Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost? *for all Christians

[Darrell C]

On this we have to differ unfortunately.
Hebrews 10:26-29 (KJV)
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

While you, like many, see this as referring to born again believers losing their salvation, the context denies that.

If you notice there is a contrast between "Moses' Law" (the Covenant of Law, a prominent element of contrast throughout the Book) and the "Covenant sanctified by the Blood (death) of Christ.

In view is not born again believers in danger of losing salvation, but Hebrews in danger of not converting from the Law to the New Covenant.

Secondly, the action condemned is not terminology describing believers, but those who...

1. Tread under foot Christ;

2. Consider His death unholy (and this because they would view the sacrifices of the Law as holy, which they were, as the Law was God ordained);

3. Done despite, or, resisted the Spirit of Grace, which is precisely what we have been discussing: rejecting the Minjstry of the Comforter in revealing the truth for the purpose of conversion.

So the parallel, just as we see in regards to false teachers/false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1, is between those who rejected the First Covenant, and those that reject the New Covenant.

And you just can't make a born again believer out of someone who is guilty of the above. It's just not in the text. It is a direct statement of what they have done, and to make this mean they were saved then fell away stands in direct contradiction to the positive statement that salvation is complete in Christ.

Now watch this, I am going to back up a bit and show you the same statement of v.26 already stated:


Hebrews 10:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Compare with...


Hebrews 10:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


Again, we see that there is a basic truth presented, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. But, in the first reference we are told where remission of the transgressions is granted, there is no need for further offering, because as he explains throughout the Chapter, Christ's sacrifice brought completion, whereas the sacrifices of the Covenant of Law did not (Hebrews 10:1-4). They could not make the "comer thereunto complete," or, those sacrifices had to be offered over and over due to the incomplete nature of those offerings. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins, but, the sacrifice of Christ does., as promised in regards to the day when God when create a New Covenant to replace the old.

But in the second, while the same truth is given, it is speaking to those who were in danger of withdrawing from fellowship (forsaking the assembling of the brethren) because they rejected the New Covenant. The writer's point is that, "If you do that, there is no other sacrifice for sins you can turn to." That includes the sacrifices of the Law, because Christ's had fulfilled in reality what theirs only pictured.

That is why he (the Writer) compares them with those who rejected Moses' Law, and if you notice, what he is saying is that those who tread under foot Christ, consider the New Covenant unholy, and do despite unto the Spirit of Grace...

...will face a far greater judgment than the rejecters of the Covenant of Law:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


And just to finish up on this point, let's look at the statements that make it clear that salvation is complete in Christ, and why:


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The simple truth is to point out, as he does in Chapter 9, that the Law was only figure, shadow, parable. It could not make the worshipper (offerer) complete, which speaks of completion, bringing something to it's end. He makes it clear that those sacrifices could not take away sins.

Now see what he says about Christ's Sacrifice:


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


This is actually the clearest, simplest attestation to the eternality of salvation in Scripture, in my view, and it is ironic this passage is used to teach the exact opposite of what the writer is teaching.

Again we see the contrast between the Two Covenants and their services, the prominent focus being that of Christ's Sacrifice and what it accomplished, which what the offering of the Levitical Priesthood could not do...take away sins. Now we understand that context by including everything he teaches in this chapter, and thus we see that the perfection/completion in view is directly addressing remission of sins. This is why Christ had to die once, contrasted with the daily service of the Law.

If you keep reading you will see that once again the Promise of the New Covenant is mentioned:


15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


The point being that in view is the realization of the promise, which teaches that when one receives remission of sins through Christ...there is no more offering for sin. But it is a positive statement, not a negative. It is not saying "Hey, there's only one chance to be forgiven," but rather, he is teaching when we receive remission of sins we are made compete/perfect in regards to remission of sins for ever.

And that is a long time, Vooks.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

These are the false conversions you spoke about?

"False conversions" is correct but it is a little misleading to some who hear it. Better to say false profession, and false association. Something the Lord will say to the lost is "I never knew you." Being in relationship with God through the reconciliation is an intimate knowledge, and cannot be said of falsely professing "believers," or tares.

And that is one of the lessons of the parable of the Tares, they look like wheat, and are indistinguishable, but are not actually wheat.

Again, in view in both passages we have those who have rejected, not those who were born again. And it is when we come to understand the magnitude of Salvation in Christ that we begin to understand that Christ is in fact...the Savior.

We are born again by the Resurrection of Christ, and when we ascribe salvific value to anything we might accomplish then we add to the Cross of Christ. But as I said, He died alone, no-one but the Father with Him, making it quite impossible for men to ascribe any work they perform as contributing to salvation.

Another New Birth statement made by Paul makes that very clear:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Now, a couple of things I would ask you to consider here is...

1. we see clearly that works of righteousness, as is often by Paul, denied as a contributor to salvation;

2. We are saved by the washing (cleansing) of regeneration;

3. We are brought back into relationship with God. While many see "renewing of the Holy Ghost to refer to a work performed on Christians by the Holy Ghost, that is unlikely, for that is covered in "the washing of regeneration (new birth). In view is, I believe, a clear reference to the relationship between man and God, the relationship which was lost in the Fall.

When we see man as a contributor to his salvation, whether that is in obtaining it, or maintaining it, we conflict with Scripture's teaching that reserves the Title of Savior to Jesus Christ. That Role is occupied by One, that is Christ.

And I have to get going so I will get to your last post when I return. Thanks for the discussion.

God bless.

 

[Hark]

Again, I think you are equating iniquity with erroneous doctrine. Many sincere believers hold erroneous positions but that mean they are intentionally sinning.

I was a member of a Church at one point, and sending my nephew and nieces to a Christian School. One of the boys in the school was a member of my Church and he was messing around with my 13 year old niece, and in fact getting her involved in the practice of cutting herself (which is an ancient practice rooted in idolatry). I confronted the School, the boy, and my own Pastor. They ignored it. I left the church and pulled them out of the school.

Now that is what I call a failure of Church discipline.

But I don't see erroneous doctrine as intentional sin, because many who hold to these doctrines simply do not know any better. They sincerely believe they have embraced truth.

Let me ask you, how many times since you have been saved have you changed your position on any given doctrine? I know I have a number of times. And each time, I did not say, "Well, now I finally know the truth, now I am saved." The fact is that we are all in error about something, and we can only be grateful to God that we have not had the misfortune to have been indoctrinated into errors which for us...are easily understood to be error.

