Sinless

[JamesL]

Most believers I've spoken with have no formulated doctrine on this issue. Do you? Will we actually be sinless in heaven?

If so, is it a behavioral issue? That we will no longer commit sins? Or is it more like a disease, one which is (or will be) healed?

If your answer is other than no, when will this come about? When will we literally be (or become) sinless?

Does Scripture speak to this issue?

 

[Darrell C]

Most believers I've spoken with have no formulated doctrine on this issue. Do you? Will we actually be sinless in heaven?

If so, is it a behavioral issue? That we will no longer commit sins? Or is it more like a disease, one which is (or will be) healed?

If your answer is other than no, when will this come about? When will we literally be (or become) sinless?

Does Scripture speak to this issue?

I'm going to have this some thought because it is a question I haven't really given much thought to before, nor tried to present a Biblical view for my conclusion.

I will just say that I have a general perception that when we leave this realm (the physical) that we will enter into the Realm of Heaven, and that while I would not go so far to say that it is impossible for sin to occur there (i.e., Lucifer), I do not see that as something that would happen on a regular basis, and for it to happen would be an extraordinary event.

Consider:

Revelation 21

King James Version (KJV)


3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.


I view all sin that takes place here as a result, ultimately, of the Fall. Man is born out of relationship with God, thus has no ability to be righteous from an Heavenly or Eternal perspective. And while God promised to put His Spirit within us to cause us to walk in His Statutes and to keep His judgments, one factor is that most of us lived a life of sin prior to conversion, the impact perhaps summed up in "Give God as much time to fix your life as you took to mess it up."

So sin in Heaven, or the Eternal State would be like snow theft in Alaska in the winter, in my opinion. Or anti-war demonstrations in a marine barracks.

Great topic.


God bless.

 

[OldRegular]

YES!

 

[Pastor_Bob]

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I believe these and other verses teach that the saved child of God will be changed into a glorified body when we die or are taken in the rapture.

 

[JamesL]

1Jn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

I believe these and other verses teach that the saved child of God will be changed into a glorified body when we die or are taken in the rapture.

Do you think the spirit (or soul) will be changed too? Or just the body?

 

[JamesL]

YES!

Care to elaborate?
Lol

 

[360watt]

I know that when we are saved, justified.. then we have had the payment of sin made.. and been given imputed righteousness..not of our own.

We still sin though. So obviously we have two natures after being saved. The nature of living after God empowered by His Holy Spirit, which He has indwelled in every believer..

and the sin nature.. since we are still human and flawed.

So scripture speaks of believers before they die of not being sinless. Their future sin is not held against them for entering heaven, because it has been paid for, but they are flawed.

Only in heaven will a believer ever be sinless. New body.. no sin.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The Bible (specifically Paul) speaks of the believer as being a new creation: 'Old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new' (2 Cor. 5:17). But the Bible also speaks of there being a 'relic' of our old sinful nature remaining in our 'flesh' (Romans 7:18) or in our 'mortal bodies' which leads us into sin and which we are to keep under (Romans 6:12; Galatians 5:16-17, 24).

I take it then that when we exchange this old body for a new spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:42-44), sin will be something in the past (v.49). Smile

 

[kyredneck]

YES!

....you hillbilly.

 

[JamesL]

I'm going to have this some thought because it is a question I haven't really given much thought to before, nor tried to present a Biblical view for my conclusion....

Interesting, indeed

 

[JamesL]

....Only in heaven will a believer ever be sinless. New body.. no sin.

I take it then that when we exchange this old body for a new spiritual body (1 Cor. 15:42-44), sin will be something in the past (v.49). Smile

Do you believe (as it seems pastor bob might) that we receive a new body at the tine we die, and that there is no corporate resurrection? Saints in heaven would already have their glorified body? That there really is no condition of being absent from the body as Paul wrote?

Or do you believe saints who are in heaven now are actually absent from the body? And if theyre absent from the body, present with the Lord, but won't be sinless until the resurrection, does that mean disembodied saints in heaven are still sinning now?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Do you believe (as it seems pastor bob might) that we receive a new body at the tine we die, and that there is no corporate resurrection? Saints in heaven would already have their glorified body? That there really is no condition of being absent from the body as Paul wrote?

