Are members of the Church left behind in the Rapture?

[Darrell C]

Yeah. I figured out how to tag someone. He might respond, Gd be willing.



John 15 th chapter is following on the tail of John 14 th chapter which is about how salvation will eventually come to believers at Pentecost and beyond, and so historical context does not apply here. Jesus is talking about the future church as saved believers abiding in Him as His disciples.



And so Jesus was not talking about Israel in regards to that vine in John 15 th chapter.



You had reasoned it out in your second quote. The disciples were not a part of the vine until Pentecost, therefore the words of Jesus from 14th chapter to the 16th chapter was about saved believers abiding in Him & His words in being His disciples to bear fruit and that their joy may be full or else.. be cut off as a consequence for not abiding in Him and from being received into that Father's mansion which is the first inheritance.



May God bless you to continue to grow in the knowledge of Him and His words.

Actually, the disciples were part of the vine, but Christ reveals the True Vine, which distinguishes the two.

What is the vine that is not the True Vine? Last time I will ask, and henceforth return this to the topic of the OP, so I will not continue to respond to off-topic issues (unless they relate directly to the OP (sometimes we do have to explore other issues to answer the OP)).

God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

You had earlier reasoned that the disciples were not saved until Pentecost and I say from John 14th chapter which is about His ascension in order for the Father to send the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost that accompanies our salvation is how saved believers is the topic of that vine in John 15 th chapter, and not Israel as Israel has not been redeemed yet to be a part of that vine since the disciples were not.

OOPS, have to make a liar of myself, since you do anwer the question, I guess, here.

All I will say is that the branches are not the vine in either the vine or the True Vine. So I will have to disagree with the answer.


God bless.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

I believe Pastor Bob was referring to those who are not in Christ being left behind. Professing members of the physical church, but not members of the Body of Christ. But we will have to wait and see if he elaborates.

Indeed, I was referring to lost church members in my comments above. I firmly believe that ALL the saved will be taken in the rapture all at once. Not one of God's children will be left behind. Jesus clearly taught that no believer will "come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)

At the moment of our salvation, when we appropriated Christ's substitutionary atonement, we were immediately, not eventually acceptable to God. We were immediately reconciled to God.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

This body will never be split into two parts. We are one body and Christ is the head (Ephesians 5:30). There will not be a mutilated and disfigured body presented to Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

You can find it in the latter section of "Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost for all Christians (or believers, or something like that).

Post number?

 

[Darrell C]

Post number?

You can start in post # 103.

Enjoy.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Actually, the disciples were part of the vine, but Christ reveals the True Vine, which distinguishes the two.

What is the vine that is not the True Vine? Last time I will ask, and henceforth return this to the topic of the OP, so I will not continue to respond to off-topic issues (unless they relate directly to the OP (sometimes we do have to explore other issues to answer the OP)).

God bless.

It's not off topic when I am applying John 15 th chapter to proving that some saints will be left behind for not abiding in Him & His words as His disciples.

Non-believers are not part of the vine to be cut off. John 15:6

It is by abiding in Him and His words is how a believer is His disciple as being a part of that vine to bear fruit.

 

[Hark]

OOPS, have to make a liar of myself, since you do anwer the question, I guess, here.

All I will say is that the branches are not the vine in either the vine or the True Vine. So I will have to disagree with the answer.

God bless.

Understandable. It does seem like you are not seeing how I am applying what we are reading, so I guess we agree to disagree.

May God bless you too.

 

[Hark]

Indeed, I was referring to lost church members in my comments above. I firmly believe that ALL the saved will be taken in the rapture all at once. Not one of God's children will be left behind. Jesus clearly taught that no believer will "come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." (John 5:24)

I dunno...

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Seems to me that a saved believer is held accountable for what he sows towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit.

Awful lot of warning for saved believers to just say that they would never be sowing after the flesh to receive condemnation.

Even James warned the brethren not to swear an oath unless they fall under condemnation. James 5:12

So like Paul taught excommunication in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter, so will God do at the pre trib rapture because I believe that is when God will judge His House first. That is how a believer becomes a vessel unto dishonor in His House by being a castaway and thus left behind.