But the fact is that indoctrination is both something that occurs through heritage, as well as self imposed. Most of us can have the tendency to conform Scripture to that which we believe, and sometimes we can lose an ability to be objective in our study. But the time should come for all of us where we learn to study Scripture and to bring out of the text that which is there. This happens by reason of use, and forum discussion is, as I said before, an accelerated path for growth. When our views are challenged, we are forced to provide Scripture as support. Sometimes, if we are honest with ourselves, we find that we have read into something that isn't actually there. So think about the countless millions who only have what they are to believe supplied to them once a week (or even twice or three times a week). There is no affirmation from Scripture what is said is true, nor is there cross referencing all relevant passages to make sure it is not just a generality in the proof text.

So if you have a hunger for God's Word, praise God for that, because He is the One that has gifted you with that. And the ultimate reason for God gifting you in areas of the Word is for one reason: that souls might be led to Christ. And I can tell you one thing I believe to be true, it is hard to witness to someone we offend. While I do think sometimes it is necessary to "play devil's advocate" so to speak, and present object lessons in regards to behavior, I also think this is more for those we are certain, or at least fairly certain, are already saved. When it comes to Catholics, it is harder to assume that because of the Soteriology of Catholicism, being works-based as it is. So again, focus on what Scripture does teach, rather than what false religion teaches. There are ministries that deal with cults and false religions, and I appreciate those guys, but they usually have a particular cult or false religion they major in and minister to.

And didn't mean to go on so long, but thanks again for the discussion. I will give the passage some more consideration, and perhaps it will come up again, but, perhaps the thread should return to the OP, lol.

God bless.

I thank you for sharing out of concern for me and my walk with the Lord.

However, some points of contentions arises here that has led me to question your application.

But I don't see erroneous doctrine as intentional sin, because many who hold to these doctrines simply do not know any better. They sincerely believe they have embraced truth.

This is the danger of not knowing any better.

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.....47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Erroneous doctrines as iniquity can be seen here.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.

I could say that the evolution theory has caused many to err from the truth and overthrow the faith of some believers as they now, no longer believe in the Bible and in Him as a result. And yet....

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So any erroneous doctrine that voids faith can also be seen as a work of iniquity.

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Reprobate also means to be disqualified. From what? From being received as a vessel unto honor in His House when the Bridegroom comes.

So what is a believer and even a former believer to do? Go before that throne of grace for help from Jesus Christ to discern good and evil ( the lies that turned him away from the Bible and Him ) by the KJV for the actual meat of His words and lean on Him for help to depart from iniquity so as to avoid being disqualified and thus denied attendence to the Marriage Supper as a vessel unto honor in His House only to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor, but still in His House.

We see evidence of 2 Timothy 2:18-21 when we shoot on up the chapter to here as His disciples seek other believers to obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus which is to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House.

2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

Depending on what that erroneous doctrine is, even if it causes a believer to no longer believe in Him any more, He still abides in him even if that former believer denies Him. The same applies to a saved believer that did not know he had fallen away from the faith whose work is denying Him in that way for which he will be denied.

All believers are saved, but there is an order for how & when they will be received by Him in His House, because God is coming to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17 ) as we can trust the faithful Creator to keep the souls of those saints left behind for not being found abiding in Him.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

 

[vooks]

While you, like many, see this as referring to born again believers losing their salvation, the context denies that.

If you notice there is a contrast between "Moses' Law" (the Covenant of Law, a prominent element of contrast throughout the Book) and the "Covenant sanctified by the Blood (death) of Christ.

It is true there is a contrast between the Old and the New in Hebrews. In fact this is the biggest theme of the book showing how New is superior to the Old. But in this case, the contrast is on severity of apostasy. It is or it will be much worse in the New

In view is not born again believers in danger of losing salvation, but Hebrews in danger of not converting from the Law to the New Covenant.

Like I have always told @Hark, making claims is one thing, demonstrating a scriptural basis is another. Let's have this proof

Secondly, the action condemned is not terminology describing believers, but those who...

1. Tread under foot Christ;

2. Consider His death unholy (and this because they would view the sacrifices of the Law as holy, which they were, as the Law was God ordained);

3. Done despite, or, resisted the Spirit of Grace, which is precisely what we have been discussing: rejecting the Minjstry of the Comforter in revealing the truth for the purpose of conversion.

Why is it not? Because you say so?

So the parallel, just as we see in regards to false teachers/false prophets in 2 Peter 2:1, is between those who rejected the First Covenant, and those that reject the New Covenant.

And the assumption is believers can't be false teachers nor reject the New Covenant, right?

And you just can't make a born again believer out of someone who is guilty of the above. It's just not in the text.

The text @Darrell C tells us the subject was SANCTIFIED.
How do those who reject the New Covenant before accepting it become SANCTIFIED?

It is a direct statement of what they have done, and to make this mean they were saved then fell away stands in direct contradiction to the positive statement that salvation is complete in Christ.

This is what I was talking about. A priori biases make you read things into the text. Again like @Hark, you indulge in false dilemmas; if Christians could lose their salvation. Christ's salvation is incomplete.

The text says they were SANCTIFIED by the blood of the covenant.

Now watch this, I am going to back up a bit and show you the same statement of v.26 already stated:


Hebrews 10:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Compare with...


Hebrews 10:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

Great verses

Again, we see that there is a basic truth presented, there remains no more sacrifice for sin. But, in the first reference we are told where remission of the transgressions is granted, there is no need for further offering, because as he explains throughout the Chapter, Christ's sacrifice brought completion, whereas the sacrifices of the Covenant of Law did not (Hebrews 10:1-4). They could not make the "comer thereunto complete," or, those sacrifices had to be offered over and over due to the incomplete nature of those offerings. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins, but, the sacrifice of Christ does., as promised in regards to the day when God when create a New Covenant to replace the old.

Agreed. Christ's sacrifice is all-sufficient

But in the second, while the same truth is given, it is speaking to those who were in danger of withdrawing from fellowship (forsaking the assembling of the brethren) because they rejected the New Covenant. The writer's point is that, "If you do that, there is no other sacrifice for sins you can turn to." That includes the sacrifices of the Law, because Christ's had fulfilled in reality what theirs only pictured.

Disagreed. Your point is the author is merely appealing to the fact that the Old is totally gone so there is nothing to turn to. This would be sensible had he stopped at the highlighted. But it does not; let's read what is there instead of more sacrifice;

V27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Why @Darrell C is there judgement and indignation and no more sacrifice for those who sin willfully?
This is a WARNING and not merely a statement of absence of Old Covenant sacrifices. There is no remedy but terrible judgement is the point.

That is why he (the Writer) compares them with those who rejected Moses' Law, and if you notice, what he is saying is that those who tread under foot Christ, consider the New Covenant unholy, and do despite unto the Spirit of Grace...

...will face a far greater judgment than the rejecters of the Covenant of Law:


Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The author is comparing OT apostasy with NT apostasy. NT will be worse. That blood which saved them will not only be unavailable but the judgement and indignation will be harsh and it will be executed by God Himself not men!