Or do you believe saints who are in heaven now are actually absent from the body? And if theyre absent from the body, present with the Lord, but won't be sinless until the resurrection, does that mean disembodied saints in heaven are still sinning now?

It is the shedding of the old body that is the crucial thing, I think.
Therefore I take it that in the 'intermediate state' we shall be sinless.

 

[JamesL]

It is the shedding of the old body that is the crucial thing, I think.
Therefore I take it that in the 'intermediate state' we shall be sinless.

So, if one can be sinless apart from the body, when and how does the immaterial part of a man become sinless?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So, if one can be sinless apart from the body, when and how does the immaterial part of a man become sinless?

May I just refer you to my O.P.?
Why don't you tell us what you think?

 

[kyredneck]

how does the immaterial part of a man become sinless?

9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God. 1 Jn 3

Evidently there's a part of us now that is already, and always will be, 'sinless'.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

9 Whosoever is begotten of God doeth no sin, because his seed abideth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is begotten of God. 1 Jn 3

Evidently there's a part of us now that is already, and always will be, 'sinless'.

You got it! 'Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me' (Rom. 7:20). That's an amazing statement! I wouldn't dare say such a thing, so I'm glad the Holy Spirit says it for me.

 

[kyredneck]

You got it! 'Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me' (Rom. 7:20). That's an amazing statement! I wouldn't dare say such a thing, so I'm glad the Holy Spirit says it for me.

It jibes with the type:

After all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

But the Exodus Generation still yet reaped (IN THIS TEMPORAL REALM) for their wickedness after being redeemed from Egypt, they wandered for forty years in the waste places when they could have possessed the promised land.

Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.
(3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God? Ro 3)

 

[percho]

You got it! 'Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me' (Rom. 7:20). That's an amazing statement! I wouldn't dare say such a thing, so I'm glad the Holy Spirit says it for me.

It jibes with the type:

After all the wickedness Israel had done in the wilderness after leaving Egypt (unbelief, disobedience, murmuring, idolatry, fornication, rebellion, etc.), and even with Balaam wanting so badly to curse Israel, God made Balaam to declare:

He hath not beheld iniquity in Jacob; Neither hath he seen perverseness in Israel: Jehovah his God is with him, And the shout of a king is among them. Nu 23:21
(Blessed is the man to whom, the Lord will not reckon sin. Ro 4:8)

But the Exodus Generation still yet reaped (IN THIS TEMPORAL REALM) for their wickedness after being redeemed from Egypt, they wandered for forty years in the waste places when they could have possessed the promised land.

Yet during all their wandering/chastening in the Wilderness He still yet gave them shade by day and light by night, He fed them manna, gave them water, their clothes never wore out, their feet didn't blister, etc., He was with them always.
(3 For what if some were without faith? shall their want of faith make of none effect the faithfulness of God? Ro 3)

Amen brothers, Hebrews 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Then all we will need is:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? Rom 7:24
Romans 8:23-25
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

That's the way I understand, IT.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Do you think the spirit (or soul) will be changed too? Or just the body?

The soul is changed at the moment of salvation. The new man that is born in us is incapable of sin.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Paul makes it clear as well when he says:
Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

So, we have already been changed into a new creature. All that is lacking is for us to take off the old robe of flesh and put on the new robe of our glorified body. This happens at death or at the Rapture.

 

[tyndale1946]

The soul is changed at the moment of salvation. The new man that is born in us is incapable of sin.
Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Paul makes it clear as well when he says:
Romans 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

So, we have already been changed into a new creature. All that is lacking is for us to take off the old robe of flesh and put on the new robe of our glorified body. This happens at death or at the Rapture.

I am always coming up with questions so this seem to be on my mind... Will we have the same body that Adam had when God first created him before the fall?... Adam and God communed together and there was no separation and sin had not yet entered into the world... Or will be a different body as Adams according to the plan of his Sovereign God was prone to fall... And Did... Or is our glorious resurrected body something else?... Brother Glen