Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost? *for all Christians

[Hark]

This does not really address what I have said here.

You have a view that born again believers are left behind, yet the only passages you can use to support this...do not even deal with the Rapture. They deal with the Return of Christ, which has at least seven years separating the two events.

Luke 12:40-49

King James Version (KJV)

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

It is here that you have to discern of Jesus is speaking to the Israelites or to His disciples that believe in Him, because Peter did ask that question in verse 41.

I would say that Jesus was speaking to His disciples and therefore to you and me as that "faithful steward" below.

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

Remember that part about the father speaking to the elder son in having everything that he has? That should speak to what the prodigal son will not have.

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

That means being left behind for not abiding in Him as His disciple.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Are stripes given to someone no longer His servants? No. Then those left behind being punished are His.

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

That fire will burn up a third of the earth, the entire western hemisphere, after the pre trib rapture and after the angel informs every one of the everlasting gospel, but before the angel warns every one of the consequence of having the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire.

That is how the hour of temptation will be set up to try all upon the earth in the face of the coming great tribulation.

This has a primary reference to Israel, not the Church. This refers to the Return, not the Rapture. Those who receive stripes are appointed their portion with unbelievers, so unless you want to teach a Purgatorial concept, you are forced to acknowledge that in view are not believers left behind, but unbelievers who will be Goats at the Sheep and Goat judgment.

Although you have shown me how the goats were unbelievers in Matthew 25 th chapter, that is not what Luke 12:40-49 is about.

Only unbelievers enter the Tribulation.

God be willing, we will both find out soon enough, brother.

When you can find a passage in Scripture that denies both dead and living believers are caught up, let me know.

2 Timothy 2:11-13

And again, there is no Terrestrial Inheritance, Paul simply distinguishes between "bodies" in 1 Corinthians 15. While I believe that the Tribulation Martyrs that are raised from the dead will interact with the living population, we again distinguish this period with the Rapture. The Rapture occurs prior to the beginning of the Tribulation, whereas the Tribulation Martyrs are raised at the end of it.

Again, God be willing, we shall soon find out, brother.

There are two groups "coming out of the Tribulation:" believers, and unbelievers.

These are physically alive, not glorified, and stand at the Sheep and Goat Judgment. The Sheep enter into the Kingdom physically alive, thus are not "like the Angels," and the Goats enter into everlasting punishment, because they have sealed their fate in rejecting the Gospel.

I believe that the judgment given in Matthew 25 regarding the sheep and the goats is at the end of the milleniel reign and after the last defeat of Satan when he has been cast into the lake of fire.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I doubt there will be any unbelievers going into His kingdom in the end when sin and death has been done away with to the lake of fire too.

 

[Darrell C]

Darrell C said: ↑
That is correct: believers cannot be false teachers.

Believers can teach false doctrine, but they cannot be both believers and false believers.
Click to expand...

2 Thessalonians 3:1-7,14-15 testifies of wicked and unreasonable men not having faith and not walking after the traditions taught of us and are disorderly as a result ( think confusion of the movements of the "Spirit" which was the iniquity Paul talked about in the previous chapter as that falling away from the faith ) and yet Paul does not call them unbelievers or the enemy, but as brothers still, which we are to withdraw from when they are unrepentant.

Hebrews 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 32 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated.........

Here is Paul reminding these offenders the gospel that they were illuminated by so that they may repent from taking communion in an unworthy manner other than to be done in remembrance of Him only.

Consider that the Writer is quoting the Hebrew Scriptures. Why does He do that?

Because it is to the Hebrews he is speaking.

I have never denied that the Church will be judged, they will be, that goes without saying, but, that doesn't mean we misconstrue the context of Chapter 10, which makes it clear that we are, when sanctified by the Blood (Sacrifice) of Christ, made complete for ever in regards to sacrifice for sin.

The context deals with those who draw near but then reject.

He makes it clear concerning those who are not guilty of rejecting Christ, and their future state...