And just to finish up on this point, let's look at the statements that make it clear that salvation is complete in Christ, and why:


Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The simple truth is to point out, as he does in Chapter 9, that the Law was only figure, shadow, parable. It could not make the worshipper (offerer) complete, which speaks of completion, bringing something to it's end. He makes it clear that those sacrifices could not take away sins.

You know @Darrell C, there are many points we could contrast the OLD and the NEW. On the subject verse(s), apostasy attracts a much harsher judgement. It takes copious amounts of denial to miss this

Now see what he says about Christ's Sacrifice:


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


This is actually the clearest, simplest attestation to the eternality of salvation in Scripture, in my view, and it is ironic this passage is used to teach the exact opposite of what the writer is teaching.

Ah the perfected/perfection clincher!

The problem is that you conflate Christ's perfect sacrifice with eternal security.
Of those sanctified and perfected forever is one who stares at sore punishment, judgement and indignation because he persists in sin-v27

Obviously whatever perfected means, it does not absolve willful sinners of a sore punishment

Again we see the contrast between the Two Covenants and their services, the prominent focus being that of Christ's Sacrifice and what it accomplished, which what the offering of the Levitical Priesthood could not do...take away sins. Now we understand that context by including everything he teaches in this chapter, and thus we see that the perfection/completion in view is directly addressing remission of sins. This is why Christ had to die once, contrasted with the daily service of the Law.

If you keep reading you will see that once again the Promise of the New Covenant is mentioned:


The point being that in view is the realization of the promise, which teaches that when one receives remission of sins through Christ...there is no more offering for sin. But it is a positive statement, not a negative. It is not saying "Hey, there's only one chance to be forgiven," but rather, he is teaching when we receive remission of sins we are made compete/perfect in regards to remission of sins for ever.

And that is a long time, Vooks.

Continued...

Great promises but no sacrifice for willful sins but a sore punishment.

 

[vooks]

"False conversions" is correct but it is a little misleading to some who hear it. Better to say false profession, and false association. Something the Lord will say to the lost is "I never knew you." Being in relationship with God through the reconciliation is an intimate knowledge, and cannot be said of falsely professing "believers," or tares.

And that is one of the lessons of the parable of the Tares, they look like wheat, and are indistinguishable, but are not actually wheat.

Again, in view in both passages we have those who have rejected, not those who were born again. And it is when we come to understand the magnitude of Salvation in Christ that we begin to understand that Christ is in fact...the Savior.

We are born again by the Resurrection of Christ, and when we ascribe salvific value to anything we might accomplish then we add to the Cross of Christ. But as I said, He died alone, no-one but the Father with Him, making it quite impossible for men to ascribe any work they perform as contributing to salvation.

Another New Birth statement made by Paul makes that very clear:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


Now, a couple of things I would ask you to consider here is...

1. we see clearly that works of righteousness, as is often by Paul, denied as a contributor to salvation;

2. We are saved by the washing (cleansing) of regeneration;

3. We are brought back into relationship with God. While many see "renewing of the Holy Ghost to refer to a work performed on Christians by the Holy Ghost, that is unlikely, for that is covered in "the washing of regeneration (new birth). In view is, I believe, a clear reference to the relationship between man and God, the relationship which was lost in the Fall.

When we see man as a contributor to his salvation, whether that is in obtaining it, or maintaining it, we conflict with Scripture's teaching that reserves the Title of Savior to Jesus Christ. That Role is occupied by One, that is Christ.

And I have to get going so I will get to your last post when I return. Thanks for the discussion.

God bless.

false whatever rocks your theological boat but they were SANCTIFIED by the blood of the covenant. Looks like Jesus staged their conversion

 

[Darrell C]

false whatever rocks your theological boat but they were SANCTIFIED by the blood of the covenant. Looks like Jesus staged their conversion

The text does not say they, it says He.


Hebrews 10:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Two points I will make:

1. You are making those who trod underfoot Christ saved instead of rejecters as the text plainly states.

2. We already know what happens when it is the believer in view being sanctified:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



This is something that will be understood through serious study and understanding of the passage. You will need to understand the rest of the passage in order to see that loss of salvation is not in the teaching of the Writer. And that is something you will never understand if you are predisposed to that view, it will not allow you to exegete the passage. There is more than enough in the previous post to show that in view are those who have rejected Christ and the New Covenant, and to make them born again believers conflicts with the teachings. You would have the Writer stating that believers are forever forgiven their sins, and then turning around and saying they have tread Christ underfoot, counted His Sacrifice unholy, and resisted the Holy Spirit.

Just doesn't fit.

My hope is one day you might understand that, but, this depends on you.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
Again, I think you are equating iniquity with erroneous doctrine. Many sincere believers hold erroneous positions but that mean they are intentionally sinning.

I was a member of a Church at one point, and sending my nephew and nieces to a Christian School. One of the boys in the school was a member of my Church and he was messing around with my 13 year old niece, and in fact getting her involved in the practice of cutting herself (which is an ancient practice rooted in idolatry). I confronted the School, the boy, and my own Pastor. They ignored it. I left the church and pulled them out of the school.

Now that is what I call a failure of Church discipline.

But I don't see erroneous doctrine as intentional sin, because many who hold to these doctrines simply do not know any better. They sincerely believe they have embraced truth.

Let me ask you, how many times since you have been saved have you changed your position on any given doctrine? I know I have a number of times. And each time, I did not say, "Well, now I finally know the truth, now I am saved." The fact is that we are all in error about something, and we can only be grateful to God that we have not had the misfortune to have been indoctrinated into errors which for us...are easily understood to be error.

But the fact is that indoctrination is both something that occurs through heritage, as well as self imposed. Most of us can have the tendency to conform Scripture to that which we believe, and sometimes we can lose an ability to be objective in our study. But the time should come for all of us where we learn to study Scripture and to bring out of the text that which is there. This happens by reason of use, and forum discussion is, as I said before, an accelerated path for growth. When our views are challenged, we are forced to provide Scripture as support. Sometimes, if we are honest with ourselves, we find that we have read into something that isn't actually there. So think about the countless millions who only have what they are to believe supplied to them once a week (or even twice or three times a week). There is no affirmation from Scripture what is said is true, nor is there cross referencing all relevant passages to make sure it is not just a generality in the proof text.

So if you have a hunger for God's Word, praise God for that, because He is the One that has gifted you with that. And the ultimate reason for God gifting you in areas of the Word is for one reason: that souls might be led to Christ. And I can tell you one thing I believe to be true, it is hard to witness to someone we offend. While I do think sometimes it is necessary to "play devil's advocate" so to speak, and present object lessons in regards to behavior, I also think this is more for those we are certain, or at least fairly certain, are already saved. When it comes to Catholics, it is harder to assume that because of the Soteriology of Catholicism, being works-based as it is. So again, focus on what Scripture does teach, rather than what false religion teaches. There are ministries that deal with cults and false religions, and I appreciate those guys, but they usually have a particular cult or false religion they major in and minister to.