Even Paul mentioned the danger of not bringing his body under subjection which is more than a loss of rewards of crowns, but to become a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27

At the moment of our salvation, when we appropriated Christ's substitutionary atonement, we were immediately, not eventually acceptable to God. We were immediately reconciled to God.
Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

This body will never be split into two parts. We are one body and Christ is the head (Ephesians 5:30). There will not be a mutilated and disfigured body presented to Christ.

Luke 12:40-49 shows His servants being cut off to have their portions with the unbelievers and thus receiving lashes for not being ready. Hebrews 12:1-2

2 Timothy 2:19-21 testifies to two kinds of vessels in His House; and I believe the vessels unto dishonor for not departing from iniquity are the castaways that will be received later on after the great tribulation.

1 Corinthians 3:10-17 shows that a believer will be judged in that day by fire by what he has built on that foundation; and anyone defiling the temple of God, him, God will destroy with physical death.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not. 22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. 23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

So, yes. God is coming to judge His House first at the pre trib rapture. 1 Peter 4:17 I can trust Him as our faithful Creator to keep the souls of the saints that will suffer the fire & subsequent great tribulation.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.

Luke 21:33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. 34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. 35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. 36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

I doubt any of these words are for unbelievers.

 

[Darrell C]

Post number?

Did you read the posts?


God bless.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Seems to me that a saved believer is held accountable for what he sows towards; the works of the flesh or the fruits of the Spirit.

This is not two classifications of believers; this is simply a description of the believer. Those who are saved do not walk after the flesh but rather after the Spirit. Does the saved man yield to the flesh at times? Indeed he does, but that no longer defines him. He has "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

Notice in the passage I just referenced (Ephesians 4) that Paul encouraged these Christians to put away any works of the flesh that might be an issue for them; yet, he never warned them about being left behind when the Lord comes to catch His Bride away.

So like Paul taught excommunication in 1 Corinthians 5th chapter, so will God do at the pre trib rapture because I believe that is when God will judge His House first. That is how a believer becomes a vessel unto dishonor in His House by being a castaway and thus left behind.

I disagree with your conclusion that Paul is talking about the excommunication of a believer here.

[COMMENT]Even Paul mentioned the danger of not bringing his body under subjection which is more than a loss of rewards of crowns, but to become a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27[/COMMENT]
Paul is simply referring to one's usefulness to the Lord - a being put on the shelf, if you will.
I do not have the time to go passage by passage and explain why I disagree with your conclusions. I feel that you have a forgone conclusion and you pack it with passages taken out of context or parables from which it is unwise to state acquire doctrine.

 

[Hark]

This is not two classifications of believers; this is simply a description of the believer.

I saw it as a warning as well as a promise for believers that do not walk after the flesh.

Those who are saved do not walk after the flesh but rather after the Spirit. Does the saved man yield to the flesh at times? Indeed he does, but that no longer defines him. He has "put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness."

If that was true, then there would be no need to warn them about sowing to the works of the flesh or how God is not mocked if they think they can get away with it.

Notice in the passage I just referenced (Ephesians 4) that Paul encouraged these Christians to put away any works of the flesh that might be an issue for them; yet, he never warned them about being left behind when the Lord comes to catch His Bride away.

That means saved believers have to put them away with His help or risk not receiving that inheritance of being that vessel unto honor in His House.

I disagree with your conclusion that Paul is talking about the excommunication of a believer here.

1 Corinthians 5 th chapter addresses the brother in fornication. He did not say he was not a brother for doing that.

2 Thessalonians 3:1-7 and 2 Thessalonians 3;14-15 has those wicked and unreasonable men that have not faith that follow after the traditions taught of us to not be treated as the enemy, but admonish as brothers.

So there is excommunication & withdrawing from those saved believers not abiding in Him when the Bridegroom comes which is why Jesus is telling His disciples to be ready.

[COMMENT]Even Paul mentioned the danger of not bringing his body under subjection which is more than a loss of rewards of crowns, but to become a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:24-27[/COMMENT]
Paul is simply referring to one's usefulness to the Lord - a being put on the shelf, if you will.

It is to gain rewards of crown by running that race, and the cost for not winning is to be a castaway.

I do not have the time to go passage by passage and explain why I disagree with your conclusions. I feel that you have a forgone conclusion and you pack it with passages taken out of context or parables from which it is unwise to state acquire doctrine.

Thank you for the time and posting shared, but there are still contentions in regards to the scripture since I find these truths still opposing your application which is popular among believers today about the rapture.