Hebrews 10:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


The L.O.S.T. (loss of salvation teachers) invariably take passages and make believers out of those who are clearly not believers. Despite the Writer, thus the Holy Ghost, speaking in incontrovertible terms that Christ has obtained eternal redemption for us, that His Sacrifice brings about remission of sins in completion, and that we do not draw back unto perdition because we live by faith...

...still this is denied.

And despite Peter clearly drawing a parallel between false prophets under Old Testament Economies with false teachers in this Age, and both He and Jude stating their damnation is constant...

...still the attempt to make believers into unbelievers is made.

That is simply amazing. Why, do we think, this happens?


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Consider that the Writer is quoting the Hebrew Scriptures. Why does He do that?

Because it is to the Hebrews he is speaking.

To Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, which would pertains to all believers as well.

How do you guys tag someone to a post?

 

[vooks]

That is correct: believers cannot be false teachers.

Believers can teach false doctrine, but they cannot be both believers and false believers.

And why can't they be? They may have started true and ended up false!
This makes tons of sense seeing they had 'ESCAPED from pollution' and are entangled in it AGAIN. It means they had been tangled, disentangled and then now they are entangled AGAIN.

This is also the whole point of the dog going back to the vomit...must have vomited something...the pig must have been washed off something

In Hebrews we see that those who are rejecting are in view, that is just basic. Yet you have them saved...then treading Christ underfoot, counting the Sacrifice unholy, and resisting the Holy Ghost.

@Darrell C,
It's not me who have them saved but Holy Spirit who tells us they were SANCTIFIED by the blood. Isn't it shocking that the sanctified can trod the very thing that sanctified them underfoot? Little wonder there is a sore punishment awaiting them

You refuse to let your loss of salvation mentality allow you to draw out of the text what is being taught.

There is no 'loss of salvation mentality' @Darrell C, just faithfulness to the text. It's the text that calls them sanctified by the blood and you are ignoring that.

Believers do not resist the Holy Ghost, they grieve the Holy Ghost.

Semantics bro. These guys were sanctified by the blood. Period

But did you understand why they were given?

The first statement is a positive statement: when one is forgiven...there is no more need for sacrifice.

The second is a negative: if one rejects it, there is no other sacrifice they can turn to. And the audience in view are Hebrews clearly being taught the distinctions between the Covenant of Law (and its sacrifices (plural)) and the New Covenant and it's Sacrifice (singular).

Makes the warning pointless if the believer is already forgiven apostasy. The warning is moot

And this is something not true of those sanctified by Christ: there is no more necessity for sacrifice because they have been made complete by the Once Offered Christ, meaning, just as the Promise written into the New Covenant states...sins are forgiven and remembered no more. But you will need to study Hebrews in order to understand this. If you are predisposed to make a text teach loss of salvation, that is what your heart is going to see.

My brother, if you are predisposed to deny the simple and plain inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that's what your heart will see. But while your heart sees what it wants, you mutilate scriptures beyond recognition

The passage does not contrast the judgment of believers under the Law and unbelievers concerning the New Covenant, it contrasts unbelievers from both.

That's half a truth. Yes in both cases they are unbelievers. The important half other truth you are ignoring is that these unbelievers WERE believers. In the NT case, they were SANCTIFIED by the Blood. Are sinners sanctified but they be regenerated?

The passage is not comparing apostasy with rejection of the New Covenant, it is comparing the judgment itself.

True, but judgement of what? Of apostasy which is to depart from the truth once delivered

The action is the same...rejection of the will of God. Under the Law, they were put to death for despising Moses' Law. Now that the New Covenant has been established, they are judged more severely for despising Christ, His Sacrifice, and resisting the Spirit of Grace.

Both groups are unbelieving rejecters.

Continued...

But in NT, they reject something that SANCTIFIED him. This can only...and I mean ONLY imply they were believers. Truth presented to a sinner does not sanctified him except he believes/accepts it

 

[vooks]

And you admit that you do not know what this means.

It's very simple, Vooks, the word translated "perfection" means "completion."

