Featured Hebrews 6 Dilemma

That would be you. The statement is very clear, and while you deny a need to understand the original meaning of the Greek, you intermingle understanding of the passage that is not derived from the English.

In view is apostasy of those ignorant of even the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ.

In view are those who...


Hebrews 6:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:


...and those...


8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


We do not have a single, solitary passage in Scripture that teaches a Christians' end is to be burned. The closest we come to that is in regards to rewards in 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, and not only is it clear that is is not the believer in view, but the works he has accomplished (or lack thereof), but Paul is clear that they "will be saved."

You are missing the teaching altogether.

Again, where do you see "the finished work of Christ" in Hebrews?

Quote a verse that makes this statement in the King's English.

It's there, but we are not going to know that unless we consult the original language.

How do you think you got an English translation, Tom?

Perhaps you could tell me what being dull of hearing means.


God bless.

 

When I began study of Hebrews I was not satisfied with the "Hypothetical Argument" some presented, which basically stated that the entire statement was hypothetical, meaning it couldn't happen at all. But the text makes it clear that there are two groups contrasted, the one you point out which the Writer and his fellows were confident about, and the group whose end was to be burned.

It is sad that so many use this passage and Hebrews 10:26 to teach loss of salvation, because it undermines the intent of the Writer (and ultimately the Holy Ghost) and the warning.

I don't know about you, but every time I have ever heard this passage used, they never include Hebrews 5 as the prologue to the warning. They never use Hebrews 10:27-29 either.

What translation are you using above?


God bless.

 

NIV.

Well, Jesus stated if He could deny the Father, so I tend to think that's the tone of which this Hebrews writer was employing under the Spirit's inspiration.

 

Agree with all of this.

And this is the point which is disputed among the brethren: can Christians become apostate.

The answer is no, not in the sense that we see here, which makes it clear two groups are in view, those who receive blessing from God, and those whose end is to be burned.

And Christians do not end up being burned. That terminology is reserved for unbelievers at all times.

But we do not see that presented in Scripture. Enlightenment has to do with revelation of truth by God to men.

Always.

And under New Covenant conditions when baptism is in view we can easily see the difference between the ceremony or ritual of water baptism and spiritual baptism.

The current text only mentions the foundational teachings of the Hebrew Scriptures, and as Friel pointed in his teaching, correctly we see a plurality of washings, which refer to the washings seen under the Law.

There is no correlation to enlightenment where we would make these two terms synonymous.

Just because an early Christian father spoke about this as synonymous doesn't mean Scripture does.

And will pause there to keep the next portion of your post together.


Continued...

 

The Writer of Hebrews, yes.

The NIV, no. I Have only quickly examined the text but I see no reference of "loss" there.


God bless.

 

Only if we wanted to make these terms synonymous could we give a moment of credibility to this concept. Enlightenment in Hebrews 6:4 has to do with the knowledge of God. Specifically the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which is the knowledge, the revelation provided by the very Spirit the Writer will speak of the apostates "doing despite unto" in Hebrews 10:29.

I would need to see in Scripture where water baptism is equated to "enlightenment."

Correct. And we see men enlightened prior to Christ's coming (John 1:9).

And the single argument I would present in regards to the correlation sought to be made is that Christ never baptized with water. The Baptism He does effect is the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which is of course spiritual.

Doesn't mean we impose a meaning of water baptism into the text. Batptisms are mentioned, and an express command not to lay down the foundational teaching of baptisms (Doctrine of Washings). We can't therefore equate something that is foundational (which these First Century Hebrews were familiar with from the Law (the Scripture, the First Principles of the Oracles of God, Hebrews 5:12) to that which is esperienced by Christians, which is not water Baptism, but being baptized into Christ, which speaks of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.

When this is prophesied by John the Baptist, two groups are seen there as well (and this is the fundamental failure of most who try to interpret this passage, they only see one group, that is, Christians):


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


No mention of water in regards to the baptizing Christ will do. It will either be salvation (and gathered into His garner), or judgment...burned up with unquenchable fire.