Explain 2 Timothy 2:19-21 on how the vessel unto dishonor in His House are those believers in iniquity? How can any one in iniquity be received by the Holy God for the Marriage Supper? This is why I believe these saints left behind are those that did not depart from iniquity and are to be received later on as vessels unto dishonor in His House.

 

[Darrell C]

How can any one in iniquity be received by the Holy God for the Marriage Supper?

What context do you see in this teaching:


Luke 14:15-24

King James Version (KJV)

15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.


And this one:


Matthew 22:1-14

King James Version (KJV)

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.


Is the context of the Rapture, Tribulation, or Kingdom?


God bless.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

How can any one in iniquity be received by the Holy God for the Marriage Supper?

I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

All children of God, dead or alive, will be changed. We will all be caught up together. There will be none left behind. That is my humble opinion based upon my understand of the Word of God.

 

[Hark]

What context do you see in this teaching:

Below is the teaching of how the cares of this life, even with commitments and promises, can be a snare as it can be seen as excusing oneself from the Marriage Supper, because they love this life and are committed to the things of this life more than being free and ready in going to the Marriage Supper at any moment which is the pre trib rapture event.


Luke 14:15-24

King James Version (KJV)

15 And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God.

16 Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many:

17 And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready.

18 And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused.

19 And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused.

20 And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come.

21 So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind.

22 And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room.

23 And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled.

24 For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper.

And this one:

Below is to the pre trib rapture event.


Matthew 22:1-14

King James Version (KJV)

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Is the context of the Rapture, Tribulation, or Kingdom?


God bless.

Both in the context of the Rapture from the portion of the scripture you have shown.

Dead works can void faith and that is how a saved believer can be found without his wedding garment.

 

[Darrell C]

All children of God, dead or alive, will be changed. We will all be caught up together. There will be none left behind. That is my humble opinion based upon my understand of the Word of God.

Now don't get upset with me, but I am going to have to disagree: that is not your opinion, that is just Biblical Truth.




God bless.

 

[Hark]

I Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

All children of God, dead or alive, will be changed. We will all be caught up together. There will be none left behind. That is my humble opinion based upon my understand of the Word of God.

I understand your point of view, but earlier, it was written that there is Christ the firstfruits, and then they that be Christ's at His coming, as citing an order by which all men in Christ shall be made alive.

Your p.o.v. can still be maintained, but it is because in light of other scripture is why I see two groups as they that be Christ's at His coming also includes saints left behind for not abiding in Him as His disciples.

If you take in account the three angels that will set up the hour of temptation that will try all on the earth AFTER the rapture where after the first angel spread the everlasting gospel to everyone, then the second angel heralds the fall of Babylon which goes into detail in Revelation 18 th chapter as these saints are made to rest from their labors as their works follow them. ( hint: they were laboring in unbelief in coming short of that rest in Jesus like the works of catholicism or the commitment to follow Christ or the seven promises of the Promise Keepers program )

Now if they were new believers due to the everlasting gospel and then bam, Babylon falls soon after the pre trib rapture where the voice of the bride & bridegroom will no longer be heard in her any more, because that call to the Marriage Supper has come and gone, how can these saints have any works following them when they have no time to do any such work? That is why I believe those saints left behind were the ones laboring in unbelief which Paul warned believers in Hebrews to fear ( Hebrews 4:1-3 ) So any work of iniquity that denies Him ( Titus 1:15-16 ) they will be denied by Him ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ) but even though they believe not, He still abides in them, even those that just believe in His name ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) as promised ( John 1:12-13 & John 6:39 )

I submit that Paul was speaking in regards to those IN Christ as abiding in Him as His disciples to be the firstfruits which he was referring to in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 as that "we all firstfruit" group when that happens.

 

[Darrell C]

Both in the context of the Rapture from the portion of the scripture you have shown.

And you feel this is the only application we can give it?

Consider, in the first quote, who those hearing this teaching would have viewed the cast to be. Would they have seen the Master as Christ? Or, would these Jews have placed this into a context of the Promised Kingdom.

Secondly, I again call your attention to the fact that those rejected are burned. This terminology does not speak of punishment or chastisement, but destruction. This correlates to Christ's teaching in Matthew 25 (as well as many similar parables and teachings which illustrate the Lord's Return.

