Are members of the Church left behind in the Rapture?

[Hark]

First, again the historical context, which is clearly speaking about the Prophets.

Secondly, you assume I am the one "killing the message," lol.

Third, the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, above all other views, motivates to Holy Living. We view the Rapture as possibly occurring at any moment, which means this very minute I am speaking to you, the Lord could call me up. So there is no logic in your reasoning that me pointing out that the entire Church is caught up somehow equates to me telling you "Hey, no worries mate, live it up," is a false argument.




Now I want you to notice what you do here, Hark, because this is something you have been doing frequently, and is why you are merging teachings and concepts: you exchange the actual issue with something else.

You have gone from what is in the text, a killing of people, and made it a message.


Matthew 22:1-14
King James Version (KJV)

22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.


Israel did not kill "the message," they slew the Prophets.

Now, again...how do you have Christians slaying the servants of God?

Unbelievers are the murderers, and just as stated before, you are imposing a quality of believer to those clearly identified as unbelievers. And you have to do this to support your view.




My friend, this is a construct of your mind and not something you have taken from the text.

You are spiritualizing the very meaning of the passage/s away to support your view.

Now I am causing people to go to Hell because I am a Pre-Tribulation believer?

C'mon. lol




Do you know that Israel was bought with a price?


Deuteronomy 32:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.

6 Do ye thus requite the Lord, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?


This is why Peter quotes this:


2 Peter 2

King James Version (KJV)

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


In view are unbelievers.

That's who is left behind at the Rapture, Hark.

God bless.

I reckon you will have to wait and see what God will do at the rapture.

Incidentally, I do believe those believers that are abiding in Him that do not believe saved believers can be left behind, but are unsaved, will be like the elder son looking at the prodigal son with disdain because of the father receiving him with celebration when the prodigal son had thrown away his inheritance for wild living.

So if you are abiding in Him as His disciple, then like the elder son, you will find out that those professing believers were saved even though they were left behind for not abiding in Him.

 

[Darrell C]

I reckon you will have to wait and see what God will do at the rapture.

Incidentally, I do believe those believers that are abiding in Him that do not believe saved believers can be left behind, but are unsaved, will be like the elder son looking at the prodigal son with disdain because of the father receiving him with celebration when the prodigal son had thrown away his inheritance for wild living.

So if you are abiding in Him as His disciple, then like the elder son, you will find out that those professing believers were saved even though they were left behind for not abiding in Him.

lol

I don't need to wait and see, Hark, that is why God gave us His Word...that we might know now.

While the time the event of the rapture is unknown to us, the Rapture itself is not, it is taught to us by Paul.

And Paul is clear that the entire Church is caught up:


1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Doesn't say "Then some of us that are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds."


God bless.

 

[TCassidy]

"We are talking about salvation in receiving Him, Whom is Jesus, right?"

Pretty sure I got it right.

Pretty sure you got it wrong! Come on, this is 4th grade grammar!

Again, use the "He, Him" test.

"We are talking about salvation in receiving Him, Whom is Jesus, right?"

"We are talking about salvation in receiving Him, Him is Jesus, right?"

"We are talking about salvation in receiving Him, He is Jesus, right?"

"He" is what you would say and is correct. Therefore "Who" is correct.

The reason I get so pedantic on these matters of using good grammar is that when you post on a board such as this one, and express many concepts which are deeply theological, and require careful study, to make such a silly error of grammar makes it very difficult to take your postings seriously. It makes the reader wonder if you may be as ignorant of theology as you seem to be of English grammar.

 

[Hark]

lol

I don't need to wait and see, Hark, that is why God gave us His Word...that we might know now.

While the time the event of the rapture is unknown to us, the Rapture itself is not, it is taught to us by Paul.

And Paul is clear that the entire Church is caught up:


1 Thessalonians 4:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.


Doesn't say "Then some of us that are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds."

God bless.

You keep leaving out the ones that Paul mentioned in that chapter about saved believers walking after uncleanness that do not know how to possess their vessel in honor as those that despise God.

You really see them as being among the " all " that will be changed?

 

[Darrell C]

You keep leaving out the ones that Paul mentioned in that chapter about saved believers walking after uncleanness that do not know how to possess their vessel in honor as those that despise God.

You really see them as being among the " all " that will be changed?

Again you completely ignore the point and go right back to using an unrelated text.

There is nothing in that passage which even hints at the Rapture. I have addressed this same point over and over, and have spoken of physical death as the punishment a sinning believer can attain to.

The fact remains that whether unto honor, or dishonor, the vessels are still...