And didn't mean to go on so long, but thanks again for the discussion. I will give the passage some more consideration, and perhaps it will come up again, but, perhaps the thread should return to the OP, lol.

God bless.
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I thank you for sharing out of concern for me and my walk with the Lord.

However, some points of contentions arises here that has led me to question your application.

You would not be the first one, lol.

But I don't see erroneous doctrine as intentional sin, because many who hold to these doctrines simply do not know any better. They sincerely believe they have embraced truth.
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This is the danger of not knowing any better.


Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Luke 12:40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.....47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. 49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

Erroneous doctrines as iniquity can be seen here.

You don't seem to have understood what I was saying. I am not saying that erroneous doctrine is okay.

Why do you think I am here? lol

I take erroneous doctrine very seriously, which is why I debate doctrine. However, what I am saying is that believers who do have erroneous doctrine does not equate to them being unbelievers.

And every proof text you offer clearly presents the two types of people in the world: believers and unbelievers.

In the first quote Christ does not know them. If you want to make them believers go ahead, but it conflicts with Scripture.

In the second quote the context is on which deals with Israel, not the Church. The Church is not even created at this time. The context is also one of Christ's Return, and the Rapture of the Church does not take place at that time.

So do I question whether you are a believer because you err? No, I simply acknowledge that you are learning.

2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
I could say that the evolution theory has caused many to err from the truth and overthrow the faith of some believers as they now, no longer believe in the Bible and in Him as a result. And yet....

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21 If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

So any erroneous doctrine that voids faith can also be seen as a work of iniquity.

In the first quote, it is their faith, not their salvation which the fallse professors overthrow. Big difference. In regards to Evolution being a cause of people losing faith, apparently you have not spent much time talking to Theistic Evolutionists. It has nothing to do with their beliefs on a soteriological level. They still believe in the Bible, just not the Young Earth Creationist/Conservative/Historical interpretation.

In the second quote you still miss the fact that not all believers hold the same position in the Body. This has nothing to do with the Rapture, and it has nothing to do with the difference between believers and unbelievers. What the text does say is that depending on the obedience of believers to sanctify themselves, they will either be vessels unto honor or vessels unto dishonor, but they will still be in the House.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Reprobate also means to be disqualified. From what? From being received as a vessel unto honor in His House when the Bridegroom comes.

Again...unbelieving.

Now, what I was speaking about was simply believers who are ignorant, indoctrinated, and still immature in their understanding due to the fact they haven't yet, by reason of use, reached a place of discernment based on a broader familiarity with the Word.

This is why so many teach loss of salvation.

So what is a believer and even a former believer to do?

There is no such thing as a "former believer."

As far as what believers are to do is what Scripture commands: study. But the facts are that believers are lazy, and ignorant in general. Again, not all are gifted in areas of the Word, so we don't expect everyone to be skilled in the Word, but, as the Writer of Hebrews admonishes his brethren, Hebrews, there is a Divine directive that should keep believers from being immature in understanding:


Hebrews 5:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


This warning goes out to all believers, that they do not replicate the ignorance of these Hebrews, who are immediately after told to go on unto perfection.

And it is no surprise that most ignore this part of the passage and use Hebrews 6:1-6 to teach loss of salvation.

But again, just because they are in error does not mean they are any less saved, lol.

Go before that throne of grace for help from Jesus Christ to discern good and evil ( the lies that turned him away from the Bible and Him )

Again, you need to speak with Theistic Evolutionists. This is just not the reality.

Those who reject Scripture are usually Atheistic and many of them make a clain of having at one time been saved. That is the lie, I give no credence to it at face value. It is at this point when I seek to discuss salvation with them, and every time they have no clue as to how one is saved.

by the KJV

I am not a KJVonlyist, and question those who are.

The KJV, while my favorite translation, is still just a translation. We have to consult the original languages, and any serious Theologian knows that.

For example, tell me what the writer of Hebrews means when he speaks of being perfect?

for the actual meat of His words and lean on Him for help to depart from iniquity so as to avoid being disqualified and thus denied attendence to the Marriage Supper as a vessel unto honor in His House only to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor, but still in His House.

Unbelievers have only one way to depart from iniquity, and that is to be saved.

And again, the above is not taught in Scripture, this has no correlation to the Rapture, which does not take place at Christ's Return. Secondly, you are removing them from the House if you have them left behind.

You do not have the first Scripture that teaches...

so as to avoid being disqualified and thus denied attendence to the Marriage Supper as a vessel unto honor in His House only to be received later on as a vessel unto dishonor


That is error, my friend. It is a blending of prooftexts to create a doctrine that Paul nor Christ taught in regards to the Rapture or the Return of Christ.

We see evidence of 2 Timothy 2:18-21 when we shoot on up the chapter to here as His disciples seek other believers to obtain that eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus which is to be received as a vessel unto honor in His House.


2 Timothy 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11 It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us: 13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.
Depending on what that erroneous doctrine is, even if it causes a believer to no longer believe in Him any more, He still abides in him even if that former believer denies Him. The same applies to a saved believer that did not know he had fallen away from the faith whose work is denying Him in that way for which he will be denied.

Let's add a little more to the first quote:

2 Timothy 2:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness.

17 And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus;

18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.


What is said here is we are to shun nonsense. These two were spewing erroneous doctrine, teaching the Resurrection had already passed. This threw some into despair because they thought they missed the Rapture. Now it is not their salvation that is overthrown, and nothing is said about them losing their salvation, what is in view is a matter of their faith in the sense of their daily lives, not Saving Faith.

In the second quote, you add to what you have said before, and have believers falling away and not even knowing it. You have believers who are said not to believe. And that is what the L.O.S.T. (Loss of Salvation Teachers) always do, they impose those who are clearly stated as unbelievers not known of Christ into the Body.

We have already looked at these passages, and I have already told you that I see this as an erroneous correlation.

All believers are saved, but there is an order for how & when they will be received by Him in His House, because God is coming to judge His House first ( 1 Peter 4:17 ) as we can trust the faithful Creator to keep the souls of those saints left behind for not being found abiding in Him.

You have no Scripture teaching believers are left behind. Not one.

And for the record, this has nothing to do with whether men were born again before Pentecost. I suggest you start a thread that deals with this topic and see if anyone bothers to join in. I have my doubts you will find even one person to see in the texts what you are seeing.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Again we see the distinction drawn between believers and unbelievers. Where do you see anything about believers falling away?

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Again, the text is clear. Christ, then those that are His at His coming. Not part of those that are His.