And I'm telling you regardless of its meaning, a sanctified man trampling underfoot the blood is staring at a sore punishment. The definition and meaning of perfection does not change none of this...that's my point

Now look at Hebrews 10:10-14 again, and note that the context contrasts the services of the Levitical Priesthood, which it has already said in Hebrews 10:1-4 "could not make perfect/complete." But the Sacrifice of Christ does make complete, and that is...forever.

Irrelevant. A sanctified man faces a sore punishment and indignation. A SANCTIFIED man

Believers are sanctified once ("For all" is a KJV insertion, it is not in the original language), and those that are sanctified have forgiveness for ever.

You may digress all day and night but nothing changes the fact that there is a warning that sanctified men face judgement for trampling underfoot the blood of the covenant

Secondly, we see a theme of perfection throughout Hebrews.

In Hebrews 6:1, after telling his audience (Hebrews) that they are ignorant of the Word they had (The Old Testament/Hebrew Scriptures (see Hebrews 5:10-14)), he tells them to "go on unto perfection:"


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

You are digressing. Does any of what you say mean the man was not SANCTIFIED by the blood of the covenant?

Look at the link.




That is because this is what we are taught in Scripture.

That is what this...


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Now you are denying this, so it is up to you to give the proper interpretation.

The context is dealing directly with sacrifice for sin. Those of the Law were incomplete and could not take away sins (and the whole point of sacrifice for sin was atonement), but Christ's brings forgiveness that is for ever.


Continued...

The man in question was SANCTIFIED. Is this true or false?

 

[Darrell C]

Luke 12:40-49

King James Version (KJV)

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.

41 Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all?

It is here that you have to discern of Jesus is speaking to the Israelites or to His disciples that believe in Him, because Peter did ask that question in verse 41.

I would say that Jesus was speaking to His disciples and therefore to you and me as that "faithful steward" below.

You create two groups when in view is only one, which is all inclusive. The Lord is speaking to all.

One reason is that Peter and the disciples are at this time unregenerate and not members of the Church.

The teaching is specific to Israel and by extension those who witness the sings of that generation.

42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

Remember that part about the father speaking to the elder son in having everything that he has? That should speak to what the prodigal son will not have.

And this has no relevance.

The Prodigal Son fits within a context of Israel and her relationship with God. It is not speaking of a member of the Church, for our inheritance is never removed:


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


The failure to properly place the Lord's earthly Ministry into a proper context is why we have so many disputes among denominations. A blending and merging of teachings results in a confused and erroneous doctrinal pattern which is easily rectified if we simply pay attention to context.

You are using passages teaching about the Kingdom to bolster Rapture views you have, and specific teachings concerning Church discipline as well.

The "son" in view is Israel, who was in a state of destruction when the Lord came:


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


Matthew 15:23-24

King James Version (KJV)

23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.

24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


The word translated "the lost" is the same word we see here:


Matthew 10:28

King James Version (KJV)

28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


Now, will you equally say that this refers to the Church? Can we say of the Body of Christ they are in a state of destruction? Will God destroy the first member of the Body of Christ in Hell?

So we have to properly place these teachings within their context, rather than merge and blend them without distinction.

The prodigal son can have application in lesson to the Body, but we do not neglect the context of the teaching and it's primary intent, which is to illustrate Israel's state.

Now a question: what does the Lord mean when He states "I am come to the Lost Sheep of Israel...only."


Continued...

 

[vooks]

Not "sore," but unimaginably "sorer" punishment.

And what you are doing is trying to make the text say that in view are those who rejected Moses' Law and Born Again Believers who sin.

It is a corruption of the teaching.

The text is clear enough for the simple and those with ears; a man sanctified by the blood of the covenant faces judgement and indignation @Darrell C....true/false?

Is he SANCTIFIED?
Are sinners SANCTIFIED?

In view are rejecters from both Eras, and the punishment for rejecting Christ is far worse, because it is the revelation of God's will for man.