The second, also, has a Jewish context, which I will illustrate with one section of, which cannot be applied to the Church at all:


Matthew 22:1-14

King James Version (KJV)

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.


Now, what is in view here is not the Church in this Age, but Israel. We cannot in any way find a way to apply the slaying of God's servants by...Christians. Rather, in view is the same thing we see here:


Matthew 23:37

King James Version (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!


What the state of Israel will be when the Lord Returns is the same as it was when He was here before. Israel will enter the Tribulation a secular nation, and ony those who are saved at this time will enter into the Kingdom that still remains to be realized at the Lord's Return.

We can't create a picture of the Church slaying God's Servants, but we can see this in Israel.

Dead works can void faith and that is how a saved believer can be found without his wedding garment.

But Christians do not perform dead works.

Consider:


Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

That is an Old Testament doctrine that we are not to lay again.

Christians are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, and this is what is meant when the Lord teaches that those who abide in Him will always produce fruit. And they are pruned to produce more fruit.

That principle is taught in the Parable of the soils as well:


Matthew 13:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.


Here as well...


Matthew 7:17-20

King James Version (KJV)

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.


Just because a Christian fails, doesn't man that they suffer a separation from the very God that indwells them. The result for the sinning Christian that refuses repentance is the same as it was in the Old Testament: on a physical basis. Paul wrote that many were sick and even dying for partaking of Communion unworthily.

But the fact that nothing can separate us from the love of God is just a Bible basic.

So we have to be careful about distinguishing between the temporal and eternal in Scripture.

And I would just remind you that we all start out as babes, and it is of a certainty that we are going to fail, going to sin, and always, always, always...going to need to continue to mature.

We don't expect young children to be flawless, and expect them to make mistakes. Now, if God demands that we train up our children in the way they should go, how much more is our Heavenly Father going to train us up in the way we should go?


God bless.

 

[Hark]

And you feel this is the only application we can give it?

As far as I can see from what you had quoted, yes.

Consider, in the first quote, who those hearing this teaching would have viewed the cast to be. Would they have seen the Master as Christ? Or, would these Jews have placed this into a context of the Promised Kingdom.

Many are called, but few are chosen would go from what Jesus was talking about the Jews rejecting the chief cornerstone in Matthew 21 st chapter to those that did not reject the chief cornerstone, but still favored this life over the King's supper, thus the slaying shows how much they were disrespecting that invite in the eyes of God as they killed the messenger, they were killing the invites as well. So any saint left behind for favoring this life is going to face that fire coming on the earth.

Secondly, I again call your attention to the fact that those rejected are burned. This terminology does not speak of punishment or chastisement, but destruction.

Matthew 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

More of a fire on the world than eternal fire.

This correlates to Christ's teaching in Matthew 25 (as well as many similar parables and teachings which illustrate the Lord's Return.

I find that portion you are referring to in Matthew 25 th chapter is the end of the milleniel reign after Satan's last rebellion as judgment on the generation coming out of that reign on earth to be judged. I do not see it connected to these other scriptural references at all, brother.

The second, also, has a Jewish context, which I will illustrate with one section of, which cannot be applied to the Church at all:

Matthew 22:1-14

King James Version (KJV)

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

Now, what is in view here is not the Church in this Age, but Israel. We cannot in any way find a way to apply the slaying of God's servants by...Christians. Rather, in view is the same thing we see here:

Invite to the Marriage Supper that neither the disciples nor ourselves have received yet?

I believe the parable when after the servants get killed, and then the Son was sent, I believe you are thinking of that one as pertaining to Israel's rejection of the Son.

But I do not see the above reference to what you are saying yet.

Matthew 23:37

King James Version (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

What the state of Israel will be when the Lord Returns is the same as it was when He was here before. Israel will enter the Tribulation a secular nation, and ony those who are saved at this time will enter into the Kingdom that still remains to be realized at the Lord's Return.

We can't create a picture of the Church slaying God's Servants, but we can see this in Israel.

I believe that reference in Matthew 23 is Israel rejecting the gospel as well as all the prophets before that gospel was sent.

But Christians do not perform dead works.

Consider:

You may be surprise on how many believers get re-baptized again.

I am sure you know that many believers are still seeking to save themselves too.

Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

That is an Old Testament doctrine that we are not to lay again.

There are believers who feel they can lose salvation and then believe they have to be saved again. It is apostasy, but it has and can happen.