As I already mentioned, Paul teaches the Rapture will be everyone in the Body, first the dead, then those that remain, and nowhere in Scripture do we see the division you impose into it. Every text you try to use as a proof-text falls short of your view.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
While you, like many, see this as referring to born again believers losing their salvation, the context denies that.

If you notice there is a contrast between "Moses' Law" (the Covenant of Law, a prominent element of contrast throughout the Book) and the "Covenant sanctified by the Blood (death) of Christ.
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It is true there is a contrast between the Old and the New in Hebrews. In fact this is the biggest theme of the book showing how New is superior to the Old. But in this case, the contrast is on severity of apostasy. It is or it will be much worse in the New
[/QUOTE]

I am not just talking about the contrast found throughout Hebrews, I am talking about this specific passage and what that contrast means.

You derail yourself and overlook that the contrast is between those who rejected the Covenant of Law, and those rejecting the New Covenant, and have turned it's meaning into one that suits your doctrine.

It's really very simple, "Those who rejected Moses' Law died under two or three witnesses, how much worse do you suppose those who reject the New Covenant will be punished?"

Both groups are rejecters, Vooks.

In view is not born again believers in danger of losing salvation, but Hebrews in danger of not converting from the Law to the New Covenant.
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Like I have always told @Hark, making claims is one thing, demonstrating a scriptural basis is another. Let's have this proof
[/QUOTE]

I gave you more than enough Scripture with commentary as to context. You respond with very little. The Book is written to Hebrews, Vooks. And while believers are in view, the Writer does not imply that those who reject the New Covenant are believers, but those who will be punished like those who rejected the First Covenant, or, Covenant of Law (called Moses' Law).

Secondly, the action condemned is not terminology describing believers, but those who...

1. Tread under foot Christ;

2. Consider His death unholy (and this because they would view the sacrifices of the Law as holy, which they were, as the Law was God ordained);

3. Done despite, or, resisted the Spirit of Grace, which is precisely what we have been discussing: rejecting the Minjstry of the Comforter in revealing the truth for the purpose of conversion.
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Why is it not? Because you say so?[/QUOTE]

Not at all...because it is right there in the text, lol.

Can you seriously deny that any one of these points is not?

And that's all the time I have tonight. I have the rest of your reply ready and will get to it likely in the morning.


Continued...

 

[vooks]

The text does not say they, it says He.

Which is irrelevant. He,she,they,it..... He was sanctified. Only believers are said to be sanctified by the blood of the new covenant

Hebrews 10:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Two points I will make:

1. You are making those who trod underfoot Christ saved instead of rejecters as the text plainly states.

2. We already know what happens when it is the believer in view being sanctified:


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

Your logic is basically
1. They are perfected forever
2. Those perfected forever can't lose their life
3. He lost his life so he was not perfected forever

This is reading into the text. If the text says he was sanctified, that makes him a believer unless Jesus sanctifies hell fodder

This is something that will be understood through serious study and understanding of the passage. You will need to understand the rest of the passage in order to see that loss of salvation is not in the teaching of the Writer. And that is something you will never understand if you are predisposed to that view, it will not allow you to exegete the passage. There is more than enough in the previous post to show that in view are those who have rejected Christ and the New Covenant, and to make them born again believers conflicts with the teachings. You would have the Writer stating that believers are forever forgiven their sins, and then turning around and saying they have tread Christ underfoot, counted His Sacrifice unholy, and resisted the Holy Spirit.

It does not take serious study though that is commendable,it just takes you taking your own medicine of being open and suffering Holy Spirit to speak through layers of your theological castles.
It also takes dedicated ignorance to miss the plain meaning of the text

Just doesn't fit.

Of course it doesn't fit. That was my first impression. Then I pondered, 'exactly what is it that it doesn't fit?' My theology! So you too @Darrell C, it's your theology that it 'just doesn't fit', but hey, it's your theology to fit scriptures not the other way.

For the umpteenth time how come he is SANCTIFIED?
Or does this word mean something else?
Maybe it can if you wrestle its meaning and mound it around your theology ....just saying

My hope is one day you might understand that, but, this depends on you.


God bless.

My prayer is you take your own medicine before prescribing it to @Hark

 

[vooks]

I am not just talking about the contrast found throughout Hebrews, I am talking about this specific passage and what that contrast means.

The contrast is in the severity of the penalty for apostasy.

You derail yourself and overlook that the contrast is between those who rejected the Covenant of Law, and those rejecting the New Covenant, and have turned it's meaning into one that suits your doctrine

I don't have no doctrine sir, I'm just too honest with the subject text.
It is true , the contrast is in consequences of rejecting the covenants, but my point is in both, the rejectors were UNDER either covenant, that's why he was sanctified by the blood!

It's really very simple, "Those who rejected Moses' Law died under two or three witnesses, how much worse do you suppose those who reject the New Covenant will be punished?"

Both groups are rejecters, Vooks.

Yes it is this simple, but one can reject something they have never partaken in or they can reject something they've been part of. In this case, the NT rejector had gone deep enough to be SANCTIFIED. Means he was already regenerated. In the OT, before the penalty was meted out, all Israel had agreed to follow God so they were converts as well.

Again, the fact that he was SANCTIFIED is all I need to distinguish between somebody who has just been presented with the truth and somebody who has accepted the truth. The Word of God is what sanctifies, but it does not sanctify hearers,only those who believe!

I gave you more than enough Scripture with commentary as to context. You respond with very little.

That's because they serve very little in unraveling the subject text. The key word my brother is the guy was SANCTIFIED by the blood of the covenant.

If you could show me a single scripture remotely hinting at sanctification by the blood of sinners who never accepted NT, you'd have a point. I can look them up, memorize them in Greek, Aramaic, Strong's .....

The Book is written to Hebrews, Vooks.

Very true @Darrell C, it was written to Jewish Christians

And while believers are in view, the Writer does not imply that those who reject the New Covenant are believers, but those who will be punished like those who rejected the First Covenant, or, Covenant of Law (called Moses' Law).

This is funny, he does not imply?
What other words/phrases could he have used to imply so?
He calls him SANCTIFIED. This is a term reserved for Christians exclusively without no exception, so he implies exactly what you accuse him of not unless of course he was ignorant as to its usage. @Darrell C, was he ignorant? Care to teach him a thing or two?

Not at all...because it is right there in the text, lol.

Yes it is 'right there in the text' yet you can't show where

Can you seriously deny that any one of these points is not?

And that's all the time I have tonight. I have the rest of your reply ready and will get to it likely in the morning.


Continued...

Meditate on this; he was SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT

 

[Hark]

You would not be the first one, lol.

You don't seem to have understood what I was saying. I am not saying that erroneous doctrine is okay.

Why do you think I am here? lol

I take erroneous doctrine very seriously, which is why I debate doctrine. However, what I am saying is that believers who do have erroneous doctrine does not equate to them being unbelievers.