This is reiterated by Christ in Acts 1:4-5, and by Paul in Acts 19:3-4.

At no time does John equate enlightenment with being baptized into Christ.

All men are enlightened but not all men are baptized into Christ.

John is referring to the revelation of truth versus darkness, which is what men lay under.

No, they are precisely who he says they are. Note the condition of those rebuked and warned:




Hebrews 5:11-14

King James Version (KJV)

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

In Hebrews 6:1 they are still in need of progressing from the First Principles of Christ as found in the Hebrew Scriptures, which means their understanding is still that of Old Testament teachings, hence the command not to lay again those foundational teachings.

In Hebrews 6:6 the danger of falling away is possible...do you think Christians become apostate and end up being burned?

The warning, if it is to be summed up, is "Don't be slothful," a condition that they have hopes is not the case with the audience as a whole, though the warning is given anyway:



Hebrews 6:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


Two groups are in view. This is always the case in every warning in Hebrews.


Continued...

 

Here are a few examples of Scripture teaching unbelievers being enlightened to truth.

We start first with the Ministry of the Comforter:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


Here is another example:

2 Peter 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


Here the focus is on False Teachers, who are no more saved than the false prophets they are correlated to in 2 Peter 2:1.

They knew the truth.

I am guessing you are trying to impose a Calvinistic view which teaches men have to be regenerate in order to understand the spiritual things of God, which is not the case. 2 Peter should make that clear.

You have already supplied John 1:9. Now understand that in a universal sense in which it is given (which is not a bestowing of salvation but the knowledge necessary for that to take place), then consider that the Son of God declared, made known to men...God. Understand that those who rejected Him in John 1:11 were enlightened.

We see the same concept John uses here:


Matthew 4:14-17

King James Version (KJV)

14 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying,

15 The land of Zabulon, and the land of Nephthalim, by the way of the sea, beyond Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles;

16 The people which sat in darkness saw great light; and to them which sat in the region and shadow of death light is sprung up.

17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.


God has always enlightened natural men, this is necessary, because the natural man has no light in him of himself. He has no understanding of the spiritual things of God.


Continued...

 

And we still have to maintain the context of the passage.

No-one is denying that what the Writer states happened, it is what those things mean.

And if one thinks only Christians can be said to experience the things he lists, then of course they are going to conclude that this is speaking of Christians not being renewed to repentance. They are going to think Christians are "crucifying to themselves the Son of God afresh."

So tell me...what does it mean to crucify the Son of God afresh?

There is only one thing it can mean to First Century Jews...offering up Christ again in figure.

Again, the contrast between the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant are in view, and those rebuked and warned are those who have not embraced Christ, because they don't even understand the First Principles of the Doctrines of Christ.

And this doesn't change what is in view.

What you have to do is identify what this means, and who could do it.

A similar error is made in Hebrews 10:26, where the willful sin in view is thought to be general sin. It's not, the context is specifically centered on the sacrifices of the Law as opposed to the Sacrifice for Christ.

And despite the fact that those guilt are clarified to be adversaries (of Christ), and rejecting of Christ, His Sacrifice, and the Holy Ghost (Hebrews 10:27-29), some will conclude what the Writer means is that he is speaking about Christians who sin intentionally on a general level.

He defines the sin in Hebrews 10:29, even as he defines who is in view in Hebrews 6.

Agree with everything except the first word.

Christians are not in view, but, Hebrews associated with Christians.

This is the same throughout the Book, what is valid contrasted with what is not.

Here...


Hebrews 2

King James Version (KJV)

2 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip.

2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward;

3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;


People are going to view this in two ways: the first is that the warning is to Hebrews not to disregard the Gospel, the second is believers haphazardly handling their salvation.

The first fits with the Book of Hebrews, the second makes men self saving.

And the Book of Hebrews, above all Books, make it clear that salvation is only accomplished by Christ.

Now notice in the above that again...a contrast is made between those who believe, and those who don't. We see the same warning we see in Hebrews 4:1-3, Hebrews 5:11-14, Hebrews 6:7-8, and Hebrews 10:26-29.

