Was sin in the world before the law was given?

[JonC]

On another thread I commented that death came through sin and sin in the world before the law was given. This was quickly countered as unbiblical by several brothers. I respect that these men have different interpretations than I, and so as not to hijack that thread I thought I’d see if someone could explain their objection here. Like John Stott on this verse, I thought it clear (I don’t fully see the grounds for objection).

I believe that sin came into the world through Adam, and death through sin. Death spread to all men because all have sinned (we are all sinners), but that sin is not counted (as transgression of the law) where there is none given. So sin and death existed (from Adam to Moses) apart from the law (sin apart from being a transgression). I base this on Rom 5:12-14.

That passage was rejected on another thread by a few brothers who “prefer the Apostles’ ideas” that everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (1 Jn 3:4).

I am not claiming (no one is claiming) that we are not transgressors when we sin. What I am saying is that those who were not under the law were still sinners and still suffered the consequence of Adam’s sin which is death (Paul is setting the stage, so to speak, for Jesus as the “New Adam”). But I do not see John as negating Paul (they are not contradictory statements) and I do not believe there exists a primacy of Johannine over Pauline theology as all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training.

Was sin in the world before the law was given, yet not "counted" where there is no law? If not, please explain.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Ten Commandments were in effect....you were correct.

 

[TomLaPalm]

On another thread I commented that death came through sin and sin in the world before the law was given. This was quickly countered as unbiblical by several brothers. I respect that these men have different interpretations than I, and so as not to hijack that thread I thought I’d see if someone could explain their objection here. Like John Stott on this verse, I thought it clear (I don’t fully see the grounds for objection).

I believe that sin came into the world through Adam, and death through sin. Death spread to all men because all have sinned (we are all sinners), but that sin is not counted (as transgression of the law) where there is none given. So sin and death existed (from Adam to Moses) apart from the law (sin apart from being a transgression). I base this on Rom 5:12-14.

That passage was rejected on another thread by a few brothers who “prefer the Apostles’ ideas” that everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (1 Jn 3:4).

I am not claiming (no one is claiming) that we are not transgressors when we sin. What I am saying is that those who were not under the law were still sinners and still suffered the consequence of Adam’s sin which is death (Paul is setting the stage, so to speak, for Jesus as the “New Adam”). But I do not see John as negating Paul (they are not contradictory statements) and I do not believe there exists a primacy of Johannine over Pauline theology as all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training.

Was sin in the world before the law was given, yet not "counted" where there is no law? If not, please explain.

Sin was in the world before Adam, Satan was here. Sin entered the physical world through Adam.

The physical world was created because of sin, They were expelled from Heaven to HERE

Jesus was not a type of Adam, Adam was a type (anti type or opposite) of Christ

 

[TCassidy]

Sin was in the world before Adam,

How could that be? Genesis 1:31 God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

If sin, in the person of Satan, was in the world before Adam then either God did not create Satan, or God is a terrible judge of what is "very good."

 

[annsni]

Sin was in the world before Adam, Satan was here. Sin entered the physical world through Adam.

The physical world was created because of sin, They were expelled from Heaven to HERE

Jesus was not a type of Adam, Adam was a type (anti type or opposite) of Christ

The physical world was created for the fallen angels to come to? Do you have Scripture to support that?

 

[TomLaPalm]

How could that be? Genesis 1:31 God saw everything that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. There was evening and there was morning, a sixth day.

If sin, in the person of Satan, was in the world before Adam then either God did not create Satan, or God is a terrible judge of what is "very good."

Satan was in the Garden before Adam sinned. Who deceived Eve?

Good is not morally good but "good" according to God's purpose which is redemption and reconciliation of sinners. Adam was not morally good but innocent as a babe "not knowing good and evil"

But we know the earth was created at Satans fall because of "darkness" There was no darkness in Heaven but Satan and others were cast out into darkness. So Darkness was created.

The earth was created after Heaven because of
Job 38:7

When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Angels and "elohym" responded to creation of the earth

 

[TCassidy]

Satan was in the Garden before Adam sinned.

But that is not what you said. You said

Sin was in the world before Adam

The bible seems pretty clear that Adam was created prior to Satan's fall.

Who deceived Eve?

Satan.

 

[TomLaPalm]

But that is not what you said. You said The bible seems pretty clear that Adam was created prior to Satan's fall. Satan.

Well you are correct, I did say world, although the Garden would be correct. Satan was in universe before the earth was created. There is no darkness in heaven , Yet the angels are bound in darkness. Where was darkness .? God made light in Gen 1 -3 Man was made later, Satan was here before man and before the earth was formed

 

[JamesL]

On another thread I commented that death came through sin and sin in the world before the law was given. This was quickly countered as unbiblical by several brothers.....so as not to hijack that thread I thought I’d see if someone could explain their objection here....

