Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[Darrell C]

Not men, but women and children were.

It all depends on what you mean by "born again."

Does "born again" or my preferred interpretation of John 3, "born from above," mean someone who has the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit?

If so, then no.

If you are asking if persons knew God, were empowered to obedience, experienced grace, and received eternal life, then yes.

I think we must look to the New Testament definitions of New Birth, which can easily be understood if we simply look at the condition of the New Testament believer and contrast that with the condition of the Old Testament believer.

A few things to see as different would be...

1. The redemption of transgressions as opposed to the awaiting of redemption, or forgiveness of sin which is complete (no longer requiring the substitute which was animal sacrifice).

2. The Eternal Indwelling which began with the Coming of the Comforter as opposed to the Spirit of God ministering under Old Testament standard.

3. Entrance to Heaven upon death as opposed to Sheol/Hades.

4. The fulfillment of promise as opposed to awaiting it.


When we consider if we are saved in this Age we would not say we are unless all of these are true. We can say we have benefitted from the above whereas the Old Testament Saint had not.

The New Birth, as I see it, is the event in which through faith one is Baptized with the Spirit of God, which is the reason why we are a "new creature." Formerly we were natural men, separated from God at birth, and without life. When we are indwelt by God our natural condition, that inheritance from Adam, is corrected, and we have Eternal Life based on our union with Him.

The difference between those who have eternal life and those who do not is simply a matter of those who do are indwelt in the New Covenant "reunion" of God and man. We are reconciled in this union which is a different relationship than that afforded in the Old Testament between God and men. This is why Christ states "I am the True Vine," contrasted with the former relationship which was basically through Israel. Relationship would no longer be through the Covenant of Law, but through Christ Himself.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Ezekiel 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

If God could do this nationally, I see no reason why He could not do this individually as well.

This passage contains promise, and was never fulfilled in the history of Israel until Pentecost.

This lists the benefits we receive in the New Birth, all of which hinge on that final promise, "I will put my Spirit within you..."

That promise was fulfilled at Pentecost:


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


If we impose a reception of promises made in the Old Testament as having already been received, then we could say, yes, men were born again before Pentecost. However, if we understand the Baptism with the Holy Spirit to be that moment when Reconciliation began on an eternal basis, we can see that the promise found in Ezekiel was not fulfilled until this day.

Christ states "...which, saith He, ye have heard of Me," and we ask where did Christ speak of the Promise of the Father? He spoke often of those promises, and the promise of primary importance in reconciliation was the promise of His Spirit, which He gives definitive teaching of in John 14 and 16. Here is an example which highlights the coming Ministry of the Comforter:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


We notice that this speaks of a future time in which required is Christ's return to Heaven. Here we find one of the greatest distinctions between Old and New Testament Economies: the convicting Ministry of the Comforter. What is different is that prior to the Cross no man trusted in Christ's death, and that is precisely what the Lord states He will do...when He comes. It is for the purpose that men believe on Christ, and this was not something being performed in the Old Testament, nor did they have the Cross itself to place their faith in.

When we are saved today, it is the Comforter Who enlightens us, and it is He that indwells us. This is distinctly New Covenant, and we cannot be distinguished as born again apart from having been convicted of sin through having Gospel truth revealed to us, placing faith in Christ, and being Baptized with the Spirit (immersed into God spiritually).


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

He said "you must be"

Then added "unless you are ______, then you cannot _____."

Jesus never said "be born again", this was all in response to Nicodemus' initial statement. Maybe some paraphrasing might help drive my point.

Nic: We know you're from God, we saw your miracles

Jesus: you can't perceive the Kingdom of God unless you're born again.


Then that begs a few questions:
What has "Kingdom of God" anything to do with the miracles Nic saw?

Or does "Kingdom of God" relate to "we know you're from God" ?

What is "Kingdom of God" anyway? Sounds like Jesus came out of left field.