...in the house.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Pretty sure you got it wrong! Come on, this is 4th grade grammar!

Again, use the "He, Him" test.

"We are talking about salvation in receiving Him, Whom is Jesus, right?"

"We are talking about salvation in receiving Him, Him is Jesus, right?"

"We are talking about salvation in receiving Him, He is Jesus, right?"

"He" is what you would say and is correct. Therefore "Who" is correct.

The reason I get so pedantic on these matters of using good grammar is that when you post on a board such as this one, and express many concepts which are deeply theological, and require careful study, to make such a silly error of grammar makes it very difficult to take your postings seriously. It makes the reader wonder of you may be as ignorant of theology as you seem to be of English grammar.

Ah... well. If that is yours and the readers' standard, I can see why believers are not coming into the forum.

 

[TCassidy]

Ah... well. If that is yours and the readers' standard, I can see why believers are not coming into the forum.

Again, it would behoove you to actually read what I post, and quote it accurately.

Here is what I said, that making such errors of "grammar makes it very difficult to take your postings seriously. It makes the reader wonder of you may be as ignorant of theology as you seem to be of English grammar."

Notice I did not mention any standard, nor did I say that I set your errors as a standard. I clearly used non-specific language. No reader in particular, many readers in general.

But I do applaud the fact you did not include an apostrophe in "yours." One of the very few possessives in English that does not require the apostrophe. (Another being "its.") Well, done.

 

[Hark]

Again you completely ignore the point and go right back to using an unrelated text.

There is nothing in that passage which even hints at the Rapture. I have addressed this same point over and over, and have spoken of physical death as the punishment a sinning believer can attain to.

The fact remains that whether unto honor, or dishonor, the vessels are still...

...in the house.


God bless.

Would you receive a professing believer living in sin thus not possessing his vessel in honor & thus again, despising you, into your house to eat with? Then neither will God at the rapture, brother.

 

[Darrell C]

Would you receive a professing believer living in sin thus not possessing his vessel in honor & thus again, despising you, into your house to eat with? Then neither will God at the rapture, brother.

This implies a works-based mentality, Hark.

Think about it: you are saying God won't Rapture a sinning believer, when the fact is He saved them as sinners to begin with, didn't He? Aren't we of His House when we are saved?

You are creating a merit system which is not seen in salvation. If God were going to refuse sinners He wouldn't be saving anyone.

Again, we look at what you present to support this view...and none of it can be correlated to the passages you use. You blend concepts and create doctrinal positions that don't exist. The best example so far is likening sinning Christians to those who killed prophets.

That was Israel, my friend, not Christians.

Again...all believers are said to be raptured, both dead and alive. Not the dead in Christ and some of us which remain.

That is just a basic fact about the Rapture.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Again, it would behoove you to actually read what I post, and quote it accurately.

Here is what I said, that making such errors of "grammar makes it very difficult to take your postings seriously. It makes the reader wonder of you may be as ignorant of theology as you seem to be of English grammar."

Notice I did not mention any standard, nor did I say that I set your errors as a standard. I clearly used non-specific language. No reader in particular, many readers in general.

Just that if readers are going to see that as a possible guide how they maybe judged by their grammar as indicating they do not know theology or know what they are talking about by other readers, and since knowing that typos are quite common as well as poor grammar, they probably prefer to just be on the outside looking in.

Paul trembled when he spoke.

1 Corinthians 2:2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified. 3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

One could say that he had no confidence in what he was saying, and so it really does place the emphasis on God causing the increase on whatever the forum member types that be of Him.

I can type typos and use poor grammar, but something may get posted that stands out to the reader because the Lord is making that truth stand out to be received by the reader, regardless of how I come across.

But I do applaud the fact you did not include an apostrophe in "yours." One of the very few possessives in English that does not require the apostrophe. (Another being "its.") Well, done.

Thanks. It would be nice if I can avoid mistakes in grammar, but I am human. I am hoping that God is ministering since it is on Him to cause the increase in spite of my obvious shortcomings.

 

[Hark]

This implies a works-based mentality, Hark.

Think about it: you are saying God won't Rapture a sinning believer, when the fact is He saved them as sinners to begin with, didn't He? Aren't we of His House when we are saved?

You are creating a merit system which is not seen in salvation. If God were going to refuse sinners He wouldn't be saving anyone.

Again, we look at what you present to support this view...and none of it can be correlated to the passages you use. You blend concepts and create doctrinal positions that don't exist. The best example so far is likening sinning Christians to those who killed prophets.

That was Israel, my friend, not Christians.