What I am sharing is that erroneous doctrine can void faith. They are not quite unbelievers, but believers that have voided faith by their erroneous doctrine which denies Him in that faith.

And every proof text you offer clearly presents the two types of people in the world: believers and unbelievers.

Sometimes, not everything is that clearly noticed.

In the first quote Christ does not know them. If you want to make them believers go ahead, but it conflicts with Scripture.

It does not conflict with scripture. Saved believers will have faith and then fall away from that faith ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ) Any work that denies Him is the same as the worker of iniquity denying Him ( Titus 1:15-16 )

Matthew 7:21-23 is about all those believers in those movements of the Spirit where they fall down in ( Matthew 7:24-27 ) This happens when they broaden the way in the worship place by including the worship of the Holy Spirit with the Father and the Son ( Matthew 7:13-16 ) so that when seducing spirits come in, they think that was the Holy Spirit coming to visit them with signs when it is not. Then they address the Holy Spirit in worship and invoke Him to come again and it happens again, but it is not the Holy Spirit answering those prayers ( John 14:13-14 ) and so when Jesus says this ( John 14:6 ) He meant that the Son is the only way any one can approach God the Father in worship to honor Him ( John 5:23 ) because there are seducing spirits in the world. There is no going around the Son in worship or prayer ( John 10:1 ) The solution is to narrow the way back to seeking the face of the Bridegroom in worship ( Luke 13:24 ) or else ( Luke 13:25-30 )

These saved believer did not know that by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again after a sign ( Matthew 12:39 & 2 Corinthians 11:1-4 ) they were disqualifying themselves from the Marriage Supper by voiding faith that He is in them by that work of iniquity ( 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) and being like those five foolish virgins out in the market place seeking to fill their lamps with oil ( the Holy Spirit ) while those that are not chasing after spirits to receive for a sign are ready & abiding in Him to be received by the Bridegroom.

Those saved believers can repent still before the Bridegroom comes by putting away profane and vain babbling and pray normally so that they may know what they had prayed for to give the Father genuine thanks for answered prayers, chase no more after those spirits for a sign, and rest in Him that they have been filled since coming to and believing in Jesus Christ as a testimony that they are saved. Matthew 9:17 & John 6:35

However, once that door is shut to the Marriage Supper, they can only be resurrected later by Him as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

Of course, there are other kinds of iniquity that can get a saved believer denied. FYI Saved believers need His help for discernment and His strength to depart from that iniquity too.

 

[Hark]

In the second quote the context is on which deals with Israel, not the Church. The Church is not even created at this time. The context is also one of Christ's Return, and the Rapture of the Church does not take place at that time.

Jesus has chosen His disciples, and although the Church was not created at the time and neither were His chosen disciples saved yet when He has not ascended to the Father to send the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost for all those that believe even in His name, His words in Luke 12:40-49 were for those that would be His disciples as Peter did questioned that ( Luke 12:41 )

The punishment for not being ready is to be cast off to have their portion with unbelievers in that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth; and that "portion" is a terrestrial inheritance that is coming for those saints to be resurrected out of the great tribulation as well as for that generation yet to be born for the milleniel reign of Christ.

How can those coming out of the great tribulation be like the angels that never die when they and that coming generation are to eat from the tree of life that is in the city that comes down from Heaven?

How can they that are resurrected out of the great tribulation, reign as kings and priests unless they are spread out all over the world?

Then the elect, the firstfruits, are the ones received to that place in the city; in the Father's mansion at the pre trib rapture event that will never die, and never marry.

And for those resurrected out of the great tribulation, in order to reign by example for the coming milleniel generation, they would have to lead by example and marry to have families to manage their own house so they can prove that they can handle the people in the kingdom of God as it was required of the bishops and deacons for the N.T. churches.

1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

And yet the elect living in that City of Zion ( New Jerusalem ) will be proclaiming and rejoicing in sharing the wonderful works of God in everything in that city, including what He has done for the elect, as they are made liken unto angels that never die; that vessel unto honor in His House that is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus.

So do I question whether you are a believer because you err? No, I simply acknowledge that you are learning.

I believe as long as you are abiding in Him in the faith in Jesus Christ by His grace & by His help, even with this view that you have, you will see yourself as the elder son that was obedient in doing everything that the father had asked, wondering why everybody is celebrating over his brother whom was the prodigal son that gave up his "inheritance" for wild living, treating his brother like an unbeliever. The father says something to the elder son that the prodigal son does not have; the Father says that all that he has was the elder son's, but he was to celebrate for his lost brother is still his son and has come home.

 

[Darrell C]

In view is not born again believers in danger of losing salvation, but Hebrews in danger of not converting from the Law to the New Covenant.
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Like I have always told @Hark, making claims is one thing, demonstrating a scriptural basis is another. Let's have this proof

2 Peter 2:1, is between those who rejected the First Covenant, and those that reject the New Covenant.
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And the assumption is believers can't be false teachers nor reject the New Covenant, right?[/QUOTE]

That is correct: believers cannot be false teachers.

Believers can teach false doctrine, but they cannot be both believers and false believers.

In Hebrews we see that those who are rejecting are in view, that is just basic. Yet you have them saved...then treading Christ underfoot, counting the Sacrifice unholy, and resisting the Holy Ghost.

You refuse to let your loss of salvation mentality allow you to draw out of the text what is being taught.

Believers do not resist the Holy Ghost, they grieve the Holy Ghost.

Hebrews 10:18
King James Version (KJV)

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


Compare with...


Hebrews 10:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
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Great verses

But did you understand why they were given?

The first statement is a positive statement: when one is forgiven...there is no more need for sacrifice.

The second is a negative: if one rejects it, there is no other sacrifice they can turn to. And the audience in view are Hebrews clearly being taught the distinctions between the Covenant of Law (and its sacrifices (plural)) and the New Covenant and it's Sacrifice (singular).

Hebrews 10:1-4). They could not make the "comer thereunto complete," or, those sacrifices had to be offered over and over due to the incomplete nature of those offerings. The blood of bulls and goats could not take away sins, but, the sacrifice of Christ does., as promised in regards to the day when God when create a New Covenant to replace the old.
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Agreed. Christ's sacrifice is all-sufficient
Hebrews 10:26-29
King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
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The author is comparing OT apostasy with NT apostasy. NT will be worse. That blood which saved them will not only be unavailable but the judgement and indignation will be harsh and it will be executed by God Himself not men!

And this is something not true of those sanctified by Christ: there is no more necessity for sacrifice because they have been made complete by the Once Offered Christ, meaning, just as the Promise written into the New Covenant states...sins are forgiven and remembered no more. But you will need to study Hebrews in order to understand this. If you are predisposed to make a text teach loss of salvation, that is what your heart is going to see.

