Was sin in the world before the law was given?

[Darrell C]

Eze 28:14

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

Did I not quote this in my response?

He took a third of the "angels" with him.

Relevance?

He was a prisoner that once had a large group in his responsibility.

Relevance?

to reiterate, Satan sinned long ago, before Light was formed. That suggests that Heaven was created long before the universe. Jon 38:7

Would we think the abode of the Eternal God was Created?

Why is Satan here? We are only given one reason that suggest why anyone is here, held in darkness , awaiting judgement, Some sinners at God;s timing and conditions are offered pardons .

So are you saying you feel that Satan will receive a pardon? Has received one?

While I don't think we can be dogmatic as to why Satan is here, and I will reserve my own view for now, this has nothing to do with my response to the statements you made.

This is not a Biblical support for Satan being in charge nor does it support a view this universe is his prison. For that matter, we cannot dogmatically say that there are only two realities, Heaven and the Physical Universe, and this is doubtful because we would not place Hell in either Heaven nor in this current Universe. Yet Hell remains constant, and is said to already be in existence. We know it is, at least, in existence at the end of the Tribulation as the Antichrist and false prophet are cast into it. And that places Hell in a reality that will pass away.

The universe was not morally good/bad before Adam sinned but sin was here in the person of Satan and the fallen angels. The universe was and is a "place of the spiritually dead. that Jesus Himself said "let the dead bury their dead"
Mankind (the shared death of Christ) offers sinners redemption.

And that is irrelevant. Even if yo could show that when God said it was good that Satan was in the mix...Satan's sin is irrelevant to Adam's sin.

The universe was not "the place of the spiritually dead" when God created it. It is not until Adam sinned that we see a concept of spiritual death introduced to what is called of God...good.

Concerning your last statement, this too is interesting, so I wonder if you feel that mankind pre-existed his creation in Adam?


God bless.

 

[TomLaPalm]

Did I not quote this in my response?

Yes, you missed the point of scripture in your own statement.

Eze 28:14

Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.


Relevance?

Satan had a high rank, Probably over 1/3 of the assembly. Very close to God in the hierarchy.
The group is suggested to be intact by following statements
Jhn 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not inthe truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
Job 1:6
Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Satan was in the group commanded accountable to God.
Rev 12:9
And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Relevence? Satan had group responibility and although a prisoner still has a position of power

Eph 2:2

Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:



Relevance?




Would we think the abode of the Eternal God was Created?

Heaven and all inhabitants were created by God.
Rev 4:11

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.


So are you saying you feel that Satan will receive a pardon? Has received one?

Satan has not been pardoned, and will not but He will be incarnate .


While I don't think we can be dogmatic as to why Satan is here, and I will reserve my own view for now, this has nothing to do with my response to the statements you made.


Satan is here because it is a prison, for sinners. We are also sinners and cannot enter heaven as sinners.

This is not a Biblical support for Satan being in charge nor does it support a view this universe is his prison. For that matter, we cannot dogmatically say that there are only two realities, Heaven and the Physical Universe, and this is doubtful because we would not place Hell in either Heaven nor in this current Universe. Yet Hell remains constant, and is said to already be in existence. We know it is, at least, in existence at the end of the Tribulation as the Antichrist and false prophet are cast into it. And that places Hell in a reality that will pass away.

"hell" is translated differently from the more general "place of the dead "spiritually" to the place of eternal punishment as compared to lake of fire"




And that is irrelevant. Even if yo could show that when God said it was good that Satan was in the mix...Satan's sin is irrelevant to Adam's sin.

Sin is Sin, All unrighteousness is sin. Sin will not be allowed in God's presence

The universe was not "the place of the spiritually dead" when God created it. It is not until Adam sinned that we see a concept of spiritual death introduced to what is called of God...good.

Do you not accept that Satan and the fallen angels are here? and they are being held "awaiting judgement"?

Concerning your last statement, this too is interesting, so I wonder if you feel that mankind pre-existed his creation in Adam?

Not mankind, The physical beings and the place for them (earth) was created when God said.

When was the spiritual (souls) created is the question

Old Hebrew teaches all souls were made at once before "God rested from creating on Day 7 .

I have considered when the souls and the body , and "life " begins, though?

To place the importance of physical life over spiritual life is against Biblical teaching. Jesus said to pluck our an eye if it keeps us from going to hell, yet we as good Baptist then almost deify the physical as in Eden or the creation of the universe.

When do you think souls are created ot attached to a body?

we I didn;t do the re quote right.


God bless.

 

[TomLaPalm]

Well, I didn't requote Darrel correctly

 

[OldRegular]

I disagree.Genesis 2 seems clear that the command was to Adam (Eve was yet to be created) and Genesis 3 seems clear that the responsibilities was squarely on Adam. But more clear, in my view, is Paul's explanation that sin entered through Adams transgression.

Sorry, Scripture states that you are wrong!

Genesis 1:26-31
26* And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27* So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28* And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29* And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30* And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31* And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

 

[kyredneck]

Sorry

Hello OR! I'm not sorry , I'm glad to hear from you. I hope all has been well with you.

 

[OldRegular]

Hello OR! I'm not sorry , I'm glad to hear from you. I hope all has been well with you.

Old Age gets tough sometimes!

 

[JonC]

Sorry, Scripture states that you are wrong!

Genesis 1:26-31
26* And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27* So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28* And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29* And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30* And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31* And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

I see the error in your comments, brother. We don't get to pick which passages we want to believe, and Scripture NEVER contradicts itself. So how do we put Genesis 1, which speaks of man and woman being created on the sixth day, with Genesis 2 and the New Testament:

Genesis 1 gives a summary of the six days of creation. Yes, on the sixth day God created man and woman. I am not doubting this passage (and I do hold to a literal six day of creation....if you were wondering).

But Genesis 2 does not pick up where Genesis 1 left off. Think about it. 2:7 says "The the Lord God formed man of dust from the ground..." Is this another person? No, it is Adam. So Genesis 2 gives a more detailed look at God's act of Creation in Genesis 1.

Then the Lord God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, "From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." Then the Lord God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable o for him.” (Gen. 2:15-18)

And my statement that through Adam sin entered into the world is substantiated in the New Testament as well:

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned — for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come. (Rm. 5:12-14)

For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:21-22)

Do you still contend my statement that through Adam's transgression sin entered the world is an error (that it should read "through Eve's transgression")? If so, how do you justify that belief?

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[Darrell C]

Well, I didn't requote Darrel correctly

Not sure if you know it or not, but the forum has a new feature where, if you highlight something in a post you will get a quote/reply prompt (but it doesn't work on quotes within a post, sadly). If you hit quote it will save the highlighted portion which you can then insert when you are replying, and if you hit quote it will automatically place you in the response box.

Hope that helps.


God bless.

 

[TomLaPalm]

Not sure if you know it or not, but the forum has a new feature where, if you highlight something in a post you will get a quote/reply prompt (but it doesn't work on quotes within a post, sadly). If you hit quote it will save the highlighted portion which you can then insert when you are replying, and if you hit quote it will automatically place you in the response box.

Hope that helps.


God bless.

thanks, I will try it

 

[Darrell C]

thanks, I will try it

Let me know if I can be of any help.


God bless.