Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost? *for all Christians

[Hark]

Almost got in trouble replying to a similar thread in the Baptist only part of the forum. Oops. I have to be careful when replying to an interesting thread in "New Replies" search result. Some of them are in the Baptist only part of the forum.

Anyway, this is for all Christians which includes Baptists too.

So were men born again before Pentecost?

Let's follow the conversation.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Then Nicodemus had asked Jesus on how one is born again.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus replied asking Nicodemus if he would believe Him when He told him on how one is born again.

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Then He told Nicodemus when people will start to be born again.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

So after His ascension following His resurrection is when people will be born again. Then Jesus tells Nicodemus how they will be born again.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So the answer is "no" in regards to any one being born again before Pentecost.

For more information on how O.T. saints were "saved" before Pentecost, go to this link to this thread in this sub forum for all christians.

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/when-the-o-t-n-t-saints-were-saved.98238/

 

[TCassidy]

There is only one way of salvation, from Adam to the consummation of the ages. All people who are saved are saved the same way. One Lord. One Faith.

 

[Hark]

There is only one way of salvation, from Adam to the consummation of the ages. All people who are saved are saved the same way. One Lord. One Faith.

Amen. That is shared in more detail at the link to another thread in the this "all christian" subforum.

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/when-the-o-t-n-t-saints-were-saved.98238/

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Bob Hope]

Almost got in trouble replying to a similar thread in the Baptist only part of the forum. Oops. I have to be careful when replying to an interesting thread in "New Replies" search result. Some of them are in the Baptist only part of the forum.

Anyway, this is for all Christians which includes Baptists too.

So were men born again before Pentecost?

Let's follow the conversation.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

Then Nicodemus had asked Jesus on how one is born again.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

Jesus replied asking Nicodemus if he would believe Him when He told him on how one is born again.

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Then He told Nicodemus when people will start to be born again.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

So after His ascension following His resurrection is when people will be born again. Then Jesus tells Nicodemus how they will be born again.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

So the answer is "no" in regards to any one being born again before Pentecost.

For more information on how O.T. saints were "saved" before Pentecost, go to this link to this thread in this sub forum for all christians.

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/when-the-o-t-n-t-saints-were-saved.98238/

All men worthy of salvation, including Israelites, have been and will be justified through Messiah.


1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

 

[Hark]

All men worthy of salvation, including Israelites, have been and will be justified through Messiah.


1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Amen. That truth was also shared at the link to another thread.

http://www.baptistboard.com/threads/when-the-o-t-n-t-saints-were-saved.98238/

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Thanks for sharing.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

All men worthy of salvation, including Israelites, have been and will be justified through Messiah.


1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

No men are "worthy" of salvation.

 

[Bob Hope]

No men are "worthy" of salvation.

Funny these verses seem to indicate that some men are worthy and some are not.....

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 22:8
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.


Luke 20:35
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:


Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Revelation 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Funny these verses seem to indicate that some men are worthy and some are not.....Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.Matthew 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy. Luke 20:35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:Luke 21:36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
Revelation 3:4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

Those verses do say some are worthy, but why are they worthy? Revelation 3:4 you quoted says they are "worthy" and "have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white", ,but Revelation 7:14 tells us how they received their white garments to be made worthy, "and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" , thus it is clear they were not worthy on their own, but only on the account of Christ. It is evident on our own at best we the saints are "unprofitable" as Christ said, "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do" (Luke 17:10). What is the worth of one that has no profit?

Do we make ourselves worthy on our own merits or does the blood of the Lamb make us worthy? "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" One that is worthy on their own merits does not have to be redeemed.

Have all sinned "and come short of the glory of God" or do you believe are some worthy of the glory of God of their own merits? Are we going to be "be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" (Philippians 3:9)

Do you echo with what Paul said after he became born again, "in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing"? It is in light of such scriptures that I would not post things such as you did being worthy without qualifying it with what alone gives one any worth (grace alone through the blood alone).

 

[Darrell C]

There is only one way of salvation, from Adam to the consummation of the ages. All people who are saved are saved the same way. One Lord. One Faith.

That is not entirely accurate.

Revelation is progressive in Scripture and the revelation of the Gospel was a mystery hidden from the foundation of the world. This means there is at least a part of the History of men in which the Gospel was not revealed. New Birth requires the internal and eternal indwelling of God, and Peter states that new birth has a foundation of the Resurrection, which has a definite place in History, thus marks the calendar, so to speak.

Paul taught that it was in a particular point in time when this Mystery was revealed:


1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

All men worthy of salvation, including Israelites, have been and will be justified through Messiah.


1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

This is of course true, as only Christ can justify in an eternal context.

However, that is not to say that men in the Old Testament Eras benefitted, in that day, from the Cross of Christ.

