Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?

[Darrell C]

I've actually signed off of this thread, since I have a missions trip coming up on March, but I'll give a brief reply, namely: if the meaning of anothen in this context were "from above" (which I admit is possible), then Nicodemus would not have understood it as meaning as being physically "again," as in, "What, you mean I have to enter the womb again?"

Great point, John, but, we see that Nicodemus' reply in a physical context is rebuked.

I will say that I have heard it said that in view in his statement was not an actual physical rebirth, but that this was euphemistic for one "starting all over," creating a context of "Can a man like me, a religious leader, start all over again?"

But I view this to be unlikely because (1) if that were the case this would be a far better known understanding among Theologians, and (2) Christ replies distinguishing between that which is born of the flesh and that which is born of the Spirit (born of God).

I lean heavily towards "From above" being the best translation.

And no need to reply, just wanted to make this comment.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

Darrel c

Being sinful critters we all are subject to being wrong on certain points of Scripture. That being said you have a unique ability not only to be incorrect but incorrect and verbose at the same time.

 

[TCassidy]

Born again. Nicodemus understood that to mean "born again." If not why would he say "enter a second time into my mother's womb?" Had he understood it to mean "born from above" would he not have had to say "enter a second time into the heavenlies?" Preposterous! (In my best Daffy Duck voice.)

 

[Darrell C]

Darrel c

Being sinful critters we all are subject to being wrong on certain points of Scripture. That being said you have a unique ability not only to be incorrect but incorrect and verbose at the same time.

Hey, thanks, I am well aware that there is a unique quality to my postings.

Now, do you have something to say in regards to as to whether men were born again before Pentecost?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Born again. Nicodemus understood that to mean "born again." If not why would he say "enter a second time into my mother's womb?" Had he understood it to mean "born from above" would he not have had to say "enter a second time into the heavenlies?" Preposterous! (In my best Daffy Duck voice.)

You miss a simple lesson in the passage: Nicodemus did not understand anything.

We do not see "again" (though admittedly it is implied from a Post Pentecost perspective) here...

John 3

King James Version (KJV)


5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.


I am not denying the implication of "again," simply pointing out that the understanding of being born again that we have versus that of Nicodemus is far more inclusive of the concept "Again."

The point remains, the Lord is speaking about the Old Testament promise of being born of God, which translates to "from above" and "of the Spirit."


Thus Nicodemus is rebuked, because he takes a meaning which is not in view in the Lord's statement.

If I said "You need to speak to the Chair" and you asked me "Why would I speak to a piece of furniture," and the context of the conversation was in reference to a Board, we would replicate the error of Nicodemus.

So consider that Nicodemus' answer is invalidated by Christ, thus dismissing his response as a proper response, which, I will add, is not something anyone can scoff at as ridiculous, whether it be in a cartoon voice or not.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

You miss a simple lesson in the passage: Nicodemus did not understand anything.

No, I didn't. The point is, and was, that Nicodemus understood the word to mean "born again" thus his reference to his mother's womb.

Jesus then validated that understanding by saying "that which is born of the flesh is flesh." Had the meaning been "born from above" He would have had to say "that which fell from above is - well, uh, from above."

Words mean things. Language means things (semantics). Meaning has meaning (general semantics).

 

[OldRegular]

Born again. Nicodemus understood that to mean "born again." If not why would he say "enter a second time into my mother's womb?" Had he understood it to mean "born from above" would he not have had to say "enter a second time into the heavenlies?" Preposterous! (In my best Daffy Duck voice.)

The question is: "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?"

Now you tell me how unregenerate man could enter heaven.

 

[JonC]

The question is: "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?"

Now you tell me how unregenerate man could enter heaven.

Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

What is the kingdom of God here that one must be born again before entering?

Sent from my TARDIS

 

[th1bill]

I read all of Darrel's post and it made no sense at all. And if a man is Born Again, as I am, when he dies he is immediately present in Heaven with Jesus. None of the Old Testament Saints went to Heaven before Jesus hung on that cross and gave up the ghost allowing Him to go into Paradise to preach the Gospel to them and to release them. (Matthew 27:50-53) Nobody went to Heaven without the Spiritual Birth and I am stuck believing the scriptures and I will profess that even Abraham was there until he was reborn.

 

[TCassidy]

None of the Old Testament Saints went to Heaven before Jesus hung on that cross

What about Elijah and Enoch?

 

[SovereignGrace]

The question is: "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?"

Now you tell me how unregenerate man could enter heaven.

 

[SovereignGrace]

What about Elijah and Enoch?

 

[Darrell C]

No, I didn't. The point is, and was, that Nicodemus understood the word to mean "born again" thus his reference to his mother's womb.

You're still missing it.

Yes, we see Nicodemus understood it is a context of again, but, he had a physical context in view.

But the context was not Nicodemus', it was the Lord's. Look at the conversation:


John 3

King James Version (KJV)

1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.


A few things to consider:


1. From Nicodemus' perspective the context is in regards to Christ being known as coming from God.

2. Christ's response is in a context of Kingdom Restoration.

3. These are not unrelated as many commentators on this passage suggest.

4. Based on the following context, what Christ is saying is...

"...you can't possibly know that I am come from God."

And then He tells him (Nicodemus) why. Because he (Nicodemus) is not...born of God.

Again, Nicodemus' understanding is physical, as was everyone's who awaited the Kingdom of God and the Messiah.

Jesus then validated that understanding by saying "that which is born of the flesh is flesh."

You stand alone in saying that the Lord "validated" Nicodemus' response:


6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?


Nicodemus' physical understanding of the statement is rebuked, and a contrast drawn between what is born of flesh and what is born from above/of God/of the Spirit, all three the consistent teaching concerning regeneration, it is God Who performs this in the lives of men.

