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Featured Berean Proof the Nicene Creed of 381 A.D. Challenge

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hark, Feb 23, 2016.

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  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    How was God the Spirit glorifying Christ in the wilderness?


    Hebrews 3:7-11

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

    8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

    10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

    11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)



    And would you tell me what Christ means here...


    Matthew 12:32

    King James Version (KJV)

    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


    ...?


    Where in the Old Testament...


    Acts 7:51

    King James Version (KJV)

    51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


    ...is God speaking to Israel distinguished as being spoken by the Spirit?

    Who...


    Acts 28:25

    King James Version (KJV)

    25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,


    ...spoke through Isaiah?

    How...


    Romans 8:9-10

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


    ...do we so separate the Holy Ghost from Christ that we create a position of not worshipping them as One God?


    God bless.
     
    #61 Darrell C, Feb 27, 2016
  2. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 3:7-11

    King James Version (KJV)

    7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,

    8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:

    9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.

    10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

    11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

    What is the way to enter into that rest? By coming to the Son.

    What is the way to come to the Father in worship? By coming to the Son.


    Matthew 12:32

    King James Version (KJV)

    32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.


    You can't be speaking against the Holy Ghost when the Holy Ghost is leading you to speak of the Son to honor the Son to glorify the Son.



    Acts 7:51

    King James Version (KJV)

    51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.


    .
    How about Who it is that they are resisting the Holy Ghost about? The Son.


    Acts 28:25

    King James Version (KJV)

    25 And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,


    Who was the Holy Spirit speaking about through Isaiah? The Son.


    Romans 8:9-10

    King James Version (KJV)

    9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


    .
    Do we not separate the Father & the Holy Ghost from the Son when the Son of God had died on the cross?

    And yet this was the mind of Christ we are to have when exalting the name of Jesus above every other name to the glory of God the Father.

    Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    Now let what He has done be in your mind when you come to worship God the Father by because that is why and how His name is above every other name.

    9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Below, Paul told every believer to be obedient on how they worship God the Father by and that is only by way of glorifying the Son.

    12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

    So pretty much, the Nicene creed is misleading believers into thinking that Jesus & Paul said something else in how to honor & glorify the Father by... as in... "Did God really say that?". Yeah.. He did. Plainly.

    John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

    But I guess a lot of people will believe the Nicene creed of 381 A.D. over Jesus's words of Him being the only way on how to come to the Father to worship Him by.
     
    #62 Hark, Feb 27, 2016
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Some do, I think that is a mistake.

    Can God separate Himself from Himself?

    The obvious answer is no.

    When Christ died on the Cross, He said it was finished. This negates a possibility that the teaching "He was separated from God and underwent the Second Death."

    Christ states...


    John 16:32

    King James Version (KJV)

    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


    This is without controversy a context in which the Cross is in view.

    What you are saying, if you say you separate the Son of God from the Father and Holy Ghost is that Christ was at that time no longer God. Just a man.

    Scripture does not teach that.

    Christ was and always remained God, though He veiled His glory in human flesh.

    This is why I reject the statement of the Creed that states "We believe Christ to be the eternally begotten Son."

    That is in error. Christ is not eternally begotten, the Incarnation was prophesied about and occurred at a particular time in the history of men. Now if that statement is taught as a reference to the foreknowledge of God, that is okay, but, we have to recognize that Christ came into being the day He was placed in Mary's womb.

    Some will misunderstand what I am saying but it is just a Biblical Fact that Jesus Christ has a point in time when He came into being.

    Now the Son of God, that is Who is Eternally God. He is God, always has been, always will be.

    Even on the Cross.

    And that's it for me for the night.


    God bless.
     
    #63 Darrell C, Feb 27, 2016
  4. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    John 16:32

    King James Version (KJV)

    32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


    No. I believe Jesus referred to when every one will be scattered. There is a different view on that cross when this was written.

    Matthew 27:45 Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour. 46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Mark & Luke both testify also to this event when Jesus took our sins upon Himself that it was "reflected" in nature as the light from the sun, the light from the full moon, and the light from the stars all blinked out as an unexplainable darkness enveloped the world. The light of creation took our sins upon Himself.

    2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    Thallus, a secular historian, recorded the darkness at His crucifixion as an eclipse, but Julius Africanus corrected him as saying it was unlikely because there was a full moon at that time. Therefore for that darkness to exist, where was the light from the full moon? Therefore the light from the stars were also affected for such a darkness to exists.

    http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/crucifixion_darkness.htm

    So the Son of God did experience a separation from God the Father.

    The Son of God was also the Son of Man, and the Son of Man had died, but Christ had the power to be alive again.

    John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Philippians 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

    This is His glory.

    Philippians 2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

    Can God die? The Son of God/Son of Man did. God the Father cannot, and neither can the Holy Spirit.