But it's not out of left field if Paul is to be believed as to what is "Kingdom of God" (Romans 14:17)

One of the questions to ask is "What Kingdom would Nicodemus related to?"

The answer is, the Kingdom promised by God.

We know that the Gospel remained Mystery until Pentecost, thus, it is reasonable to place this conversation in the same context that the Ministry of Christ was for the majority. When He sent the disciples out to preach the Kingdom, they were not going out telling men to trust in Christ's death. Peter did all he could to prevent Christ from going to the Cross.

This places this conversation in a similar context that we see in John 15, where told to abide in Christ, we see that the Lord did not forget that they would in fact, according to prophecy...be scattered.

Though Nicodemus is told men must be born again, that does not mean it was occurring at that time, just as the disciples were not witnesses of the Resurrected Christ when they were instructed concerning the witness they would soon be performing as born again believers, indwelt by the Spirit of God.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

This "born again" thing is something that happens to us by the Holy Spirit, whereby He cleanses our inner man of all sin - not behavior, but the disease of sin.

Technically I would agree, however, Christ is the Baptizer. Of course God is One, but, we do recognize the roles assigned to the Persons of the Trinity. So in one sense we can say "Regeneration is something that happens to us by Christ, wherein He places us into Himself through Union with His Holy Spirit."

All of the promises of Ezekiel 36:22-27 are all effected in the New Birth. We are cleansed of sin, our heart is new, our spirit is new, and we have the Spirit promised. Yet not one of these could take place apart from the foundation of the Cross. Apart from remission of sins Reconciliation cannot be effected.


God bless.

 

[John of Japan]

The Lord also told the disciples to abide in Him in John 15, yet not one of them did.

Sure they did.

The Lord gave instruction that they were to be witnesses of Him, yet they were not empowered until Pentecost.

Please pay attention to the grammar in Luke's Great Commission, which you are referring to. They were certainly witnesses at the time Christ said they were. The power was promised at a future event, that is true.

However, there is no future tense in John 3. The Greek grammar ("it is necessary to be born again") spoke to a present necessity for entering the Kingdom of God which Jesus was preaching at that time.

Here is a question John, did the Old Testament Saints have everlasting life?

Absolutely.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
The Lord also told the disciples to abide in Him in John 15, yet not one of them did.
Click to expand...

Sure they did.

Christ makes it clear that is a future event:


John 7:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Christ's teaching demand belief in Him, and we understand this is central to the Cross, meaning that one must trust in the Cross of Christ, which is part and parcel with "believing in Christ."

John 20:31

But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


John 6:53
Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


(ignore the emphasis, it is a result of the search)

Now who was trusting in Christ prior to the Cross and Pentecost?

No one.

You say they were aboding in Christ, yet Christ knew differently:


John 16:28-32

King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


The Gospels show that not one man, not even among the disciples...believed according to New Covenant/Testament conditions.

Peter was opposed to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Matthew 16:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

However, there is no future tense in John 3.

The future tense is derived by the events themselves.

When we look at the New Birth we understand that it is the same concept taught by Christ Pre-Pentecost as it is taught by the Apostles Post-Pentecost.

Salvation is in fact being born of God, and not one Old Testament Saint was born of God.

Faith in Christ is required, and while some will say "Well, they looked forward to the Cross, whereas we look back at it," that is not sound reasoning. If anyone was going to look forward to the Cross it would have been Christ's disciples, yet they had no idea that it was necessary for Christ to die.

That is because the Gospel was not revealed in that Age or any prior Age:


Romans 16:24-26

King James Version (KJV)

24 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Again, Christ did not send the disciples out to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, for if that had been revealed to them, we would not see them scattered, leaving Christ to die...alone.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Please pay attention to the grammar in Luke's Great Commission, which you are referring to.

I was not referring to the Great Commission, which was a post-Cross event.

Luke 12:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 And when they bring you unto the synagogues, and unto magistrates, and powers, take ye no thought how or what thing ye shall answer, or what ye shall say:

12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.


