"Original Sin" and Romans 5:12-14

[JamesL]

How about Trinity?

I don't use that word, because it has many faces....egg, water, Persons, yada yada

How about sin nature?

A total farce.

How about "Asking Christ into your heart?

The most heinous false gospel to ever unfiltrate the church. Cancerous plague

 

[Darrell C]

I don't use that word, because it has many faces....egg, water, Persons, yada yada

If you are Trinitarian then you are forced to cede the point.

A total farce.

So men can be born and not sin?

The most heinous false gospel to ever unfiltrate the church. Cancerous plague

So the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are not equated by Christ and Paul?

We are not saved by the indwelling of Christ?

If more people understood that we are asking God to come into us perhaps less people would be confused about the Eternal Indwelling of God at salvation.

Those telling people they need Christ in their heart (which is not the physical organ, most understand that) are witnessing a clearer description of salvation than those who are not.

What do you tell people?


God bless.

 

[JamesL]

If you are Trinitarian then you are forced to cede the point.

I don't cede the point. If ever I'm asked whether I'm a Trinitarian, I ask for a clearly articulated view of what that means - and I make no bones about it, I will not agree with any viewpoint which is not clear.

I've gone round and round here, asking for clarification - to no avail, no less

So men can be born and not sin?

I've never known of anyone who was born a man. Have you?

So the Spirit of God and the Spirit of Christ are not equated by Christ and Paul?

We are not saved by the indwelling of Christ?

If more people understood that we are asking God to come into us perhaps less people would be confused about the Eternal Indwelling of God at salvation.

Those telling people they need Christ in their heart (which is not the physical organ, most understand that) are witnessing a clearer description of salvation than those who are not.

What do you tell people?


God bless.

it's not WHAT a man needs that I'm against. Christ died for the ungodly. A man needs his sins remitted, for him to be cleansed of sin, to be made the righteousness of Christ. The washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.

The cancerous plague comes in the form of false access. Never in scripture is an unbeliever charged with "asking" for Christ to come into his heart, Paul said that's inevitable for those who believe the gospel. Paul said we access this grace through faith, not through begging.

In fact, if one "asks", it's because he does NOT believe.

 

[OldRegular]

I don't cede the point. If ever I'm asked whether I'm a Trinitarian, I ask for a clearly articulated view of what that means - and I make no bones about it, I will not agree with any viewpoint which is not clear.

Do you believe in GOD the Father, GOD the Son, and GOD the Holy Spirit? If not then you are in the same boat as all unbelievers!

 

[JamesL]

Do you believe in Farher, Son, and Holy Spirit? If not then you are in the same boat as all unbelievers!

Hey, OR.
Long time no run into...

I think you well know where I stand. Lol

Couldn't quite nail down exactly where you're at with "Persons" though

 

[OldRegular]

The cancerous plague comes in the form of false access. Never in scripture is an unbeliever charged with "asking" for Christ to come into his heart, Paul said that's inevitable for those who believe the gospel. Paul said we access this grace through faith, not through begging.

In fact, if one "asks", it's because he does NOT believe.

We are in essential agreement here!

 

[percho]

From Psalms 8:4,5 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels,

What is Adam, that thou art mindful of Adam? and the son of Adam that thou visitest him? For thou has made Adam a little lower than the angels.

What does that in bold mean? Is that verse speaking of the Adam, man, of Genesis 1:26,27?

In what manner was he made/created a little lower than the angels?

 

[JamesL]

I would like your understanding of these three verses and of course use any other scripture if you like.

KJV 1 Cor 15:44-46 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

My understanding.
I think a few things to consider are; Adam, the first man, was created a little lower than the angels. I assume that to mean, that which was made from the dust of the ground, made up the flesh and blood, without life until God breathed into it the, breath of life, spirit of life, and then what was made from the ground became, living soul, the natural body. (ψυχικός, psychikos, soulish body) A body whose life ( ζωή zōē) comes from a source other than itself.

From the above verses it appears to me that after the resurrection there will be a spiritual body, quickened, with life within itself, Christ will quicken whom he will.

Consider Jesus was made a little lower than the angels. Consider Jesus, to date, is the only one to have experienced the afterward of verse 45, the being raised.

Consider: John 5:21 first part. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth. Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead. John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; John 5:21 last part. even so the Son quickeneth whom he will.

What is quickened? Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Christ in you the hope of glory. Hope, the adoption, the redemption of the body Rom 8:23,24.