Again...all believers are said to be raptured, both dead and alive. Not the dead in Christ and some of us which remain.

That is just a basic fact about the Rapture.


God bless.

It is not works based if you are trusting Jesus as your Good Shepherd to help you discern and to depart from iniquity. My confidence is in Him to finish running that race as the crowns I receive are really His crowning achievements in me. The crowns are to His glory, not mine.

 

[Darrell C]

It is not works based if you are trusting Jesus as your Good Shepherd to help you discern and to depart from iniquity. My confidence is in Him to finish running that race as the crowns I receive are really His crowning achievements in me. The crowns are to His glory, not mine.

And your confidence is in yourself, Hark, and not very strong in Him. I'm not saying this is what you are doing, I am addressing the mentality. I am quite sure you are trusting Christ to help you, but, you need to better understand that our growth is solely dependent on Him, and obedience. We are obedient to what we know, which allows for Him to increase our knowledge and ability.

Those you imagine being left behind are in fact already left behind if He is not doing what He said He would do...finish the work He began in us. When we strive in our own power we can expect results that fail to meet the production of fruit that is possible.

Your view pictures believers who are going it alone and failing, and ultimately are abandoned to wrath.

Again, we need to trust Christ in our walk. And nowhere in Scripture is there an image of believers being left behind, abandoned, or ignored. Those who sin will pay a penalty in this life, that is, if it is bad enough...they will die.

That we are left to maintain our salvation is works-based, and while you might temper that with them still being saved, it calls into question whether Christ is a Shepherd that actually goes to find the straying sheep, or, if He is holding that sheep in contempt for being dumb enough to stray.


Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.


Your view denies believers are kept by the power of God. It lays maintaining salvation into the hands of the believer.

And while it is true that our obedience is required, it is no different than a child being reared: obedience is relative to their knowledge. We don't make a one year old keep their room clean. We don't make a two year old do chores. So too, with believers, our Father deals with us according to our understanding and ability.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

And your confidence is in yourself, Hark, and not very strong in Him. I'm not saying this is what you are doing, I am addressing the mentality. I am quite sure you are trusting Christ to help you, but, you need to better understand that our growth is solely dependent on Him, and obedience. We are obedient to what we know, which allows for Him to increase our knowledge and ability.

And if a saved believer does not grow in Christ by learning of Him and His words in how to abide in Him as His disciples, then what?

How can he believe in Him to help him follow Him if all he sees Him is, is just as His Saviour and not as His Good Shepherd too?

How can he believe in all His promises to help him walk through this valley of death if he doesn't know them, but just the simplicity of the gospel?

Imagine a babe in Christ unprepared as he walks in this world where the devil is roaming like a lion, seeking whom he may devour.

Those you imagine being left behind are in fact already left behind if He is not doing what He said He would do...finish the work He began in us. When we strive in our own power we can expect results that fail to meet the production of fruit that is possible.

You are the one that sees the three of the four grounds of soil as unsaved whereas the only one good soil as the one saved.

Your view pictures believers who are going it alone and failing, and ultimately are abandoned to wrath.

You would not see them as believers at all, but false professing ones.

Again, we need to trust Christ in our walk. And nowhere in Scripture is there an image of believers being left behind, abandoned, or ignored. Those who sin will pay a penalty in this life, that is, if it is bad enough...they will die.

What do you think is happening to believers when they get left behind in this life? They die.

Was not the church at Thyatira warned to repent or else be cast into the bed of the great tribulation to be killed? Or do you believe they were not really a church and God was wasting His breath warning them to repent when they were not saved in the first place?

That we are left to maintain our salvation is works-based, and while you might temper that with them still being saved, it calls into question whether Christ is a Shepherd that actually goes to find the straying sheep, or, if He is holding that sheep in contempt for being dumb enough to stray.

Did not Christ mention there would be lost ones from the fold in Matthew 18th chapter? Did He not warn believers on how to treat these little ones; the babes in Christ? Did He not say "Moreover... " in regards to the lost when addressing a brother caught in a trespass?

Why are there lost ones? Because not all saved believers will receive the benefit of His disciples caring about them to learn of Jesus Christ and all His promises to us as our Good Shepherd to even apply their faith in Him for that when their sights on just trying to survive in this world.


Philippians 1:6

King James Version (KJV)

6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:


1 Peter 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Your view denies believers are kept by the power of God. It lays maintaining salvation into the hands of the believer.

Jesus is still keeping those saints left behind as He is our faithful Creator keeping their souls in well doing while they suffer the fire coming on the earth and the subsequent great tribulation.