Christians are created in Christ Jesus unto good works, and this is what is meant when the Lord teaches that those who abide in Him will always produce fruit. And they are pruned to produce more fruit.

I do not read scripture as saying that. If a person abiding in the vine is not bearing fruit, he will get cut off.

That principle is taught in the Parable of the soils as well:

Matthew 13:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Actually, most of that parable testify to receiving the seed, but some did not always bear fruit as a disciple would.

Here as well...

Matthew 7:17-20

King James Version (KJV)

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

That is about recognizing a false prophet. Say for example; the fruit of a false prophet will be ecumenical in nature in gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. The tree versus fruit analogy is whatever the means or common denomenator is of that ecumenicalism, if it is even seen as producing an evil fruit, then that means.. as in that tree, is all bad.

Like.. Promise Keepers program....the commitment to follow Christ... ecumenical in nature, refusing to convert any from their denomenations and that includes Catholics, then that means is of evil as it places a yoke of bondage on believers that Jesus nor any of His disciples taught.

Or like the movements of the "Spirit" where signs and lying wonders come by means of seeking the Holy Spirit to come to receive after a sign like David Wilkerson bad mouths the "holy laughter" movement but he, himself, will pray for the Holy Spirit to come into the worship place to feel the Presence of the Holy Spirit IN the worship place. It is the same tree, therefore what David was experiencing was also the spirit of the antichrist.

Just because a Christian fails, doesn't man that they suffer a separation from the very God that indwells them. The result for the sinning Christian that refuses repentance is the same as it was in the Old Testament: on a physical basis. Paul wrote that many were sick and even dying for partaking of Communion unworthily

.

I never said that God stops dwelling within them. They will be denied by Him ( 2 Timothy 2:12 ) entrance for being in iniquity still ( Matthew 7:23 & Titus 1:15-16 ), unless they repent by His help & by His grace before the Bridegroom comes. He still abides in former believers, ( 2 Timothy 2:13 ) but they also are naked of their wedding garment unless they look to Him for help to discern the lies that overthrow their faith to depart from that iniquity of unbelief.

But the fact that nothing can separate us from the love of God is just a Bible basic.

Which is why saints left behind are still His and He still abides in them.

So we have to be careful about distinguishing between the temporal and eternal in Scripture.

Without disregarding the warning of consequences given to believers since believers can still sin by sowing to the flesh or go astray or allow the cares of this life to make them not want to leave when the Bridegroom comes.

And I would just remind you that we all start out as babes, and it is of a certainty that we are going to fail, going to sin, and always, always, always...going to need to continue to mature.

That is why I need His help to even keep my hope on Him to help me to follow Him since I trust Him to be my Good Shepherd too. 1 John 3:3 & 2 Timothy 4:18

We don't expect young children to be flawless, and expect them to make mistakes. Now, if God demands that we train up our children in the way they should go, how much more is our Heavenly Father going to train us up in the way we should go?

Just as Peter's eyes were taken off of the Lord Jesus on the waters to the winds and waves of the storm, so can any believer in this life. This is where trusting the Lord for all things, including when we are overwhelm is important because trusting Him to take care of us no matter what is Him helping us to keep our eyes on Him in the midst of our storms in life.

God bless.

May God bless you too.

 

[Darrell C]

Matthew 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

More of a fire on the world than eternal fire.

Look at it again and realize that we still do not apply this to born again believers:

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

This is speaking about eternal punishment and it cannot be applied to believers, who have been delivered from the wrath to come in every eschatological application we speak of.

You are seeking to tie believers left behind with the unbelievers in the Tribulation and it just doesn't fit the teaching. Believers are represented by who enter, unbelievers by who is destroyed.

Many are called, but few are chosen would go from what Jesus was talking about the Jews rejecting the chief cornerstone in Matthew 21 st chapter to those that did not reject the chief cornerstone, but still favored this life over the King's supper, thus the slaying shows how much they were disrespecting that invite in the eyes of God as they killed the messenger, they were killing the invites as well. So any saint left behind for favoring this life is going to face that fire coming on the earth.

(sorry, got this out of order)

My friend, you are the only one who sees that, lol. You have Christians committing murder and being left behind.

I find that portion you are referring to in Matthew 25 th chapter is the end of the milleniel reign after Satan's last rebellion as judgment on the generation coming out of that reign on earth to be judged. I do not see it connected to these other scriptural references at all, brother.