The disciple's testimony of the Risen Christ would not begin until after Pentecost, and just as the Comforter was sent to testify of the crucified and Risen Christ, which was not present in Christ's earthly ministry among Israel, even so the disciple's ministry in testifying of the Gospel did not, and could not begin until after Christ's Ascension and the coming of the Comforter:


Acts 1:6-9

King James Version (KJV)

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.

8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

They were certainly witnesses at the time Christ said they were.

And when was that?

It was not before they were empowered through receiving the Holy Ghost.

The power was promised at a future event, that is true.

Precisely.

The Greek grammar ("it is necessary to be born again") spoke to a present necessity for entering the Kingdom of God which Jesus was preaching at that time.

First, I would ask you what Kingdom is in view?

This is not a general reference to God's rule and reign over believers (which has always been present in the world), for Christ stated Himself "...the Kingdom of God is within you. We would nullify His teaching in John 3 if we impose a general Kingdom.

Rather, the Kingdom in view, in a specifically Jewish context, would be that Kingdom promised by God to Israel (and by extension all who believe).

Secondly, let me ask you this: can a man be born again yet not have his sin forgiven through Christ?


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Here is a question John, did the Old Testament Saints have everlasting life?
Click to expand...

Absolutely.

Then why did Christ come?


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Does this not place in time a point in which men are empowered to be sons of God? To be born of God?

John defines regeneration here:



1 John 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Again...who believed on the crucified and risen Christ in the Old Testament (and this includes the period of Christ's earthly Ministry)?


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Here Peter tells us that we are born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How were men born again prior to that Resurrection?


God bless.

 

[tyndale1946]

Then why did Christ come?


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Does this not place in time a point in which men are empowered to be sons of God? To be born of God?

John defines regeneration here:



1 John 5:1-5

King James Version (KJV)

1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.

3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?


Again...who believed on the crucified and risen Christ in the Old Testament (and this includes the period of Christ's earthly Ministry)?


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



Here Peter tells us that we are born again by the Resurrection of Jesus Christ.

How were men born again prior to that Resurrection?


God bless.

I wanted to jump in here for a minute and ask this question not meaning to sideline the discussion but Nicodemus according to his conversation with Jesus was lacking in his knowledge of what Jesus told him... How can these things be?... Jesus answered... Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? ... According to this Nicodemus being a master of Israel was suppose to know this wasn't he?... Brother Glen

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

 

[John of Japan]

Christ makes it clear that is a future event:

Nope, sorry. None of the passages you quoted were about abiding in Christ. John 15 is the only place in the NT to use this metaphor, and it is a present tense verb there, not future. Almost all the other times the word "abide" is used, it is a literal meaning (stay, remain), not the metaphor.

You are barking up a tree that doesn't exist.

 

[John of Japan]

Then why did Christ come?

Are you telling me that you don't believe an Old Testament saint could be saved? I believe they were saved by faith in the coming Messiah, and had everlasting life.

As to why did Christ come, Paul said it well in 1 Tim. 1:15, "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief."

So Christ came to save sinners, whether they were OT saints, for which then salvation became a present reality, or believers after His resurrection.

Look in the OT for "everlasting" or "eternal." It occurs 67 times, many of which mentions are soteriological, especially in the Psalms.

But none of this is material to the exegesis of "born again" in John 3, since it was a present tense command to Nicodemus. Christ did not normally give present tense commands which could not be obeyed.

 

[JamesL]

.... Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? ... According to this Nicodemus being a master of Israel was suppose to know this wasn't he?... Brother Glen

to be fair to Nicodemus, most "masters" of Christianity today don't know, either.

By and large, Christians believe regeneration and born again are some sort of mystical, subjective treatment of the mind.

There's a great unwillingness to call oneself righteous, sinless, perfect, etc....

So instead, regeneration is reduced to a change in disposition; a change of desires; a change of our will....