And while it is true that our obedience is required, it is no different than a child being reared: obedience is relative to their knowledge. We don't make a one year old keep their room clean. We don't make a two year old do chores. So too, with believers, our Father deals with us according to our understanding and ability.

And the little ones that were not abiding in Him & His words in according to that lack of knowledge, you would deem them as not saved at all when they are left behind? Not every saved believer will bear fruit as His disciple to be found abiding in Him to be received by the Bridegroom.

Not every saved believer trust Him as their Good Shepherd when their eyes are on the world for living this life, but He is keeping them still even when they are left behind for not being ready to go.

 

[Darrell C]

And if a saved believer does not grow in Christ by learning of Him and His words in how to abide in Him as His disciples, then what?

You have missed the entire point: believers will not fail to grow and abide.

Again, we have entirely different views on what it means to abide. You view it in a sense where Christians are maintaining their salvation, so they may be counted worthy, whereas I see it in John 15 as a call to Israel to embrace Christ.

And you do the same thing you are doing with the other concepts we are discussing, you are not just putting the cart before the horse, you are putting the horse in the cart and attempting to drag it behind you.

Here is why we abide...


John 14:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


(and sorry, computer acting up so I cannot emphasize right now)


This is the Promise Christ and the Old Testament spoke of. You deny these promises with your view. You have the believer abiding in his own power but that is simply not the case.

What do you think the Comforter does in the life of the believer? Sit around and hope a believer does what is right? Do you not understand He gifts us for service? For ministry? And does not fail to teach us? Train us up in the way we should go?

You deny the promise of Ezekiel 36:27 when you impose failure on the part of God to train up His children.


God bless.

 

[Hark]

You have missed the entire point: believers will not fail to grow and abide.

Not all believers will grow and abide, but He will always abide, even in former believers that are among those left behind. That is His faithfulness.

Again, we have entirely different views on what it means to abide. You view it in a sense where Christians are maintaining their salvation, so they may be counted worthy, whereas I see it in John 15 as a call to Israel to embrace Christ.

I view it as saved believers living that reconciled relationship through Jesus Christ by trusting Him as their Good Shepherd to help them to follow Him while living this life on earth in this fallible, but Spirit filled flesh. This is why it is written that the just shall live by faith. I rest in Him as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him.

Not all believers apply that faith in how to follow Him. Some look to keeping their commitment to follow Christ as the means and the power to follow Him which is not of faith.

Not all believers will have Jesus first in their lives but living in this world takes priority for which many will not bear fruit because of that.

Not all believers will grow in the word to be strengthen against the lies in the world and in the church that the word should offend them and turn them away from Him.

And you do the same thing you are doing with the other concepts we are discussing, you are not just putting the cart before the horse, you are putting the horse in the cart and attempting to drag it behind you.

Trusting Him as my Good Shepherd to help me to follow Him and not just trusting Him as my Savior that I am saved is not work base salvation. That is called living by faith.

Here is why we abide...


John 14:16

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;


(and sorry, computer acting up so I cannot emphasize right now)


This is the Promise Christ and the Old Testament spoke of. You deny these promises with your view. You have the believer abiding in his own power but that is simply not the case.

What do you think the Comforter does in the life of the believer? Sit around and hope a believer does what is right? Do you not understand He gifts us for service? For ministry? And does not fail to teach us? Train us up in the way we should go?

You deny the promise of Ezekiel 36:27 when you impose failure on the part of God to train up His children.

That is how He abides in us. That does not say how we abide in Him. John 15 th chapter testifies to how we abide in Him and that is in His words, leaning on Him to help us to abide as we can do nothing without Him.

Israel is not a part of Him to even try to abide in Him. Was Israel abiding in Him as part of the vine in the first place? No. Then saved believers that are part of the vine that are not abiding in His words, will be cut off.

His disciples are chosen; as in chosen to attend the Marriage Supper as many that are called are saved, but few are chosen to attend.

 

[Darrell C]

Did God forsake David, Hark?


God bless.

 

[Hark]

Did God forsake David, Hark?

God bless.

This is going t happen at the rapture for those not ready and found abiding in Him.

Isaiah 54:5 For thy Maker is thine husband; the Lord of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called. 6 For the Lord hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God. 7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the Lord thy Redeemer.

 

[Darrell C]

This is going t happen at the rapture for those not ready and found abiding in Him.

Hence we start back at the beginning, and nothing has been accomplished.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Did God forsake David, Hark?


God bless.

It's a yes or no question, lol.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

One last question, Hark, and have to get going: would you still impose an actual forsaking if, like David, Christ had continued quoting this Psalm?


God bless.