It is worse ESPECIALLY because he was SANCTIFIED

My hope is one day you will understand what the writer means when he speaks about perfection/completion.

It's right there for you to see, but you will have to learn to exegete the passages apart from predisposition.

My prayer is that you will open your mind to the Truth and drop your biases. A man SANCTIFIED @Darrell C....Are you sanctified?

Start at the beginning of Hebrews 10 and understand the first four verses before trying to go any further. The point is that the Law, the Covenant, and it's sacrifices were only shadow/parable, not the reality they represented which is found in Christ. The sacrifices offered up in Old Testament Economies pictured the Sacrifice of Christ which would take place at the appointed time. Those sacrifices were temporary and temporal, and while they did bestow atonement for sin, they had to be offered again (daily), because they could not take away sin.

Let me assume you are well read inHebrews 10 than myself and better than I'll ever be if I read it 1000 times. Explain to me what it means that the man is SANCTIFIED

Now think about it: what the Writer is saying is that Christ's Sacrifice does take away sin, and in view is the penalty for sin. And he does not just say it takes away sin, but it states it takes it away forever.

And that is the promise of God in regards to the New Covenant.


Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version (KJV)

31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Hebrews 8:8-12

King James Version (KJV)

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

As I predicted, a sober discussion is reduced to proof texting. Let's stick to Hebrews 10, and specifically answer this.
1. Is the subject SANCTIFIED by the blood?
2. What does it mean that he is SANCTIFIED?

And because your mind sees believers in view, you cannot understand the context.

The sin in view is described in vv.28-29:


Hebrews 10:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Until you acknowledge that those in danger of sorer punishment are contrasted with the rejecters of the Covenant of Law, you will never understand this passage.


God bless.

@Darrell C,
Hebrews 10:25 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

HE WAS SANCTIFIED.

Do you like Grundem want to blow off your feet by claiming that the sanctification here is ceremonial?Roflmao

 

[Darrell C]

45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

That means being left behind for not abiding in Him as His disciple.

It means what is in the text: they are appointed their portion with the unbelievers and in every teaching this is a reference to eternal damnation.

Every single one.

Yet you are making them born again believers.

47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.

48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Are stripes given to someone no longer His servants? No. Then those left behind being punished are His.

In view is simply the fact that judgment will vary in severity for unbelievers, just as judgment varies for believers. The difference is that no teaching in regards to the Redeemed implies a possibility of eternal damnation.

49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?

That fire will burn up a third of the earth, the entire western hemisphere, after the pre trib rapture and after the angel informs every one of the everlasting gospel, but before the angel warns every one of the consequence of having the mark of the beast which is the lake of fire.

That is how the hour of temptation will be set up to try all upon the earth in the face of the coming great tribulation.

Nothing in Revelation points to "the Western Hemisphere."

Just not in Scripture.

Although you have shown me how the goats were unbelievers in Matthew 25 th chapter, that is not what Luke 12:40-49 is about.

That is precisely what it is referring to: the Goats are appointed their portion with the unbelievers. They go into everlasting punishment.

This is dealing with the Return of Christ, not the Rapture, and we know that because the Rapture is a Mystery...

...revealed by Paul, not the Lord.

God be willing, we will both find out soon enough, brother.

That is simply not good enough, Hark: we have been given His Word for the express purpose that we know...now.

We can know that everyone in the Church is Raptured, both dead and alive.

We can know if a passage is speaking about believers or unbelievers.

And we can know that the Lord was not revealing truth that would only be revealed when the Comforter came. Even that which He did teach the disciples that was relevant to the Church Age required the Comforter for remembrance and understanding.


John 14:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


Most will miss the prophetic nature of John 14-16, and there is no reason for this.

2 Timothy 2:11-13



Again, God be willing, we shall soon find out, brother.



I believe that the judgment given in Matthew 25 regarding the sheep and the goats is at the end of the milleniel reign and after the last defeat of Satan when he has been cast into the lake of fire.

While we know Prophecy has multiple fulfillment at times, and I would agree this has an application to the end of the Kingdom, that does not nullify the actual context of the passage.