I believe that sin came into the world through Adam, and death through sin.... I base this on Rom 5:12-14....

I am not claiming (no one is claiming) that we are not transgressors when we sin....

It seems we might have a hundred new threads started as offshoots related to that one thread on atonement....


But I think this may be an issue of an overtly narrow definition and view of sin.

Why were clean, defiled, whole, etc, related to the sacrificial system in the same manner that behavioral offenses were? Why is it that when Jesus healed someone, He would pronounce them forgiven? He actually said at one point that so His authority to forgive would be known, He was healing But further, why do the scriptures say that by His stripes we are healed? It's certainly not a guarantee of physical healing to every believer (as Charismatics would claim).

This sin spoken of in Romans 5:12-14; is it behavioral? Or is it a matter of corruption, spiritual disease, and the likes? Or both?

 

[TCassidy]

Satan was here before man and before the earth was formed

Yes, but unfallen. And darkness is not, of necessity, evil. It is merely the absence of light.

 

[JonC]

It seems we might have a hundred new threads started as offshoots related to that one thread on atonement....


But I think this may be an issue of an overtly narrow definition and view of sin.

Why were clean, defiled, whole, etc, related to the sacrificial system in the same manner that behavioral offenses were? Why is it that when Jesus healed someone, He would pronounce them forgiven? He actually said at one point that so His authority to forgive would be known, He was healing But further, why do the scriptures say that by His stripes we are healed? It's certainly not a guarantee of physical healing to every believer (as Charismatics would claim).

This sin spoken of in Romans 5:12-14; is it behavioral? Or is it a matter of corruption, spiritual disease, and the likes? Or both?

Yep....I was just looking at whether or not sin was in the world before the law....not what all sin entailed.

Ok....to muddy the waters and generate other points of discussion.....As far as forgiveness, I believe that Jesus forgave sins apart from them being paid in full by his vicarious death. I view the Atonement to address human sin (sinfulness) and not necessarily each individual sinful action (I believe no one perishes because of their sins, but because of their sinfulness of which sin is a manifestation). Sooooo......I believe that this sin spoken of in romans 5:12-14 is a matter of corruption which produces sinful actions (behavioral). God forgives sin, but the work of the atonement changes the leopards spots. I believe that Jesus healed physically as a sign that he had the authority to forgive sins.

 

[TomLaPalm]

Yes, but unfallen. And darkness is not, of necessity, evil. It is merely the absence of light.

Yes, but unfallen. And darkness is not, of necessity, evil. It is merely the absence of light.

no , Jesus commented He saw Satan fall as lightning. The instant Satan fell darkness had to be created.

The Father does not cast out the sinless. The only purpose of this ubiverse is to hold and offer redemption to sinners through the shared flesh and blood that God himself offered.

Darkness is the absence of light and it also shows the separation from God who is light, Darkness is an effective hold of the former "light bearer" Lucifer.

Jde 1:6

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darknessunto the judgment of the great day

 

[Darrell C]

On another thread I commented that death came through sin and sin in the world before the law was given. This was quickly countered as unbiblical by several brothers. I respect that these men have different interpretations than I, and so as not to hijack that thread I thought I’d see if someone could explain their objection here. Like John Stott on this verse, I thought it clear (I don’t fully see the grounds for objection).

I believe that sin came into the world through Adam, and death through sin. Death spread to all men because all have sinned (we are all sinners), but that sin is not counted (as transgression of the law) where there is none given. So sin and death existed (from Adam to Moses) apart from the law (sin apart from being a transgression). I base this on Rom 5:12-14.

That passage was rejected on another thread by a few brothers who “prefer the Apostles’ ideas” that everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. (1 Jn 3:4).

I am not claiming (no one is claiming) that we are not transgressors when we sin. What I am saying is that those who were not under the law were still sinners and still suffered the consequence of Adam’s sin which is death (Paul is setting the stage, so to speak, for Jesus as the “New Adam”). But I do not see John as negating Paul (they are not contradictory statements) and I do not believe there exists a primacy of Johannine over Pauline theology as all Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, reproof, correction, and training.

Was sin in the world before the law was given, yet not "counted" where there is no law? If not, please explain.

The Covenant of Law has a point in time when it was established and formalized, though we see elements of the Law Already in place (i.e., sacrifice for sin).

So yes, Scripture makes it clear that Sin was in the world before the Law was given, and is in fact the reason why the Law was given.

Consider that Adam's Fall was a result of sin, on the parts of three characters. Secondly, I would suggest that sin can be committed without conscious effort. Just because someone does not know something is sin doesn't mean they cannot commit sin.