All men prior to the opportunity to trust in the Risen Christ died having offered up the blood of animals, at best, for their sin. Their transgressions, though declared just by God, were not redeemed until Christ died:


Hebrews 9:11-15

King James Version (KJV)

11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


The Covenant of Law did not effect eternal redemption, only Christ could do that.

The Covenant of Law did not bring redemption of transgression, or, the forgiveness of sins on an eternal basis. Only Christ could do that.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Those verses do say some are worthy, but why are they worthy? Revelation 3:4 you quoted says they are "worthy" and "have not defiled their garments, and they shall walk with me in white", ,but Revelation 7:14 tells us how they received their white garments to be made worthy, "and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" , thus it is clear they were not worthy on their own, but only on the account of Christ. It is evident on our own at best we the saints are "unprofitable" as Christ said, "So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do" (Luke 17:10). What is the worth of one that has no profit?

Do we make ourselves worthy on our own merits or does the blood of the Lamb make us worthy? "And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" One that is worthy on their own merits does not have to be redeemed.

Have all sinned "and come short of the glory of God" or do you believe are some worthy of the glory of God of their own merits? Are we going to be "be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:" (Philippians 3:9)

Do you echo with what Paul said after he became born again, "in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing"? It is in light of such scriptures that I would not post things such as you did being worthy without qualifying it with what alone gives one any worth (grace alone through the blood alone).

I would actually agree with both of you, and say that there is a condition and expectation of worthiness from a temporal perspective, as well as a worthiness from an eternal perspective which is attained only through Christ and the imputation of that "worthiness."

And long time no see, Brother Joseph. Just popping in for a few days to scope the landscape.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

That is not entirely accurate.

I disagree. The Proto-Evangelium is recorded as having been spoken in the very beginning of human-kind. Genesis 3:14 Yahweh God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed above all livestock, and above every animal of the field. You shall go on your belly and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.
15 I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”

 

[Darrell C]

I disagree. The Proto-Evangelium is recorded as having been spoken in the very beginning of human-kind. Genesis 3:14 Yahweh God said to the serpent, “Because you have done this, you are cursed above all livestock, and above every animal of the field. You shall go on your belly and you shall eat dust all the days of your life.
15 I will put hostility between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring. He will bruise your head, and you will bruise his heel.”

We have far more extensive promise in Messianic Psalms and Prophecy, yet that does not change the fact that it was not until the Lord came that we have the reality of the promise.

We can't equate promise with the reality of a fulfilled event.

Satan's head was not crushed until the Cross, and not one person understood that promise until the Cross. For the average Jew, like Peter, the thought of the Messiah dying, much less suffering the shame of the Cross was reprehensible.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

We can't equate promise with the reality of a fulfilled event.

The Atonement was offered to God in Eternity, not in Time. Jesus was crucified "from the foundation of the world." God is not limited by time, as we are. He can apply the atonement to any place in history from His place in Eternity.

 

[kyredneck]

Funny these verses seem to indicate that some men are worthy and some are not.....

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 22:8
Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.


Luke 20:35
But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:


Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.


Revelation 3:4
Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

When Christ first sent out the newly appointed 'apostles', he instructed them:

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and charged them, saying, Go not into any way of the Gentiles, and enter not into any city of the Samaritans:
6 but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers, cast out demons: freely ye received, freely give.
9 Get you no gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses;
10 no wallet for your journey, neither two coats, nor shoes, nor staff: for the laborer is worthy of his food.
11 And into whatsoever city or village ye shall enter, search out who in it is worthy; and there abide till ye go forth. Mt 10

3 Go your ways; behold, I send you forth as lambs in the midst of wolves.
4 Carry no purse, no wallet, no shoes; and salute no man on the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye shall enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if a son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon him: but if not, it shall turn to you again. Lu 10

 

[kyredneck]

when He told him on how one is born again.

Could you please pinpoint where Christ told Nicodemus how one can become 'born from above'? Especially taking into consideration what was written 2 chapters before:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

Then He told Nicodemus when people will start to be born again.

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Nothing above you cite that pinpoints WHEN people began to be 'born from above', but several passages in other places show the 'birth from above' to be nothing new, but a very old mystery that always has been:

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

 

[Hark]

Could you please pinpoint where Christ told Nicodemus how one can become 'born from above'? Especially taking into consideration what was written 2 chapters before:

13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. Jn 1

Well the John 1:12-13 reference was written by the witness of John the apostle as in an introduction about Jesus and what believing in Him will do as cited in John 1:12 for the result of being born again from above in John 1:13.