What you are saying is that Christ is teaching about His Return in the previous chapter then skips teaching about His Return and jumps to the end of the Millennial Kingdom...which has not yet been revealed to men, and will not until John writes about it many years later.

The Sheep and Goat Judgment takes place at the Return of Christ.

At the end of the Millennial Kingdom we do not have the Sheep and Goat Judgment, in which the believers survive physically, we have the Great White Throne Judgment, and the physical Universe has already passed away.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:...46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I doubt there will be any unbelievers going into His kingdom in the end when sin and death has been done away with to the lake of fire too.

Again you blend teachings which result in confusion.

The Sheep remain physically alive to enter the Kingdom.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The text is clear enough for the simple and those with ears; a man sanctified by the blood of the covenant faces judgement and indignation @Darrell C....true/false?

Is he SANCTIFIED?

Are sinners SANCTIFIED?

It is worse ESPECIALLY because he was SANCTIFIED

My prayer is that you will open your mind to the Truth and drop your biases. A man SANCTIFIED @Darrell C....Are you sanctified?

Let me assume you are well read inHebrews 10 than myself and better than I'll ever be if I read it 1000 times. Explain to me what it means that the man is SANCTIFIED

As I predicted, a sober discussion is reduced to proof texting. Let's stick to Hebrews 10, and specifically answer this.
1. Is the subject SANCTIFIED by the blood?
2. What does it mean that he is SANCTIFIED?


@Darrell C,
Hebrews 10:25 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

HE WAS SANCTIFIED.

The text is clear enough for the simple and those with ears; a man sanctified by the blood of the covenant faces judgement and indignation @Darrell C....true/false?

Is he SANCTIFIED?
Are sinners SANCTIFIED?

It is worse ESPECIALLY because he was SANCTIFIED

My prayer is that you will open your mind to the Truth and drop your biases. A man SANCTIFIED @Darrell C....Are you sanctified?


Let me assume you are well read inHebrews 10 than myself and better than I'll ever be if I read it 1000 times. Explain to me what it means that the man is SANCTIFIED


As I predicted, a sober discussion is reduced to proof texting. Let's stick to Hebrews 10, and specifically answer this.
1. Is the subject SANCTIFIED by the blood?
2. What does it mean that he is SANCTIFIED?


@Darrell C,
Hebrews 10:25 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

HE WAS SANCTIFIED.

Do you like Grundem want to blow off your feet by claiming that the sanctification here is ceremonial?Roflmao

There is no sanctification in view for those rejecting Christ, as explained in detail in the posts. But you are ignoring what is said.

Therefore, tell me how the Writer of Hebrews can say both those sanctified by Christ's Sacrifice are forgiven forever and...rejecting Christ?

The warning is to Hebrews who draw back, but, those who do not forsake the assembling of the brethren, who do not tread under foot the Son of God, who do not count the Blood wherewith He was sanctified, who do not resist the Spirit of Grace...

...do not draw back unto perdition.

But you will not see that, because your heart denies the security of salvation in Christ, and leans on something else. Tell me that isn't so, Vooks. Tell me that you think Christ's Sacrifice actually forgives sin for ever as the text states clearly.
Deny the Writer and the Holy Ghost in this statement...


Hebrews 10:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


It is a warning to Hebrews not to draw back, not believers not to sin.



God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You are digressing. Does any of what you say mean the man was not SANCTIFIED by the blood of the covenant?

Yes, because it does not say that, lol.

What it says is they will, if they reject Christ, the New Covenant, and resist the Holy Ghost...face more severe punishment than their parallel, those who rejected the Covenant of Law.

It is really that simple.

Those who are sanctified by the Blood (Sacrifice) of Christ have their sins forgiven in completion. So this means that all sin, not just those committed prior to being sanctified, are forgiven. We would have a nullification of this statement if the rejecters are said to be sanctified in v.29, because if they are sanctified, then even that rejection would be covered by the forgiveness obtained by being sanctified.