At the end of the Millennial Kingdom the judgment that falls does not involve the Sheep and Goat Judgment, but the Great White Throne Judgment. A-mils also see this as the same judgment (that depicted in Revelation 20).

Now, what is in view here is not the Church in this Age, but Israel. We cannot in any way find a way to apply the slaying of God's servants by...Christians. Rather, in view is the same thing we see here:

Matthew 23:37

King James Version (KJV)

37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

Invite to the Marriage Supper that neither the disciples nor ourselves have received yet?

I believe the parable when after the servants get killed, and then the Son was sent, I believe you are thinking of that one as pertaining to Israel's rejection of the Son.

But I do not see the above reference to what you are saying yet.

You see the invite as relevant to the Church, it was not. The Church was as of yet a mystery, and did not exist. The invite was to Israel, Hark, The murder was committed by those of Israel. It is clear who is in view because it is stated right there in the text, lol.

Unless you believe that "Jerusalem, Jerusalem" is code for the Body of Christ.

And would you seriously have the Lord saying, "o Church..."

Just not reasonable.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

I believe that reference in Matthew 23 is Israel rejecting the gospel as well as all the prophets before that gospel was sent.

All of the references were of and to Israel, because that is who was there then, and who it was spoken to.

But Christians do not perform dead works.


You may be surprise on how many believers get re-baptized again.

I am sure you know that many believers are still seeking to save themselves too.

Hebrews 6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

One getting baptized again is irrelevant to salvation, as is what people think. What people think does not legitimize their understanding. Only Scripture can be looked to as valid.

The point here is that the Writer is listing doctrines of the Law, not Christian principles, and tells them do not lay them down again. They are to go on unto perfection/completion, or in other words...embrace Christ. That is the consistent warning of the Writer to his Hebrew Brethren.

There are believers who feel they can lose salvation and then believe they have to be saved again. It is apostasy, but it has and can happen.

Because they "feel" they can does not change the fact that Scripture teaches salvation is eternal.

Apostasy is a standing away from, basically, and when spoken of refers to those clearly shown to reject Christ. All passages used to teach loss of salvation impose a state of salvation into those who are clearly not saved.

I do not read scripture as saying that. If a person abiding in the vine is not bearing fruit, he will get cut off.

And again, the context of John 15 is prophetic, and speaks of the coming time when the Law will end and men will have to decide between the True Vine and the vine which is not true.

The text is clear, as are the other teachings just given: Christians will not fail to bear fruit, and it is by our fruit we are known. But no real point in reiterating, lol, I get it, you think believers can be left behind and burned up.

Matthew 13:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.

Actually, most of that parable testify to receiving the seed, but some did not always bear fruit as a disciple would.

Only the good ground receives the seed and produces fruit. This does not list four different results in Christians.


Matthew 13:18-23

King James Version (KJV)

18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.


Only the good ground presents salvation. And everyone saved produces fruit.

Matthew 7:17-20

King James Version (KJV)

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

That is about recognizing a false prophet. Say for example; the fruit of a false prophet will be ecumenical in nature in gathering grapes of thorns and figs of thistles. The tree versus fruit analogy is whatever the means or common denomenator is of that ecumenicalism, if it is even seen as producing an evil fruit, then that means.. as in that tree, is all bad.

Like.. Promise Keepers program....the commitment to follow Christ... ecumenical in nature, refusing to convert any from their denomenations and that includes Catholics, then that means is of evil as it places a yoke of bondage on believers that Jesus nor any of His disciples taught.

Or like the movements of the "Spirit" where signs and lying wonders come by means of seeking the Holy Spirit to come to receive after a sign like David Wilkerson bad mouths the "holy laughter" movement but he, himself, will pray for the Holy Spirit to come into the worship place to feel the Presence of the Holy Spirit IN the worship place. It is the same tree, therefore what David was experiencing was also the spirit of the antichrist.

The same principle is in view, and a distinction between true and false is made.

It has nothing to do with an ecumenical scenario.

And it still has the genuine article producing good fruit, whereby they are to be recognized, just as the false is.

And this is the same principle seen in 2 Peter 2. And just like here, those who teach loss of salvation convert those who are clearly not believers into believers, that they can teach that believers can lose salvation.


Continued...