The central theme in these warnings is "Progress from the Covenant of Law unto the New Covenant (and all that entails)."


God bless.

 

Jesus said " It is finished".

yep, many misunderstand. The verse has nothing said about loosing salvation. It asks a question, as the Hebrew and modern Jewish manner , with null, or impossible as an answer.. We English types have said "who died and made you king?" when someone becomes bossy or something,, Both have the answer. no one died and we cannot crucify Christ afresh

 

My question remains unanswered...where do you see the word finished in Hebrews.


God bless.

 

Not nitpicking, but it's "losing," not loosing. That is just a pet peeve of mine.

And the text is clear, they are crucifying to themselves again the Son of God, and...bringing Him to an open shame.

It's not a question that demands a negative response. It is a direct statement, "It is impossible to renew them again unto repentance...if..."


Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)



4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,


5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,


6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.



God bless.

 

This is not a problem with translation, The Greek is the same meaning, It does not or even imply one can loose salvation, quite the opposite.

READ the verses, with punctuation without verse distinction to see the meaning clearly

 

Beginning the study of Hebrews 6 with the preconceived assumption that Christians cannot become apostates, and then believing that it is “clear”, based upon that preconceived assumption, that “two groups are in view, those who receive blessing from God, and those whose end is to be burned” is not sound exegesis; it is manipulating the scriptures to force them to be in harmony with the preconceived assumption that Christians cannot become apostate. Not only that, the preconceived assumption that Christians cannot become apostate requires that numerous passages of Scripture be interpreted in a manner that does violence to their clear and obvious meaning. Indeed, their meaning is so clear and obvious that for the first 1,500 years of the church they were universally understood by Christians to teach that Christians could lose their salvation by becoming apostates—and they have continued to be so understood by the very large majority of the Church down to this day.

Furthermore, Christians who approach Hebrews 6 without the preconceived assumption that Christians cannot become apostates but with a desire to learn whether this particular chapter in the Bible does or does not teach such a thing are free to objectively study the words that God has given to us in His inspired word. Then, the “heavenly gift” is seen to be the gift of salvation, and these people experienced it! David L. Allen, dean of the School of Theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, writes on page 349 of his commentary on Hebrews in the New American Commentary series, “The Greek word for ‘tasted’ is the same here as in v. 5, and is used metaphorically indicating “to eat or drink,” thus experiencing fully, not merely a superficial participation in something. There is no connotation in the word itself of tasting and not swallowing. This can be seen from the usage in Heb 2:9 where Jesus “tasted” death for everyone, meaning he experienced the full force of physical death….To become a ‘partaker’ of the Holy Spirit indicates primarily ‘participation in’ and denotes a close association with the Holy Spirit, implying the reception of the Holy Spirit into one’s life.”

I am thankful that I am not enslaved to a system of theology that tells its captives how to think and what the Bible says; but rather I am free to carefully, prayerfully, and objectively study the words that God has given to us in His inspired word.

 

I'll just stick with this question: where do you see "the finished work of Christ" in Hebrews?


God bless.

 

Before I respond to this post going to stop there and ask you to present passages from Scripture of born again believers becoming apostate.

I have presented a number of posts in this thread that deal with the text and do not incorporate a mingling of concepts, but deal with the texts in view.

So dispel my "preconceived notion that Christians cannot become apostate," and this by providing Scripture which shows Christians becoming Apostate, as well as address those posts which deal with that subject already.

I am out of time, so will have to come back to this, so ask you to support this first statement.


God bless.

 

He is not talking about God permitting one growing to perfection, this is available to as the rain falls on all, both good (herb)and bad (thorns). It is the writer saying, he will review the basic elements of salvation, if God permits, but not know, the writer wants to speak on perfection.

 

Heb 10:12

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

 

I don't see the word finished.

I don't see "the finished work of the Cross."


God bless

 

Where do you see the word review in the text?


God bless.

 

are you kidding, one normally is finished workwhen they sit.

The writer of Hebrews is comparing the Law and the completed work of Jesus, How could the comparison be made if it was a work in progress