See how you cancel out Scripture?

Both cannot be true, so either you are wrong, or Scripture is wrong.

Guess which one I have my money on?




God bless.

 

[vooks]

There is no sanctification in view for those rejecting Christ, as explained in detail in the posts. But you are ignoring what is said.

Therefore, tell me how the Writer of Hebrews can say both those sanctified by Christ's Sacrifice are forgiven forever and...rejecting Christ?

@Darrell C,
I don't do proof texting because it is a waste of time. If you wish us to discuss ALL bible verses from Genesis to Revelation, I'm all for that, I was born ready. For now we are in Hebrews 10:29

Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,
Was this man sanctified by the blood of the covenant or not?

The warning is to Hebrews who draw back, but, those who do not forsake the assembling of the brethren, who do not tread under foot the Son of God, who do not count the Blood wherewith He was sanctified, who do not resist the Spirit of Grace...

...do not draw back unto perdition.

Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,
Was this man sanctified by the blood?
A crazy ES adherent thinks HE there refers to Christ...

But you will not see that, because your heart denies the security of salvation in Christ, and leans on something else. Tell me that isn't so, Vooks. Tell me that you think Christ's Sacrifice actually forgives sin for ever as the text states clearly.
Deny the Writer and the Holy Ghost in this statement...


Hebrews 10:38-39

King James Version (KJV)

38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


It is a warning to Hebrews not to draw back, not believers not to sin.



God bless.

Once again @Darrell C,
We will discuss Genesis to Revelation if you wish. Let us look at Hebrews 10:29. Was this man sanctified?

Concerning Hebrews 10:38-39,
If believers can't draw back to perdition, why is the author warning them?
'Hey @Darrell C,if you tie some springs on your boots, you may jump all the way to the moon and you won't come back alive.'

More of this later.

Was the subject in Hebrews 10:29 SANCTIFIED by the blood?

 

[vooks]

Yes, because it does not say that, lol.

Hebrews 10:29 Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was NOT/NEVER sanctified,
Is this your reading @Darrell C?

What it says is they will, if they reject Christ, the New Covenant, and resist the Holy Ghost...face more severe punishment than their parallel, those who rejected the Covenant of Law.

It is really that simple.

Explain the words in red. Are they a typo?

Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

Those who are sanctified by the Blood (Sacrifice) of Christ have their sins forgiven in completion. So this means that all sin, not just those committed prior to being sanctified, are forgiven. We would have a nullification of this statement if the rejecters are said to be sanctified in v.29, because if they are sanctified, then even that rejection would be covered by the forgiveness obtained by being sanctified.

See how you cancel out Scripture?

Both cannot be true, so either you are wrong, or Scripture is wrong.

Guess which one I have my money on?




God bless.

Explain this
Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

 

[Darrell C]

Your logic is basically
1. They are perfected forever
2. Those perfected forever can't lose their life
3. He lost his life so he was not perfected forever

This is reading into the text. If the text says he was sanctified, that makes him a believer unless Jesus sanctifies hell fodder

It's not reading into the text...it's right there for you to see:


Point one: 1. They are perfected forever.


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


I have tried to show you the context but it is ignored. This is contrasted with his previous statement...


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


I can't make you understand what he is saying.



Point 2:

2. Those perfected forever can't lose their life


It is simply the consistent teaching of Scripture.

If sin is forgiven through Christ and needs no more sacrifice, then sin is dealt with in completion. And this is exactly what God promised when He promised to establish the New Covenant.

When you can deny this...


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



...then you might be on your way to showing that those sanctified in Christ do not have eternal life.


Point 3:

3. He lost his life so he was not perfected forever


Those who draw back to perdition never had eternal life, they were never born of God.

They did not live by faith, but forsake the assembling of the brethren, tread underfoot the Son of God, consider His Sacrifice unholy, resist the Spirit of Grace.

Those are some interesting characteristics you have for believers, Vooks.

What you are saying is the Writer is in error, we do draw back unto perdition.