But an example of why the Covenant made something sin for those under that Covenant but not for those not in relationship with God would be dietary laws. Would we see God condemning those who had not received those laws who ate of foods forbidden those of Israel?

I would have to agree with your position, there was sin in the world before the Law. This is seen in the fact that Adam sinned which is the reason for the Fall.


God bless.

 

[TomLaPalm]

But that is not what you said. You said The bible seems pretty clear that Adam was created prior to Satan's fall. Satan.

please elaborate on the statement "Adam was created prior to Satan's fall."

 

[JonC]

The Covenant of Law has a point in time when it was established and formalized, though we see elements of the Law Already in place (i.e., sacrifice for sin).

So yes, Scripture makes it clear that Sin was in the world before the Law was given, and is in fact the reason why the Law was given.

Consider that Adam's Fall was a result of sin, on the parts of three characters. Secondly, I would suggest that sin can be committed without conscious effort. Just because someone does not know something is sin doesn't mean they cannot commit sin.

But an example of why the Covenant made something sin for those under that Covenant but not for those not in relationship with God would be dietary laws. Would we see God condemning those who had not received those laws who ate of foods forbidden those of Israel?

I would have to agree with your position, there was sin in the world before the Law. This is seen in the fact that Adam sinned which is the reason for the Fall.


God bless.

For the most part, I think we agree. I view sin as a transgression of God's moral law a expressed in his nature. But Paul also has Adam as a transgressor because he sinned against God's direct commandment (not to eat the fruit, the consequences of disobedience being death). Afterwards sin was not transgressions of the law until Moses. (Paul specifically states that those who sinned between Adam and the giving of the law did not sin as Adam sinned, they did not transgress the law as none had been given. Later we will see that they did violate what was known of God's moral righteousness and character as revealed via nature, and they rebelled against what was known, they sinned).

 

[Darrell C]

For the most part, I think we agree. I view sin as a transgression of God's moral law a expressed in his nature. But Paul also has Adam as a transgressor because he sinned against God's direct commandment (not to eat the fruit, the consequences of disobedience being death). Afterwards sin was not transgressions of the law until Moses. (Paul specifically states that those who sinned between Adam and the giving of the law did not sin as Adam sinned, they did not transgress the law as none had been given. Later we will see that they did violate what was known of God's moral righteousness and character as revealed via nature, and they rebelled against what was known, they sinned).

I agree for the most part, and would only mention that the difference of those two Ages was not necessarily the sin itself, but, the penalty. The point is that when the Law was given, we have those direct commandments, and it is a basic Bible teaching that men are held accountable for the revelation provided them.

For Adam we had a very basic scenario, in which he was commanded in what he should do, and restraint (Don't eat of the tree...) was limited. Afterwards, prior to the establishment of the Law, we see that there are consistent patterns which reveal God's will (the greatest being the sacrifice for sin) being followed.


Romans 4:14-16

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,


You make a great point in pointing out that while they did not have the Covenant of Law, they were not guiltless. The internal witness and testimony of Creation maintained a "direct," if you will, revelation from God concerning His will. But, Paul makes it clear that culpability in regards to the Covenant of Law was specific to those under the Law. He goes on to make it clear as well that the Law was not the basis for Grace.

We see the same faith in those obedient to the Revelation of God basically being rewarded, even though they did not have that direct revelation of God's Will (and I think it is important to remember those who received that revelation did not obey it to the point where it had to be replaced with the New Covenant):


Romans 2:13-15

King James Version (KJV)

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)


So we might not argue extensively with those who proclaim "the Law" was prior to the Covenant, because in the most basic sense that is true. But, if we want to be Biblically accurate, we distinguish between the "Law (God's Will)" and the Covenant of Law. If we do so we will, I think, have a better understanding of Scripture.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

please elaborate on the statement "Adam was created prior to Satan's fall."

See post #4 in this thread.

 

[TomLaPalm]

See post #4 in this thread.

I read the posts.
I do not see why you think Adam was first in the sequence of creation and that Satan fell after Adam was created.

There is no reference to creating "angels" in Gen. but we know that angels existed during the creation of the earth from Job 38:7

 

[TomLaPalm]

The physical world was created for the fallen angels to come to? Do you have Scripture to support that?

yes, but let us consider what could be any other purpose?

 

[TCassidy]

I read the posts.
I do not see why you think Adam was first in the sequence of creation and that Satan fell after Adam was created.

There is no reference to creating "angels" in Gen. but we know that angels existed during the creation of the earth from Job 38:7

The question is not when angels were created. It is obvious they were created prior to the Earth. The question is when did Satan fall. And according to Genesis 1:31 that had to be after day 6 of creation.