Featured Challenging statements about the atonement

I view the statement as correct for the most part, as in one sense we have inherited the sin nature due to the Fall.

Where I would differ from the implication of the word "inherited" is that I do not see the sin nature as something men possess (like they might inherit a disease), but, that sin nature is a result of something they do not have: spiritual relationship with God.

So the sin nature is the result of something we lack at birth, rather than something passed on to us.


God bless.

 

We see that not only can He, but that is the very case: we yet await the redemption of our bodies.

The same is true in regards to the redemption of sins, where usually most place a focus on the sinning, but overlook what the Atonement actually dealt with: the penalty for sin. Sin separates us from God, and requires atonement, hence Old Testament Saints offered up sacrifice and when they died, remained separated from God, being delivered into Sheol/Hades (Luke 16, for example).

The Atonement addresses Sin in eternity, and is primarily an address of the penalty, which is Eternal Separation. So the Old Testament Saint was saved from that penalty through the Cross, though the benefits are distinct in salvation between them and us. When we die, we will be in the presence of God, as we enjoy immediately reunion with God at salvation. The Atonement is immediate as well.

This was not the case for the Old Testament Saint, who, when they died, died having offered up only animal sacrifice at best. And while that was God ordained and effective in the temporal, we cannot equate that to the Atonement, and are forced to recognize that the Old Testament Saint died, enjoying the benefit of salvation which would ensure they were not eventually eternally separated, but, not yet reconciled to God through Christ.


God bless.

 

Here is what I view, based on the theme of "perfection/completion" found throughout Hebrews, a few verses that support what you are saying:


Hebrews 11:13; 39-40

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



God bless.

 

Heb 2:14

Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Flesh and blood is the method whereby we can share in one man's death to save us all.

Who condemned me then? Who has pronounced judgement? Jesus said the Father judgeth no man and the Father said all judgement is given to the Son.

The word flesh is being used two ways in scripture,. as the body or way of man. In the NT we have an included meaning of "dwelling in sin" versus "living in the spirit or Christ"

The body itself does not sin but the soul.

We are not sinners because we sin, We sin because we are sinners.

 

Agreed for the most part, though we can see that they awaited that heavenly city. Citizenry in the eternal sense was something promised and not realized by those who died in faith in expectation of that which would come when perfection was accomplished.

That was the point of the quote from Hebrews 12:23, that the Old Testament Saints were made perfect after their deaths at the time of the Cross. Their transgressions were redeemed at that point, thus we see "spirits made perfect," which is contrasted with the Covenant of Law, Hebrews 12:18-21.

Again, agreed for the most part, the only issue arising being an imposition of faith in Christ as it is revealed when the New Covenant is established. The Old Testament Saint truly awaited their Messiah, however, specific faith in the Cross of Christ was not something they had, and in fact we do not even see that in the first disciple of Christ. It is not until the Spirit of God in the Ministry of Comforter comes that this Mystery is revealed.

But he is correct in pointing out that they were not made perfect/complete. Hebrews makes it clear this was a result of the Sacrifice of Christ. The context centers on Remission of sins, and makes it clear that Christ's Sacrifice was the means for that which was promised to the Old Testament Saint in regards to the Covenant God would one day establish: Hebrews 8:12

I would disagree with Mr. Allen, based on the context of Hebrews itself. Entrance into the eternal is not in view at all, it is a matter of Remission of sins in general. The Writer does not center on our eternal state, but the state of believers in regards to remission of sins. He contrasts that which is temporal (the Tabernacle, the Priesthood, and the sacrifices) with the Ministry of Christ in Reconciliation/Atonement. To the New Covenant believer he states "You have not come to (the Covenant of Law)..., but you have come to Christ and the New Covenant."

Throughout the book is exhortation and warning to leave that which was incomplete and "go on unto" that which is complete.

Only those who are under Law can be said to fall into danger of the condemnation that arises from being under Law in this Age, for in doing so they are rejecting Christ and the New Covenant. Of course, it is basically impossible for anyone in this day to say they are keeping the Covenant of Law unless they obey it fully and offer up sacrifice for sins. We see a tendency for modern Judaizers to have created a keeping of the Covenant of Law that is not in fact in keeping with the Covenant as prescribed by God.

But that is nothing new, really, because it is because they did not keep the Law that the New Covenant was promised. Hebrews 8:8-9.

Agreed. Men could not be reconciled until the penalty for their sin was accomplished. The remission of sins under the Law (and this has significance because it was the Covenant instituted by God and in effect at the time of the Cross, the System abrogated by the New Covenant) was temporal and temporary, of necessity due to it's incomplete nature repeated often and daily.

You do not stand alone, I too take that position. I think the key in nailing it down is a proper understanding of regeneration and when that began to take place. The Baptism with the Holy Ghost is, according to John the Baptist, a future event at the time of his preaching. We see that this takes place at Pentecost and that Christ taught He had to return to Heaven before He could come.

It is the consistent teaching of both the Old Testament and the New, and helps us to understand Scripture better, in my view.


God bless.

 

Dispensationalism never results in more than one plan of salvation.

 

In a manner of speaking, yes. But no.

Righteousness was "credited" to the OT believer, but it was not an actuality bedore the cross.
I'm firmly convinced that OT saints went to Abraham's bosom when their body died, and that Abraham's bosom was part of Hades or Sheol - the place of the dead. But that now, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

Why all the animal sacrifices in OT if Christ's atonement was made applicable then? And why not animals now?

I believe this issue is hindered in the minds of most who believe regeneration must precede faith, which hinders an understanding of regeneration in the first place. And that whole thing stems from the misunderstanding that "coming" to Christ is something a man does

 

The comments from some "hyper-dispies" might seem to imply multiple plans, but other than that I agree with #32.

Galatians 3:24 states, "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." I see this as applying to the "requirements" of each dispensation, not a different path to salvation but God using different facets to show us that our works must fail and that only faith in Christ's finished work can justify.

 

Because they were not regenerated. They received a credited righteousness, but their sins had not been removed literally.

Think about the RCC doctrine of Purgatory. In essence, it is believed to be a time, after this life, where a "soul" (or spirit) is cleansed of sin, thereby making him perfect (sinless) because no sin shall enter Heaven.

I've asked numerous Protestants of various brands....if no sin shall enter Heaven, when and how will you ve made sinless so that you may enter?

Most have no clue, because they're thinking Christ's blood merely "covers" their sins, that forever through eternity they will ve a "covered" sinner.

I've heard only one statement on the issue in Protestant circles, 17 years or so ago, from RC Sproul. He simply stated that when we die, we'll be "cganged" to be made fit for heaven.

Uh, that's regeneration he was talking about, and he didn't even know it. But that's what is stated in WCF and others. There is no treatment of the the issue because it's not understood.

Regeneration is the act whereby a sinner is cleansed on the inside - his spirit becomes sinless. His body will be too, one day.

Regeneration means recreated without sin.

And if men in OT were sinless, why were they killing animals?