Now you have scoffed at the idea that Christ's sacrifice equates to Eternal Security, perhaps you can show where the Writer of Hebrews went wrong here...


Hebrews 9:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Again, we see a contrast between that provided in the Law and that provided in the New Covenant. One provides eternal redemption, which according to the language cannot be translated to the concept your heart holds, which is Probationary Redemption, and the other does not.

Then we negate many of Christ's teachings, so let me give you a few:

Christ taught this:


John 3:36

King James Version (KJV)

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Peter taught this:


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



John taught this:


1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Paul taught this:


Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


So, yes, those sanctified by the Blood of Christ have Eternal Security, for we nullify the teaching when we create a false construct that has the Writer teaching that sins are forgiven for ever then teaching that sins will not be forgiven.

Really quite amazing.


God bless.

 

[vooks]

This saith Holy Spirit;
Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

Thus saith @Darrell C;
Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was NEVER sanctified,

 

[vooks]

It's not reading into the text...it's right there for you to see:


Point one: 1. They are perfected forever.


Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


I have tried to show you the context but it is ignored. This is contrasted with his previous statement...


Hebrews 10:1-4

King James Version (KJV)

1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


I can't make you understand what he is saying.



Point 2:

2. Those perfected forever can't lose their life


It is simply the consistent teaching of Scripture.

If sin is forgiven through Christ and needs no more sacrifice, then sin is dealt with in completion. And this is exactly what God promised when He promised to establish the New Covenant.

When you can deny this...


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



...then you might be on your way to showing that those sanctified in Christ do not have eternal life.


Point 3:

3. He lost his life so he was not perfected forever


Those who draw back to perdition never had eternal life, they were never born of God.

They did not live by faith, but forsake the assembling of the brethren, tread underfoot the Son of God, consider His Sacrifice unholy, resist the Spirit of Grace.

Those are some interesting characteristics you have for believers, Vooks.

What you are saying is the Writer is in error, we do draw back unto perdition.

Now you have scoffed at the idea that Christ's sacrifice equates to Eternal Security, perhaps you can show where the Writer of Hebrews went wrong here...


Hebrews 9:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Again, we see a contrast between that provided in the Law and that provided in the New Covenant. One provides eternal redemption, which according to the language cannot be translated to the concept your heart holds, which is Probationary Redemption, and the other does not.

Then we negate many of Christ's teachings, so let me give you a few:

Christ taught this:


John 3:36

King James Version (KJV)

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.


Peter taught this:


1 Peter 1:3-5

King James Version (KJV)

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.



John taught this:


1 John 5:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.


Paul taught this:


Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


So, yes, those sanctified by the Blood of Christ have Eternal Security, for we nullify the teaching when we create a false construct that has the Writer teaching that sins are forgiven for ever then teaching that sins will not be forgiven.

Really quite amazing.


God bless.

Proof texting is meaningless. Every scriptures you can possibly conjure up to defend your belief we can examine it, but for now,

Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

What is this ?

 

[Darrell C]

To Jewish believers in Jesus Christ, which would pertains to all believers as well.

Yes, Hark, there is application to the Church, but, when we do not keep Hebrews in it's historical context we create false conclusions, as well as overlook the significance that his teaching has to his Hebrew brethren.

For example, the group he writes to is distinct from you and I because we...were never under the Law. We never had to forego a heritage we were brought up under which was God ordained as Israel did.

Here is an example:


Hebrews 5:10-14

King James Version (KJV)

10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


The "First Principles of the Oracles of God" is a reference to the Hebrew Scriptures, not the Bible that includes the New Testament. While the Epistles were circulated at that time, if we blend the New Testament into what he is saying we lose what his intent is.

And the intent is, "You guys are ignorant of the ABCs that the Old Testament teaches, which makes it hard to teach you a more in-depth understanding about Christ. You should be teachers of the Old Testament but you are in need that someone teach you, again, the basic principles given to us in the Old Testament."