The passage does not contrast the judgment of believers under the Law and unbelievers concerning the New Covenant, it contrasts unbelievers from both.

Hebrews 10
King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The simple truth is to point out, as he does in Chapter 9, that the Law was only figure, shadow, parable. It could not make the worshipper (offerer) complete, which speaks of completion, bringing something to it's end. He makes it clear that those sacrifices could not take away sins.
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You know @Darrell C, there are many points we could contrast the OLD and the NEW. On the subject verse(s), apostasy attracts a much harsher judgement. It takes copious amounts of denial to miss this

The passage is not comparing apostasy with rejection of the New Covenant, it is comparing the judgment itself. The action is the same...rejection of the will of God. Under the Law, they were put to death for despising Moses' Law. Now that the New Covenant has been established, they are judged more severely for despising Christ, His Sacrifice, and resisting the Spirit of Grace.

Both groups are unbelieving rejecters.

Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Now see what he says about Christ's Sacrifice:


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


This is actually the clearest, simplest attestation to the eternality of salvation in Scripture, in my view, and it is ironic this passage is used to teach the exact opposite of what the writer is teaching.
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Ah the perfected/perfection clincher!

And you admit that you do not know what this means.

It's very simple, Vooks, the word translated "perfection" means "completion."

Now look at Hebrews 10:10-14 again, and note that the context contrasts the services of the Levitical Priesthood, which it has already said in Hebrews 10:1-4 "could not make perfect/complete." But the Sacrifice of Christ does make complete, and that is...forever.

Believers are sanctified once ("For all" is a KJV insertion, it is not in the original language), and those that are sanctified have forgiveness for ever.

Secondly, we see a theme of perfection throughout Hebrews.

In Hebrews 6:1, after telling his audience (Hebrews) that they are ignorant of the Word they had (The Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures (see Hebrews 5:10-14)), he tells them to "go on unto perfection:"


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


Look at the link.

The problem is that you conflate Christ's perfect sacrifice with eternal security.

That is because this is what we are taught in Scripture.

That is what this...


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Now you are denying this, so it is up to you to give the proper interpretation.

The context is dealing directly with sacrifice for sin. Those of the Law were incomplete and could not take away sins (and the whole point of sacrifice for sin was atonement), but Christ's brings forgiveness that is for ever.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Of those sanctified and perfected forever is one who stares at sore punishment, judgement and indignation because he persists in sin-v27

Not "sore," but unimaginably "sorer" punishment.

And what you are doing is trying to make the text say that in view are those who rejected Moses' Law and Born Again Believers who sin.

It is a corruption of the teaching.

In view are rejecters from both Eras, and the punishment for rejecting Christ is far worse, because it is the revelation of God's will for man.

Obviously whatever perfected means, it does not absolve willful sinners of a sore punishment

My hope is one day you will understand what the writer means when he speaks about perfection/completion.

It's right there for you to see, but you will have to learn to exegete the passages apart from predisposition.

Start at the beginning of Hebrews 10 and understand the first four verses before trying to go any further. The point is that the Law, the Covenant, and it's sacrifices were only shadow/parable, not the reality they represented which is found in Christ. The sacrifices offered up in Old Testament Economies pictured the Sacrifice of Christ which would take place at the appointed time. Those sacrifices were temporary and temporal, and while they did bestow atonement for sin, they had to be offered again (daily), because they could not take away sin.

Now think about it: what the Writer is saying is that Christ's Sacrifice does take away sin, and in view is the penalty for sin. And he does not just say it takes away sin, but it states it takes it away forever.

And that is the promise of God in regards to the New Covenant.


Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Hebrews 8:8-12

King James Version (KJV)

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Again we see the contrast between the Two Covenants and their services, the prominent focus being that of Christ's Sacrifice and what it accomplished, which what the offering of the Levitical Priesthood could not do...take away sins. Now we understand that context by including everything he teaches in this chapter, and thus we see that the perfection/completion in view is directly addressing remission of sins. This is why Christ had to die once, contrasted with the daily service of the Law.

If you keep reading you will see that once again the Promise of the New Covenant is mentioned:


The point being that in view is the realization of the promise, which teaches that when one receives remission of sins through Christ...there is no more offering for sin. But it is a positive statement, not a negative. It is not saying "Hey, there's only one chance to be forgiven," but rather, he is teaching when we receive remission of sins we are made compete/perfect in regards to remission of sins for ever.

And that is a long time, Vooks.

Continued...
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Great promises but no sacrifice for willful sins but a sore punishment.


[/QUOTE]

And because your mind sees believers in view, you cannot understand the context.

The sin in view is described in vv.28-29:


Hebrews 10:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Until you acknowledge that those in danger of sorer punishment are contrasted with the rejecters of the Covenant of Law, you will never understand this passage.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

In the first quote, it is their faith, not their salvation which the false professors overthrow. Big difference.

Correct, but.... don't you consider the wedding garment of a believer is his faith in Him? So being at the Marriage Supper without his faith does what?

Matthew 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests. 11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment: 12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

They would get kicked out.

In regards to Evolution being a cause of people losing faith, apparently you have not spent much time talking to Theistic Evolutionists. It has nothing to do with their beliefs on a soteriological level. They still believe in the Bible, just not the Young Earth Creationist/Conservative/Historical interpretation.

I know about Theistic Evolutionists, but I was referring to another example of how saved believers can have their faith overthrown that do not believe any more and yet He still abides.

In the second quote you still miss the fact that not all believers hold the same position in the Body. This has nothing to do with the Rapture, and it has nothing to do with the difference between believers and unbelievers. What the text does say is that depending on the obedience of believers to sanctify themselves, they will either be vessels unto honor or vessels unto dishonor, but they will still be in the House.

Continued...

And yet it was failing to look to the author & finisher of our faith to depart from that iniquity is why they are vessels unto dishonor in His House.

And so if Paul was following the Lord's commandment to admonish an unrepentant fornicating brother by excommunicating him from the assembly to hold that feast of fellowship without eating with a brother that lives in unrepentant sinful lifestyle, what do you think God will do to those in that same spiritual state at the Marriage Supper?

1 Corinthians 5:11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

1 Corinthians 5:
4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Reads to me that God will cast the unrepentant brother into the great tribulation when Satan will wage war on the left behind saints for the destruction of the flesh.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

The wages of sin is death. God is not mocked. Anyone defiling the temple of God, him, God will destroy with physical death since our body is that temple. It is not a loss of salvation, but a loss of being received as that vessel unto honor in His House. There is time for all saved believers to repent by looking to the author & finisher of our faith to help every saved believer to depart from iniquity to be ready to go when the Bridegroom comes... or else.

 

[Hark]

That is correct: believers cannot be false teachers.