Had the meaning been "born from above" He would have had to say "that which fell from above is - well, uh, from above."

There is absolutely no provision in the text to support a concept of "falling." In view is a generation, so to speak, tied to the concept of birth.

"From above" correlates to being born of the Spirit. The "water" also correlates to the Word of God, as we are begotten of God by the Word:


1 Peter 1:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Christ correlates the cleansing spoken of in relation to regeneration (see Ezekiel 36:25) as well...


John 15

King James Version (KJV)

3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.


...which does not necessitate regeneration at this time (for the Mystery of the Gospel is as of yet unrevealed) and does not nullify the future events yet to unfold...


John 17:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Words mean things. Language means things (semantics). Meaning has meaning (general semantics).

That is correct. And the bottom line is that Nicodemus' understanding was physical, and his response rebuked. We do not ascribe any understanding to Nicodemus' response, because Christ did not.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I read all of Darrel's post and it made no sense at all.

Sorry to hear that. Perhaps you could elaborate on what you saw as contradictory or confusing.

And if a man is Born Again, as I am, when he dies he is immediately present in Heaven with Jesus.

This is correct.

Hebrews 9 and 10 give strong indication that no-one went into the Holiest of All before Christ obtained eternal redemption for us by His Blood.

None of the Old Testament Saints went to Heaven before Jesus hung on that cross and gave up the ghost allowing Him to go into Paradise to preach the Gospel to them and to release them. (Matthew 27:50-53)

This is also correct.

Nobody went to Heaven without the Spiritual Birth and I am stuck believing the scriptures

This is not correct.

Regeneration is not something that occurs to spirits, meaning, a man must be born again while he is physically alive.

The spirits of the just from the Old Testament were made perfect, or, made complete in regards to remission of sins, but they were not regenerated as we are. While the same result occurs, men are made acceptable to come into God's presence (into the Holiest of All), there is a difference between the Old Testament Saint who died and went into the reality of the afterlife, which for them meant going to Sheol/Hades. Those of us who are still physically alive still rely upon faith, for there is much we have not seen that the dead among the Old Testaments did see.

and I will profess that even Abraham was there until he was reborn.

Abraham was made perfect, not reborn:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The perfected Old Testament Saint is brought back into relationship spiritually as we are, and we could look at this as regeneration in the eternal perspective, but, the Writer of Hebrews makes the distinction between the Church of Christ and those just men made perfect, which is enough to justify my own distinction between regeneration among the living and what occurred for the Old Testament Just.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

What is the kingdom of God here that one must be born again before entering?

Sent from my TARDIS

I think it makes the most sense to ask "what Kingdom would Nicodemus have understood?"

The Lord asks...

10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?

...so we can know for certain that the Kingdom in view would have been something already available to Nicodemus, and seeing that the "teacher" Nicodemus was, we know the knowledge of that Kingdom would have been found in the Old Testament Scriptures. As an example I would suggest Ezekiel 36:21-27 and Ezekiel 37 as good passages which would correlate both to the promised Kingdom as well as Israel regeneration/restoration.

The Kingdom in view would have certainly been (1) that which Israel had been promised, (2) found in the Old Testament, and (3) revelation God expected them to be aware of.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

What about Elijah and Enoch?

Present the passages used to teach they went into Heaven and we will examine them. I can tell you in advance that they do not say they went into Heaven.

No man went into the Holiest of All before Christ. We will have to first read these two went into Heaven into these passages, then, we will conflict with the clear statements of Scripture that no man did.

And I will start with Christ's own statement to this:


John 3:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.


While God came into man's presence in our own realm (the physical universe and I believe Sheol/Hades as well), there is enough in Scripture to make certain men did not go to Heaven prior to the Cross.

As mentioned in another thread...


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


...the Holiest here is defined in Chapter 9 as Heaven itself. Men were not made perfect prior to the Cross and Pentecost.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

The question is: "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost?"

Now you tell me how unregenerate man could enter heaven.

That is the very lesson Christ teaches in John 3...ye must be born again.

Regeneration is an aspect of Salvation in Christ, which, while all of these aspects work together, have to be distinguished as individual aspects. Regeneration is accomplished in large part through the eternal indwelling of God. We have a new heart and a new spirit, for example, because He has placed His Spirit within us, causing us to walk in His statutes and keep His judgments.

But, the one aspect of salvation which was awaited by the Old Testament Saint was remission of sins in completion, as opposed to the incomplete nature of the provision they had, which was, animals dying in their place for their sin. It is not until Christ died in their stead that their transgressions were redeemed.


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

You're still missing it.

No, you are. Nicodemus understood Jesus was talking about being born a second time. He made that clear in his question. Jesus then went on to talk about birth, first physical then spiritual. Not about going up to or coming down from heaven. He talked about birth. The context of the passage is about birth, physical and spiritual.

 

[TCassidy]

John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Throw away your Red Letter Bible. Just because some type setter put those words in red does not mean they were spoken by Jesus. It is obvious the words were from John, not Jesus.

John is saying that nobody has gone up to heaven, gotten Heavenly Truth directly from God, then returned to Earth to tell us that truth. Only Jesus brings that truth from Heaven.

This is not about the "Protestant Purgatory" nonsense, it is as the Truth of God being given to mankind.

 

[Darrell C]

No, you are. Nicodemus understood Jesus was talking about being born a second time. He made that clear in his question. Jesus then went on to talk about birth, first physical then spiritual. Not about going up to or coming down from heaven. He talked about birth. The context of the passage is about birth, physical and spiritual.

And Nicodemus' response is only physical.


God bless.