What is not being taught here is "You Christians need to mature, and grow in Christ." He is in fact saying that these Hebrews need to go on unto that which is perfect, meaning, the Old Testament was incomplete in knowledge concerning Christ, and was only the ABCs. And it is addressed to Hebrews as a group, not the Church only. Of course it was written to be circulated among Christians, but the focus is on those of Israel struggling with leaving the Covenant of Law and embracing those things he lists.

He says that here:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.


If you have to leave the First Principles and go on unto perfection...that means you have not yet gone on to perfection.

That is the exhortation, and it is specific to those who were under Law. And there is no-one in our time that stands in that unique place in History. Not even among the Jews, because the Jews do not practice the Law as they did in this day, for no offering for sin is offered up according to the Law.

Secondly, the list given specifically refers to doctrines of Judaism, not Christianity. We know this because they are told "Do not lay again these foundational principles," which coincides with progressing from the ABCs, the foundational principles...to that which is perfect (complete).

The Old Testament did not instruct concerning completion in regards to resurrection. They knew there would be a resurrection but they had no idea concerning glorification. We do not have a doctrine of baptisms (washings), we have One Baptism (singular). We do not simply place faith in God, the Gospel demands specific faith in the Person and Work of Christ.

So when we impose a modern application and neglect the historical context it is no wonder we have people teaching that this teaches loss of salvation.

And it is simply not in the text.

What he states specifically is that these Jews are to leave that which was incomplete and go on unto that which is. He is not saying abandon the First Principles, but to progress from them.

And that is the same danger in view in Chapter 10. There he is specific and warns against treading Christ underfoot, counting His Sacrifice as unholy, and resisting the Spirit of Grace.

Who could do that?

Jews who were raised under Law who were, at this time, still able to go to the Temple and offer up sacrifice for sin according to the Law.

But you will never understand this until you spend considerable time familiarizing yourself with this Epistle. Can you honestly say that you have given this Book serious study? Rather than focusing on certain portions of it as most do? Be honest.

How do you guys tag someone to a post?

I am not sure what you mean by "tagging."


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

This saith Holy Spirit;
Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

Thus saith @Darrell C;
Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was NEVER sanctified,

You ignore my question: how can the writer state both, that those sanctified are forgiven forever, and, that they will face the punishment of rejecters?

You deny that Christ is sanctified by His death?

You make Scripture contradict itself.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Proof texting is meaningless. Every scriptures you can possibly conjure up to defend your belief we can examine it, but for now,

Hebrews 10:29 (KJV) and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified,

What is this ?

Proof texting is critical. You offer no Scriptural basis for your views, and ignore the Scriptural Basis provided you.

You can start with actually answering that which is asked of you. Show how Christ and the Apostles do not teach Eternal Security. Show how they are wrong and you are right.

Show how believers can both draw back and not draw back, thus showing that you are right and the Writer of Hebrews, thus the Holy Spirit...is wrong.

And it is because you will not address the proof texts and the commentary given to explain why they prove the asserted view that you will continue to go in circles on this. You are desperately clinging to singular points which you think deny the many other proofs given you to show you are in error.

It's very simple, the Law could not take away sins, Christ did. The remission of sins is complete, and it is forever. It negates the possibility that those in view have drawn back contrary to the writer's clear statement.

Can you tell me why you want to believe Christ's sacrifice cannot save? Just answer that for me.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

If believers can't draw back to perdition, why is the author warning them?

That is what I have been trying to tell you, Vooks, he isn't. He is warning Hebrews who are in danger of rejecting the New Covenant out of unbelief.

It's that simple.

Now it is your turn to teach me why the Writer is in error and you are correct. You can tell me how in view are born again believers drawing back unto perdition.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Okay, for both Hark and Vooks, no more responses to issues unrelated to whether men were born again before Pentecost in this thread.

You are both invited to start threads related to the issues we have been discussing, but, the OP is of more importance and would help both of you in your understanding of issues currently debated in this one.

Or, if either of you care to, you can join the thread I started on this issue, which is still fresh seeing this thread was created after it, and I have tried to address that issue here.


God bless.