Believers can teach false doctrine, but they cannot be both believers and false believers.

2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 testifies of wicked and unreasonable men not having faith and not walking after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly as a result ( think confusion of the movements of the "Spirit" which was the iniquity Paul talked about in the previous chapter as that falling away from the faith ) and yet Paul does not call them unbelievers or the enemy, but as brothers still, which we are to withdraw from when they are unrepentant.

In Hebrews we see that those who are rejecting are in view, that is just basic. Yet you have them saved...then treading Christ underfoot, counting the Sacrifice unholy, and resisting the Holy Ghost.

It is still written that God will judge "His" people.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated.........

Here is Paul reminding these offenders the gospel that they were illuminated by so that they may repent from taking communion in an unworthy manner other than to be done in remembrance of Him only.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
In the second quote the context is on which deals with Israel, not the Church. The Church is not even created at this time. The context is also one of Christ's Return, and the Rapture of the Church does not take place at that time.
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Jesus has chosen His disciples, and although the Church was not created at the time and neither were His chosen disciples saved yet when He has not ascended to the Father to send the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost for all those that believe even in His name, His words in Luke 12:40-49 were for those that would be His disciples as Peter did questioned that ( Luke 12:41 )

This does not really address what I have said here.

You have a view that born again believers are left behind, yet the only passages you can use to support this...do not even deal with the Rapture. They deal with the Return of Christ, which has at least seven years separating the two events.


Luke 12:40-49

King James Version (KJV)

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?


This has a primary reference to Israel, not the Church. This refers to the Return, not the Rapture. Those who receive stripes are appointed their portion with unbelievers, so unless you want to teach a Purgatorial concept, you are forced to acknowledge that in view are not believers left behind, but unbelievers who will be Goats at the Sheep and Goat judgment.

The punishment for not being ready is to be cast off to have their portion with unbelievers in that hour of temptation that shall try all upon the earth; and that "portion" is a terrestrial inheritance that is coming for those saints to be resurrected out of the great tribulation as well as for that generation yet to be born for the milleniel reign of Christ.

Only unbelievers enter the Tribulation.

When you can find a passage in Scripture that denies both dead and living believers are caught up, let me know.

And again, there is no Terrestrial Inheritance, Paul simply distinguishes between "bodies" in 1 Corinthians 15. While I believe that the Tribulation Martyrs that are raised from the dead will interact with the living population, we again distinguish this period with the Rapture. The Rapture occurs prior to the beginning of the Tribulation, whereas the Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of it.

How can those coming out of the great tribulation be like the angels that never die when they and that coming generation are to eat from the tree of life that is in the city that comes down from Heaven?

There are two groups "coming out of the Tribulation:" believers, and unbelievers.

These are physically alive, not glorified, and stand at the Sheep and Goat Judgment. The Sheep enter into the Kingdom physically alive, thus are not "like the Angels," and the Goats enter into everlasting punishment, because they have sealed their fate in rejecting the Gospel.

How can they that are resurrected out of the great tribulation, reign as kings and priests unless they are spread out all over the world?

Not really relevant to the Rapture or anything we have been discussing.

I have never said they weren't.

Then the elect, the firstfruits,

While the firstfruits are indeed Elect, that doesn't mean all of the Elect are firstfruits. The Church is the firstfruits, because they are glorified (made like Christ) at the Rapture. When we look into the Kingdom we will see there w3ill be those not yet glorified living in that Kingdom, and at this time it is the Church of this Age and the Tribulation Martyrs who are glorified, though the Tribulation Martyrs could be debated, seeing the Curse is lifted to some extent, and long life is a characteristic of the Kingdom. But it is best to see the glorified, in my view, because it is called the First Resurrection, "first" being a reference, not to sequence, but to rank, and is contrasted with the resurrection unto damnation, rather than being the first resurrection which takes place.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

are the ones received to that place in the city; in the Father's mansion at the pre trib rapture event that will never die, and never marry.

And this is completely irrelevant to what you are trying to teach: yes, the firstfruits are caught up and go to be with Christ in that City (Currently in Heaven). But this has nothing to do with the Return at the End of the Tribulation, nor is there the first passage that even hints at believers being left behind and missing the Rapture. All passages that speak of "not entering" are Kingdom passages which take place at the Return of Christ.

You will need to supply something that is relevant to the Church, not Israel, nor Tribulation believers.

And for those resurrected out of the great tribulation, in order to reign by example for the coming milleniel generation, they would have to lead by example and marry to have families to manage their own house so they can prove that they can handle the people in the kingdom of God as it was required of the bishops and deacons for the N.T. churches.

No-one is resurrected "out of the Tribulation" with the exception of the Two Witnesses.

Among believers there are those who die in the Tribulation and those who live through it. Those who die are resurrected at the end of the Tribulation, and those who live through it are the Sheep of Matthew 25.

1 Timothy 3:1 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity; 5 (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

Completely irrelevant.

This teaching is specific to the Church in this Age.

And yet the elect living in that City of Zion ( New Jerusalem ) will be proclaiming and rejoicing in sharing the wonderful works of God in everything in that city, including what He has done for the elect, as they are made liken unto angels that never die; that vessel unto honor in His House that is the eternal glory that comes with our salvation in Christ Jesus.

And the entire Church, both living and dead, who were Raptured are those who are taken there prior to the Tribulation.

So do I question whether you are a believer because you err? No, I simply acknowledge that you are learning.
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I believe as long as you are abiding in Him in the faith in Jesus Christ by His grace & by His help, even with this view that you have, you will see yourself as the elder son that was obedient in doing everything that the father had asked, wondering why everybody is celebrating over his brother whom was the prodigal son that gave up his "inheritance" for wild living, treating his brother like an unbeliever. The father says something to the elder son that the prodigal son does not have; the Father says that all that he has was the elder son's, but he was to celebrate for his lost brother is still his son and has come home.

I have no clue as to what you are trying to say here, lol.

The simple truth is that the teaching in John 15 speaks to a future time for the disciples when they are exhorted to stay in Christ. The ones abiding will be those who opt for Christ as opposed to remaining in the vine that is not the True Vine, which is basically Israel, the Law, that means of relationship to God provided in that Age.

But, if one is predisposed to believe and teach that salvation can be lost, and that born again believers can somehow be unborn again, then they simply will not give attention to the particular contexts their proof-texts present.

So tell me this, Hark, what contrasts the True Vine?

Did the Disciples abide? And I mean immediately after this teaching.

It is true we abide in Christ, and His teaching is specific, those who do invariably produce fruit, which negates a possibility of believers being cut out. We will see those who are cut out, and again...they are of Israel, not the Church. The disciples would not be born again believers until Pentecost, which might be better understood if this thread actually had participants who were interested in discussing the OP, lol.


God bless.