Nothing above you cite that pinpoints WHEN people began to be 'born from above', but several passages in other places show the 'birth from above' to be nothing new, but a very old mystery that always has been:

26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, which is our mother.
27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; Break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: For more are the children of the desolate than of her that hath the husband.
28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise.
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, so also it is now. Gal 4

Well, here is the portion in detail on what Jesus was answering Nicodemus on how these things can be about being born again.

John 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

Then He told Nicodemus when people will start to be born again as He is telling Nicodemus of heavenly things now of what is to come.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

So after His ascension in verse 13 as hinted and following His resurrection in verse 14 is when people will be born again in verse 15 below when also Jesus was answering Nicodemus how they will be born again which is by believing in Him.

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

 

[Darrell C]

The Atonement was offered to God in Eternity, not in Time. Jesus was crucified "from the foundation of the world." God is not limited by time, as we are. He can apply the atonement to any place in history from His place in Eternity.

That stands in contradiction to much teaching that makes it clear that salvation was awaited.

Would you not see this...


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


...as marking Redemption in time?

Can one be saved and not forgiven their sins?


God bless.

 

[kyredneck]

what believing in Him will do as cited in John 1:12 for the result of being born again from above in John 1:13.

No, Jn 1:12-13 is NOT teaching that one 'chooses of their own will' to be 'born not of their own will'. The two verses are teaching exactly what Christ was teaching Nicodemus in chap 3; BEFORE one can enter, or even see the kingdom of God, one must FIRST be born from above. Those 'receiving' Christ in v 12 were already born from above, i.e., of God [v.13], they were already children of God and now have the power to mature as sons of God as laid out in passages such as 2 Pet 1:2-11 with the entrance to the kingdom laid wide open to them.

Then He told Nicodemus when people will start to be born again as He is telling Nicodemus of heavenly things now of what is to come.

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

The primary reasons I use the literal translation 'born from above' over 'born again' is that it denies the free willers wiggle room to claim responsibility for their 'new' birth and emphasizes that it is "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God", and, it points to the antiquity of the heavenly birth in passages such as Ps 87, Isa 54, Gal 4:26-29.

8 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21

Note that the brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten. Those NOT bitten had no need to go to the brazen serpent.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for the Savior. These are already 'born from above of God' (I know it gets redundant but few seem willing to accept that man is totally passive in the heavenly birth just as they are with the earthly birth).

 

[Hark]

No, Jn 1:12-13 is NOT teaching that one 'chooses of their own will' to be 'born not of their own will'. The two verses are teaching exactly what Christ was teaching Nicodemus in chap 3; BEFORE one can enter, or even see the kingdom of God, one must FIRST be born from above. Those 'receiving' Christ in v 12 were already born from above, i.e., of God [v.13], they were already children of God and now have the power to mature as sons of God as laid out in passages such as 2 Pet 1:2-11 with the entrance to the kingdom laid wide open to them.

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is by hearing the gospel that faith & believing in Him comes.

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The primary reasons I use the literal translation 'born from above' over 'born again' is that it denies the free willers wiggle room to claim responsibility for their 'new' birth and emphasizes that it is "not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God", and, it points to the antiquity of the heavenly birth in passages such as Ps 87, Isa 54, Gal 4:26-29.

8 And Jehovah said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a standard: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he seeth it, shall live. Nu 21

Note that the brazen serpent was lifted up for those that were bitten. Those NOT bitten had no need to go to the brazen serpent.

.........They that are whole have no need of a physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners. Mk 2:17

6 Blessed are they that hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. Mt 5

It is the Spirit working within His children that causes them to feel their need for the Savior. These are already 'born from above of God' (I know it gets redundant but few seem willing to accept that man is totally passive in the heavenly birth just as they are with the earthly birth).

I do not believe we have the so called "free will" to choose to believe when the Father is the One that is drawing us unto the Son ( John 6:44 John 6:65 ) to reveal the Son to us so we can believe. Matthew 11:25-27

I believe that our believing in Him is a work of God the Father Himself ( John 3:18-21 ) because He knows whom are seeking Him from those that are not. Matthew 7:6-8

Acts 16:6 Now when they had gone throughout Phrygia and the region of Galatia, and were forbidden of the Holy Ghost to preach the word in Asia, 7 After they were come to Mysia, they assayed to go into Bithynia: but the Spirit suffered them not. 8 And they passing by Mysia came down to Troas. 9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us. 10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.

So when I say when we believe in Him is when we are born again, I am also including the believing in Him part as a work of the Father.

If you consider how faith is a fruit of the Spirit ( Galatians 5:22 ), then you know our believing in Him is a work of God the Father in having that fruit of the Spirit of faith in Jesus Christ with thanks to Jesus Christ and God the Father since that fruit of righteousness is by Jesus Christ. Philippians 1:11