Was Adam created a natural body, of the flesh, carnal if you will and did he at the moment of his creation need to be born from above? Was it not before his creation, foreordained, the Christ to shed his blood for redemption? Who was going to need redemption? Adam, man. Not, if he sinned but because he was going to sin.

Hey, percho.
I apologize for not getting to your post right away.

As for the natural vs. spiritual body, it is very helpful to dispel a very common false dichotomy.

Most seem to think that natural = physical
And that spritual = spirit form (or something like that)

But looking at all the contrasts that Paul used there, every single word used to describe the former state, was used by him elsewhere in relation to sinfulness.

So corruptible, mortal, perishable, weakness and natural are all various ways of saying - sin wrecked

Then the contrast is incorruptible, immortal, imperishable, power, spiritual are all various ways of saying NOT sin wrecked.

Christ took upon Himself sinful flesh. Not that He became a sinner, but that His body was able to die because it was sin-wrecked.

His body was laid in a tomb sin-wrecked, and raised glorious

 

[Darrell C]

I don't cede the point. If ever I'm asked whether I'm a Trinitarian, I ask for a clearly articulated view of what that means - and I make no bones about it, I will not agree with any viewpoint which is not clear.

I've gone round and round here, asking for clarification - to no avail, no less

You think you don't cede the point, but, I ask you, do you even recall what the point was?

As far as a definition of the Trinity, is not a common definition "We believe there is One God in Three Persons," and, "We do not believe in three Gods" the basic definition?

I too dislike the egg analogy, because an egg is comprised of three different forms or states, so can be distinguished as separate elements.

For me, trying to explain this is easiest when we consider God's relationship with man: when He interacts directly, we speak of the Son; when He is in His Eternal Glory, we speak of the Father; when He interacts i the heart, we speak of the Spirit.

And at no time does the throne of Heaven sit vacant. When the Son manifested among men, He was still in Heaven, and despite the arguments of some He makes this very clear. Furthermore, When He was in Heaven, while manifested in flesh, we can safely say He was also on the other side of the World continuing His ministry among Gentiles.

He, the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...are One.

I've never known of anyone who was born a man. Have you?

"Man" is a general term referring to humanity, my friend. I would think you would know this and your facetious attitude is both excused...and appreciated.

it's not WHAT a man needs that I'm against. Christ died for the ungodly. A man needs his sins remitted, for him to be cleansed of sin, to be made the righteousness of Christ. The washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit.

First, cleansing is a two part process according to Scripture, which involves the washing of the water of the Word as well as forgiveness. We are not forgiven so we can be cleansed, we are cleansed through remission of sins.

Secondly, we are "cleansed by regeneration," and then we have the "renewing of the Holy Ghost," which I also see as a two part process.

Man is born outside of relationship with God, having lost relationship through Adam('s sin). I view the renewing of the Holy Ghost to speak of Reconciliation, rather than man being the subject of imposed process, which is already covered in "the washing of regeneration."

That is what man needs, that is...to be brought back into relationship with God.

Atonement and Reconciliation cannot be divided, because there is no salvation unless both take place.

Now we go back to "Asking Jesus to come into your heart:" This is exactly what happens in salvation.

Prior to salvation in Christ man's heart can be seen in Peter's statement here:



Acts 8:18-21

King James Version (KJV)

18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.

20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.


Now, one last point about regeneration:



Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


We do not obey the will of God because we were "washed with clean water, received a new heart, received a new Spirit," we obey the will of God because He has put His Spirit within us.

Man cannot replicate God and obey His will in his own power, there is always a reliance on God Himself.


Galatians 2:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.


Some will disagree, but I view the "Faith" in view here to literally be Christ's, All we do which is righteous has but one basis, and that is the Cross of Christ.

We need...

...Jesus in our hearts, James.

The cancerous plague comes in the form of false access. Never in scripture is an unbeliever charged with "asking" for Christ to come into his heart, Paul said that's inevitable for those who believe the gospel. Paul said we access this grace through faith, not through begging.

Cancerous plague? lol

And, it's inevitable?

And not sure where you introduce "begging" into this, but, I have no shame to
say that when I repented of my sin I did in fact beg God to save me. We can substitute begging with pleading. I begged, I plead. I was in the throes of fear in light of the truth He revealed to me. I knew at that moment that I was headed for Hell, and that I was a sinner that was an affront to Holy God.

In fact, if one "asks", it's because he does NOT believe.

That's the whole point of this...



John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


The Comforter convicts unbelievers of sin. He did that for me, He did that for you, so, there is no shame embracing your true position in this Universe when you were saved, my friend: a beggar in desperate need of the Savior.


God bless.