These are all things pertaining to the mind. Then righteousness is reduced to justification

I've asked numerous Christians - if you are only "viewed" as righteous, if your sins are merely "covered", when will your righteousness become a reality? When will your sins literally be removed?

You ought to see the deer in the headlights when those questions are asked. Might as well be Nicodemus I'm talking to

 

[JonC]

to be fair to Nicodemus, most "masters" of Christianity today don't know, either.

By and large, Christians believe regeneration and born again are some sort of mystical, subjective treatment of the mind.

There's a great unwillingness to call oneself righteous, sinless, perfect, etc....

So instead, regeneration is reduced to a change in disposition; a change of desires; a change of our will....

These are all things pertaining to the mind. Then righteousness is reduced to justification

I've asked numerous Christians - if you are only "viewed" as righteous, if your sins are merely "covered", when will your righteousness become a reality? When will your sins literally be removed?

You ought to see the deer in the headlights when those questions are asked. Might as well be Nicodemus I'm talking to

I have also noticed an almost denial of conversion as the supernatural work of God and a strong emphasis on the intellect (not to dismiss the cognitive, only to denote salvation is more than mental apprehension). Yet God chose the foolish things......you have a good point here.

 

[Darrell C]

I wanted to jump in here for a minute and ask this question not meaning to sideline the discussion but Nicodemus according to his conversation with Jesus was lacking in his knowledge of what Jesus told him... How can these things be?... Jesus answered... Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? ... According to this Nicodemus being a master of Israel was suppose to know this wasn't he?... Brother Glen

John 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

This is the basis for some to say, "The Lord would not tell Nicodemus men had to be born again (or from above/of the Spirit, all of which pointing to being born of God) if it were not possible, because the Lord expects Nicodemus to know what He is speaking of."

That is sound reasoning, true, but complicates a very simple conversation. The reconciliation is that (1) the reason Nicodemus should have known what the Lord was speaking about was because this was promised to Israel, and again this directs our attention to the Promised Kingdom found in the Hebrew Scripture available to Nicodemus, and (2) we would have to impose a revelation of the mysteries which are not actually being revealed in this time.

Nicodemus should have immediately though of Ezekiel 36:21-27, not to mention the many various passages in which Israel was to be restored. That Kingdom was to be an everlasting Kingdom with the Son of David reigning forever. Being a great teacher, to reply in physical terms (enter the womb a second time) would be akin to a Christian today viewing Communion as physical (as they did then, thinking a literal eating of flesh and drinking of blood was in view.

Nicodemus should have been understanding of the spiritual element to being born again.

Of course Christ expected him to understand, it had been given Nicodemus in the revelation already provided to Israel.


God bless.

 

[Van]

Since we are conceived “in Adam” we are separated from God in our original form, but we are reborn “in Christ” when the Holy Spirit spiritually baptizes us into Christ. Just as Jesus is the first born from the dead, everyone else must follow Him in the regeneration from the dead. He became God's sin offering for us, and by the shedding of His blood, He became the propitiation for the whole world. No one could be reborn before Christ’s sacrificial death on the cross, and no one can enter the kingdom of God except by the washing of regeneration. See Titus 3:15. When Jesus speaks of His disciples following Him in the regeneration, He is speaking of Jesus becoming the first born from the dead, as demonstrated by His resurrection, and that only those disciples who follow Him in the rebirth after God accepts the sacrifice of Jesus, will sit upon the 12 thrones. See Matthew 19:28. Therefore the OT saints were not regenerated prior to Christ’s death on the cross, otherwise Jesus would not be the first born of many brethren from the dead. The Greek term translated regeneration means “again originated.” And this being born again from above, our spiritual baptism into Christ where we arise in Christ a new creation could not occur before Christ died on the cross, because Christ is the first born from the dead.

 

[Darrell C]

Nope, sorry. None of the passages you quoted were about abiding in Christ. John 15 is the only place in the NT to use this metaphor, and it is a present tense verb there, not future. Almost all the other times the word "abide" is used, it is a literal meaning (stay, remain), not the metaphor.

