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Israel and the church are one and the same.
- Thread starter Bob Hope
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Great topic.
I will start with this...
Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
...and ask, if Israel is the Church, why does Paul, a well known member of the Body...distinguish between Israel and himself?
He clearly states he would, if possible, be accursed from Christ for their sake.
God bless.
I will start with this...
Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
...and ask, if Israel is the Church, why does Paul, a well known member of the Body...distinguish between Israel and himself?
He clearly states he would, if possible, be accursed from Christ for their sake.
God bless.
I suspect it is because nobody actually believes that Israel and the church are the same. The bible makes it clear there is Spiritual Israel and National Israel and they are not the same so neither can them equate to the church.
The church is the repository of the truth under the New Covenant just as Israel was the repository of the truth under the Old Covenant. The church was engrafted into the olive tree which was Israel. Israel is the root and body, the church is the fruit bearing branches.
Remember, the New Covenant was made with exactly the same people the Old Covenant was made with, Spiritual Israel.
Heb 8:6 But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which on better promises has been given as law.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, he said, “Behold, the days come”, says the Lord, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn’t continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them,” says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days,” says the Lord; “I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
The church is the repository of the truth under the New Covenant just as Israel was the repository of the truth under the Old Covenant. The church was engrafted into the olive tree which was Israel. Israel is the root and body, the church is the fruit bearing branches.
Remember, the New Covenant was made with exactly the same people the Old Covenant was made with, Spiritual Israel.
Heb 8:6 But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which on better promises has been given as law.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, he said, “Behold, the days come”, says the Lord, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn’t continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them,” says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days,” says the Lord; “I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Not 'always' have been the same:
1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54
26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2
11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3
There's only one flock now though.
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Bob Hope
Member
I suspect it is because nobody actually believes that Israel and the church are the same. The bible makes it clear there is Spiritual Israel and National Israel and they are not the same so neither can them equate to the church.
The church is the repository of the truth under the New Covenant just as Israel was the repository of the truth under the Old Covenant. The church was engrafted into the olive tree which was Israel. Israel is the root and body, the church is the fruit bearing branches.
Remember, the New Covenant was made with exactly the same people the Old Covenant was made with, Spiritual Israel.
Heb 8:6 But now he has obtained a more excellent ministry, by so much as he is also the mediator of a better covenant, which on better promises has been given as law.
7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second.
8 For finding fault with them, he said, “Behold, the days come”, says the Lord, “that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;
9 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; for they didn’t continue in my covenant, and I disregarded them,” says the Lord.
10 “For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel. After those days,” says the Lord; “I will put my laws into their mind, I will also write them on their heart. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
Christ made it clear in the great commission that the gospel was for all men. Salvation even in the O.T was not based on genetics, but on obedience. This is clearly seen as God never hesitated in destroying unbelieving Israelites and conversely opened salvation to all those who would obey Him.
Isaiah 56:6
Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the Lord, to serve him, and to love the name of the Lord, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
When you read of the restoration of Israel in the O.T., think of what Christ came to do. The purification of His people was to be accomplished through the Messiah. Christianity is not Judeo, it was not an after thought of Judaism but the fulfillment of the law. And further, what of the apostles? Were they not all physical Israelites? Were they not part of the church? Are not all men brought in through Christ? God does save a pure remnant of physical Israel, but this is not have a negative effect on those brothers and sister who are not physically related to Abraham.
Bob Hope
Member
Oh I pretty much agree with the OP. They're as godless as the Muslims.
Bob Hope
Member
The people called Jews are very godless. They steal and murder just as much as Muslims. I was also implying that we don't know Abrahams DNA. We don't know Ishmaels DNA. Just because someone pronounces themselves to be an Israelite does not mean that the followers of Christ need to give them special treatment. Or weapons of mass destruction...etc
6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.
DNA means squat. Always HAS meant squat.
You're preaching to the choir here. It's the dispies that worship and adore and put the political entity that goes by the name' Israel' on the pedestal to worship like an idol, all due to a perverted take on Gen 12:3.
Bob Hope
Member
There's a few around. Most don't post much.
The answer is there a couple of verse down from where you stopped.
"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"
Romans 9:1-6
Just for clarification sake, The church does not replace Israel, the church is grafted into (True) Israel.
"
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"
Romans 11:17-24
Where do we see Paul call Israel the Church?
And what answer is it that you see to the question concerning the distinction?
Can we equally say that not all who are of the Body are of the Body?
The Church is grafted into True Israel? So we are grafted into the believers of the Old Testament?
So the branches that were cut out are in fact members of the Church.
That is interesting, it would seem, if this is true, that salvation can be lost. Because these members of the Church, if your view is correct, has to include those who were cut out through unbelief.
Right?
God bless.
Another reason why we cannot make Israel and the Church the same Body is that we would have to say that only those of Israel were "saved" prior to Pentecost.
Ephesians 2:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Now does Paul speak about the "Spiritual Israel" here? Is that what is in view?
Or National Israel?
The Spiritual Israel most try to correlate to an Old Testament Church did not exclude Gentiles, and this for one simple reason: many of the Household of Faith were not of Israel.
This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, et cetera.
God bless.
Ephesians 2:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
Now does Paul speak about the "Spiritual Israel" here? Is that what is in view?
Or National Israel?
The Spiritual Israel most try to correlate to an Old Testament Church did not exclude Gentiles, and this for one simple reason: many of the Household of Faith were not of Israel.
This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, et cetera.
God bless.
Vs 6 mainly
No
Yes
No
Considering you don't have my view correct your conclusion is also not correct.
Wrong
How does this...
Romans 9:6
King James Version (KJV)
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
...have Paul calling Israel the Church?
What is in his statement is that not all who are of Israel are of Israel.
The basic meaning being, not all who by heritage are of Israel correspond to the realization of promise given Israel.
Romans 9
King James Version (KJV)
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
You are just not going to make that mean anything but that in view is National Israel, not the Church.
They are kinsmen according to the flesh, Israelites, to whom pertains that which is listed there. This is not something we can impose a spiritual application to, and create a church that correlates to the Body of Christ.
The Law was not given to the Church, it was given to Israel. That is a basic truth few will deny.
This is also seen in the passage quoted from Ephesians in the other post.
God bless.
Your view is not in view...read it again. This is the logical conclusion to the reasoning offered, and is supplied for consideration.
God bless.
Keep reading all of Romans 9-11 and maybe you will see it. I know for me Romans 9-11 was always a problem passage for me when I was in your dispensationalist camp as it clearly goes against everything that dispensationalism teaches. It was a passage I read over and over again trying to understand it. And after you were so kind to argue me out of the camp it made a lot more sense once my dispensational presuppositions were done away with.
Hey, what a great idea. Always meant to get around to those chapters someday.
So tell me, have you been happy with the presuppositions of your newfound theology?
Have you yet been able to get to the point where you can show that Christ did not obtain eternal redemption for us, and redeem the transgressions of those under the Law through His Sacrifice yet?
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
But you know what, even if you have, I will not enter into more squabbling with a woman. You can ask your husband to come on and explain how Old Testament Saints were forgiven their sins through animal sacrifice. I have no desire to argue with you.
God bless.
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