    Actually, since it is written that no man has seen God the Father, but Jesus has, John 1:18 & John 6:46 , then Who was the God that men had seen in the O.T. by Abraham ( Genesis 18:1 ), Isaac ( Exodus 6:3 ), ( Genesis 32:24-30 ) Jacob & others ( Exodus 4:5 )? That was the Son of God.

    Yep. When He took our sins upon Himself, our Creator, the Light of the world, it did show in creation of what our Creator did for us as Witnessed by the Father & the Holy Spirit.
     
    #64 Hark, Feb 28, 2016
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    If you cannot find this, which is an Old Testament quote, in a context of Christ being taken, where it is quite evident that the disciples abandoned Him, not much I can contribute to further conversation.


    God bless.
     
    #65 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And that belief contributes to your confusion about the Spirit, I believe.

    It denies a basic principle that there is One God, the Father is in the Son, and the Son in the Father.

    Could you present your thought on why the Son was separated from the Father?


    God bless.
     
    #66 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And your view teaches that the Son of God ceased being the Son of God, was solely the Son of Man on the Cross, and separated from the Father.


    God bless.
     
    #67 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No, Hark, the Son of God did not die, nor did He ever cease to be. The flesh died, so where was the Son of Man at the moment of His physical death?


    God bless.
     
    #68 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    So you feel this passage teaches that Christ became only a man in the Incarnation?

    You realize you are saying two things at once in your response, right?

    So you are providing this passage to deny my statement above? Just want to make sure this is not a mistake, and give you an opportunity to clarify what seems to be said here.


    God bless.
     
    #69 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    No, God cannot die, though that flesh He took upon Himself did die a physical death.

    The Atonement was complete in physical death, we know this, because Christ states "It is finished."

    That means it was done. He did not go into Hades to suffer, or finish something, He went there to liberate the Just.


    God bless.
     
    #70 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    I also take that view for the most part, but, this does nothing to support what you are arguing.

    Secondly, in view is the Son of God, not Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ was born of Mary, whereas the Son of God is eternally God.

    The concept of "begetting" does not apply to the Son of God in eternity, but in the temporal only. I believe we do see the Son of God manifest in form and dwell with men, but, any time He interacted directly His glory was always veiled, because there is a principle supplied to us which suggests strongly that men would die should they gaze upon God in His glory.

    This is God coming into man's realm, quite different than man coming into God's Realm (Heaven) or presence.

    You are not going to be able to impose the Body created in Mary into the Old Testament.


    God bless.
     
    #71 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  12. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    You quoted it.

    John 16:32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.

    Jesus was referring to that hour when His disciples would be scattered is when at that time, the Father would be still with Him.
     
    #72 Hark, Feb 28, 2016
  13. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 59:2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

    That was why He was asking where His Father was, and how He felt forsaken. It was in that hour of darkness, that the Son of God took our sins upon Himself in ransoming us back to God.

    2 Corinthians 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
     
    #73 Hark, Feb 28, 2016
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And when did the disciples return to Christ and believe, Hark?


    God bless.
     
    #74 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  15. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    No. Jesus was both the Son of God & the Son of Man on the cross.
     
    #75 Hark, Feb 28, 2016
  16. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And it is simply a common misconception that God cannot look upon sin.

    You take the separation of man from God and impose that onto the Person of Christ, Who is in fact God.

    You are presenting a Theology that suggests you believe in three Gods, my friend.

    You are denying the Unity of the Godhead.


    God bless.
     
    #76 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  17. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Can man do this?

    John 10:17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

    Only the Son of God can do that at the cross.
     
    #77 Hark, Feb 28, 2016
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Then you have God dying.

    And the point was the Son of God was not the Son of Man until the Incarnation. The Son of God is Eternal God, Jesus Christ had a point in time when He entered the World.

    Now, where was the Son of God when His physical flesh was dead?


    God bless.
     
    #78 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And that denies what Scripture teaches. We only view Christ as dying a physical death, not a spiritual death, not the Second Death. It was finished through the death of the physical flesh.

    And when He died, He did not go to Hades to further Atonement, but to declare victory...

    ...because it was finished.

    And we see here HE laid His life down. Why? Because He was God, and had the power to lay down His life a ransom.

    I'm sorry, but the Christ you are presenting is not the Christ I worship. That Christ was God before the Incarnation, during His earthly Ministry, during His physical death, after His Resurrection, and currently.


    God bless.
     
    #79 Darrell C, Feb 28, 2016
  20. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    What passage are you talking about since many passages are in that quote?

    You seem to be taking it that way just for me to be wrong.

    I believe you should refer to the passage in question to clarify your response so I know what you are talking about.
     
    #80 Hark, Feb 28, 2016
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