You are barking up a tree that doesn't exist.

These...


Now who was trusting in Christ prior to the Cross and Pentecost?

No one.

You say they were abiding in Christ, yet Christ knew differently:


John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


The Gospels show that not one man, not even among the disciples...believed according to New Covenant/Testament conditions.

Peter was opposed to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Matthew 16:21-23
King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



...speak to whether the disciples were abiding or not. Hard to say one is abiding when they forsake Christ and deny they know Him.

The first verses dealt with whether men had eternal life. I apologize for the mix-up, my computer got weird when I quoted your post and I had to import part of it back in, and think I got my wires crossed. The first time I posted it I had missed several of the quotes which is why it got out of order.

So I would ask you to comment on the passage from John 16 and tell me how you can get that the disciples were abiding, when the Lord challenges their statement of belief. He tells them they will forsake Him and that is precisely what happens.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Are you telling me that you don't believe an Old Testament saint could be saved?

Not at all, they were saved from an perspective that restrained judgment from being passed until their sins were forgiven through Christ. Their security was every bit as sure as our own.

But that does not mean they were born again, nor that their transgressions were redeemed, nor that they had eternal life.

This should settle that issue...


Hebrews 9:12-15King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


...but I know it won't.

The Old Testament Saints were saved, but when we equate that salvation to salvation in Christ we lessen the glory of the Work of Christ. We equate animal sacrifice with that of the Lord's Sacrifice, because we are saying essentially that both Old and New Testament Saints were saved in the same manner, receiving the same salvation.

If that is the case, then this...


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



...becomes meaningless.

The context of Chapter Ten, as we have discussed before, is one dealing with remission of sin. Under the Law...it was incomplete. Through Christ and the New Covenant, as the Writer states, it has been made complete for ever.

And every Old Testament Saint died having offered up animal sacrifice for his sin according to the Law and that commandment that preceded it, though we have no record (i.e., Abel, Noah, Abraham, Job).


Continued...

 

[John of Japan]

These...


Now who was trusting in Christ prior to the Cross and Pentecost?

No one.

You say they were abiding in Christ, yet Christ knew differently:


John 16:28-32
King James Version (KJV)

28 I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


The Gospels show that not one man, not even among the disciples...believed according to New Covenant/Testament conditions.

Peter was opposed to the very Gospel of Jesus Christ:


Matthew 16:21-23
King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.



...speak to whether the disciples were abiding or not. Hard to say one is abiding when they forsake Christ and deny they know Him.

The first verses dealt with whether men had eternal life. I apologize for the mix-up, my computer got weird when I quoted your post and I had to import part of it back in, and think I got my wires crossed. The first time I posted it I had missed several of the quotes which is why it got out of order.

So I would ask you to comment on the passage from John 16 and tell me how you can get that the disciples were abiding, when the Lord challenges their statement of belief. He tells them they will forsake Him and that is precisely what happens.


God bless.

You seem to have a presupposition that to abide one must do it all the time. I abide in Christ sometimes and at other times neglect to abide in Christ. The disciples were the same way. Simply because you can prove that there were times they were not abiding does not mean at all that they never abode in Christ until the Holy Spirit indwelt them. So in John 16 Peter abides in Christ and then he does not.

Once again, "abide" in John 15 is a metaphor. Similar metaphors include walking with Christ and walking in the Spirit. One must not interpret metaphors literally but as the figures of speech they are, and one must not build a doctrine on a figure of speech.

But all of this is moot. You have yet to establish from Scripture that being born again is ergo, the same as abiding in Christ. I believe they are two different things.

 

[JamesL]

Since we are conceived “in Adam” we are separated from God in our original form, but we are reborn “in Christ” when the Holy Spirit spiritually baptizes us into Christ.

this is the style and content that leads nowhere. Your entire opening line is speculation, and has every potential to derail the thread.