Featured Israel and the church are one and the same.

Great topic.

I will start with this...


Romans 9

King James Version (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;


...and ask, if Israel is the Church, why does Paul, a well known member of the Body...distinguish between Israel and himself?

He clearly states he would, if possible, be accursed from Christ for their sake.


God bless.

 

Not 'always' have been the same:

1 Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith Jehovah. Isa 54

26 even the mystery which hath been hid for ages and generations: but now hath it been manifested to his saints,
27 to whom God was pleased to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Col 1

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye that once were far off are made nigh in the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3

There's only one flock now though.

 

Oh I pretty much agree with the OP. They're as godless as the Muslims.

 

6 But it is not as though the word of God hath come to nought. For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
7 neither, because they are Abraham`s seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

DNA means squat. Always HAS meant squat.

You're preaching to the choir here. It's the dispies that worship and adore and put the political entity that goes by the name' Israel' on the pedestal to worship like an idol, all due to a perverted take on Gen 12:3.

 

There's a few around. Most don't post much.

 

No takers?


God bless.

 

The answer is there a couple of verse down from where you stopped.

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, 2That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. 3For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: 4Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;5Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel"
Romans 9:1-6

Just for clarification sake, The church does not replace Israel, the church is grafted into (True) Israel.
"
17And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; 18Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. 19Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. 20Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: 21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. 22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. 24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?"
Romans 11:17-24

 

Where do we see Paul call Israel the Church?

And what answer is it that you see to the question concerning the distinction?

Can we equally say that not all who are of the Body are of the Body?

The Church is grafted into True Israel? So we are grafted into the believers of the Old Testament?

So the branches that were cut out are in fact members of the Church.

That is interesting, it would seem, if this is true, that salvation can be lost. Because these members of the Church, if your view is correct, has to include those who were cut out through unbelief.

Right?


God bless.

 

Another reason why we cannot make Israel and the Church the same Body is that we would have to say that only those of Israel were "saved" prior to Pentecost.


Ephesians 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;


Now does Paul speak about the "Spiritual Israel" here? Is that what is in view?

Or National Israel?

The Spiritual Israel most try to correlate to an Old Testament Church did not exclude Gentiles, and this for one simple reason: many of the Household of Faith were not of Israel.

This would include Abel, Noah, Abraham, et cetera.


God bless.

 

Vs 6 mainly

No

Yes

No

Considering you don't have my view correct your conclusion is also not correct.

Wrong

 

How does this...


Romans 9:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:



...have Paul calling Israel the Church?

What is in his statement is that not all who are of Israel are of Israel.

The basic meaning being, not all who by heritage are of Israel correspond to the realization of promise given Israel.


Romans 9

King James Version (KJV)

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.

3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:

4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;

5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.


You are just not going to make that mean anything but that in view is National Israel, not the Church.

They are kinsmen according to the flesh, Israelites, to whom pertains that which is listed there. This is not something we can impose a spiritual application to, and create a church that correlates to the Body of Christ.

The Law was not given to the Church, it was given to Israel. That is a basic truth few will deny.

This is also seen in the passage quoted from Ephesians in the other post.


God bless.

 

Your view is not in view...read it again. This is the logical conclusion to the reasoning offered, and is supplied for consideration.


God bless.

 

Keep reading all of Romans 9-11 and maybe you will see it. I know for me Romans 9-11 was always a problem passage for me when I was in your dispensationalist camp as it clearly goes against everything that dispensationalism teaches. It was a passage I read over and over again trying to understand it. And after you were so kind to argue me out of the camp it made a lot more sense once my dispensational presuppositions were done away with.

 

Hey, what a great idea. Always meant to get around to those chapters someday.

So tell me, have you been happy with the presuppositions of your newfound theology?

Have you yet been able to get to the point where you can show that Christ did not obtain eternal redemption for us, and redeem the transgressions of those under the Law through His Sacrifice yet?


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


But you know what, even if you have, I will not enter into more squabbling with a woman. You can ask your husband to come on and explain how Old Testament Saints were forgiven their sins through animal sacrifice. I have no desire to argue with you.


God bless.