things' is meant events or activities that took place the day after Jesus died~”. On the contrary, who has been the one who consistently has argued “these things” EXCLUDED THE BURIAL?! Excluded the Burial exactly like Luke 24:19-20 (KJV)

And he said unto them,What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 Andhow the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.”, excludes the Burial.

 

[vooks]

You say, “~If …~” --- “~If Sunday was the Third day~”.

“~Sunday~” was NOT “~the Third day~”. “~Sunday~” was “the third day SINCE the day they crucified Him and he died” PERIOD


But Joseph BURIED Him on the day after the day they had crucified Him and He had died on. Then Joseph had Jesus BURIED “and THAT DAY was The Preparation and the Sabbath was approaching mid-afternoon.”

First,
'These things' are clear,there is no mention of his burial

Secondly,
His burial happened on the SAME day he died

Now, go and rehash your hare/boer-brained early morning burial theories we tear them to shreds

 

[vooks]

I have never tried to “~wriggle out wriggle out if by 'these things' is meant events or activities that took place the day after Jesus died~”. On the contrary, who has been the one who consistently has argued “these things” EXCLUDED THE BURIAL?! Excluded the Burial exactly like Luke 24:19-20 (KJV)

And he said unto them,What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20 Andhow the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.”, excludes the Burial.

You are not a bright boer by any stretch of imagination.
Look at your horrible inconsistency;

First, you argue that since Sunday is the THIRD day, Saturday is the Second day, Friday is the First day, and Thursday The day. Next you argue that by 'these things' refers to Friday events(burial according to the Boer apocryphal gospel). This would necessarily make it The day, Saturday First and Sunday Second! But Sunday is the THIRD day since 'these things'

Sunday can't be the THIRD day with respect to events transpiring on two different and consecutive days simultaneously.

So, is Sunday the THIRD day from the 'Thursday crucifixion or 'Friday burial'?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Gerhard you are not serious.

First, where is the evidence that chapter 15 is a sermon delivered on sabbath?

Paul “knew” nothing than “the power of His Resurrection”. He preached nothing less . . . wherever he went or stayed or preached. I need not tell you or any believer that. Jesus’ Resurrection was the subject of Paul’s EVERY SERMON. And the sermon of his sermons, was 1Corinthians 15! Jesus Christ the Dead Raised from the dead is the theme and “Substance” and “Essence” of the “solid food” Paul “ministered” to the “Body of Christ’s Own of Sabbaths’ Feast eating and drinking” the Word of Paul’s preaching and proclamation. EVERY Sabbath of his entire ministry Paul “ministered Nourishment”—“Christ given as Head to the Church”—the Church “holding to the Head while Nourishment (Substance : Christ Resurrected from the dead) being ministered, growing with the growth of God.”


If you cannot believe 1 Corinthians 15 was Paul’s choicest of Sabbaths’ sermons, it is to your own loss. I believe it was.


Then I have not repeated the implications which I stated above to the effect 1Corinthians 15 was a sermon which Paul preached on the Sabbath.