Featured Hebrews 6 Dilemma

That is not perdition in it's ultimate culmination.

Have to get going but here is a link where you can look at this topic.

Just to present a few verses where we see perdition reach it's culmination, consider...


2 Peter 2:1

King James Version (KJV)

2 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.



Revelation 17:8

King James Version (KJV)

8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


You are suggesting "perdition" in the life of the believer, which seems to be the opposite of what you have been arguing. The "destruction" in view for the believer is not Hell (which I know you already know) but applies in the temporal sense. Believers can ultimately be destroyed by God in the flesh (Acts 5:4-5, 1 Corinthians 11:29-30), but, as you have already pointed out, they are not in danger of Hell.


God bless.

 

kyredneck

If we are speaking of Hebrews we are speaking of eternal perdition. Chapter 12 deals with discipline of Christians so the warnings are real warnings, to real people.

okay

Do you get a "feeling of vindication" if you warn your little grandchild not to touch the hot stove but they go ahead, touch it, and get burned? Or is your warning meant to prevent them from the danger?

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Brother ...you are welcome to your opinion as I am to mine. I see the warnings as real warnings to real people, with eternal consequences other than only temporal.
If I am wrong about it.....I would cause some anxiety to someone who by application applied those warnings to themselves in our day. You if were wrong it would be tragic

No....it is not either or is it?

KYRED...can we set our minds on things above, and at the same time maintain a biblical discipline in this life here and now as part of the means God has ordained to get us to heaven.......Jesus said "watch and pray".....do we ignore this? Do we ignore it because we read God has predestined His elect to go to heaven???? or having our minds set on the things above use it as motivation and encouragement to press on????

12 Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God

[/QUOTE]

 

Spoken like a true blue Puritan. It's our 'Christian discipline' that ultimately delivers us from the eternal fire. Heaven will only be comprised of diligent, disciplined, productive Christians. That's so encouraging.

You mean like my faith in God's faithfulness will result in some burning in hell for all infinity?

And your message of hell fire damnation will result in some going to heaven?

And you claim to hold to the doctrines of grace?

 

Could you clarify if you are saying that Christians can end up in Hell, and that you see the warnings in Hebrews as warnings of eternal judgment to Christians? I am not saying you are saying that, just seeking clarification.

I agree Hebrews 12 deals with discipline concerning Christians, but, we see again the two groups in view:


Hebrews 12:5-8

King James Version (KJV)

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


We have legitimate sons contrasted with illegitimate sons. And the chastisement here cannot be the judgment that awaits the illegitimate among a professing "people of God," because the illegitimate do not receive chastisement, which would mean that we have something in view entirely different than the eternal judgment the Writer does warn about throughout this Book.


God bless.

 

Darrel C:

Very good.

 

Yes .....I hold the doctrines of grace and you do not see it clearly as your hyper cal

Christians do not end up in hell.
When this is written you have Jews trying to avoid the persecution as Christians by going back to synagogues to worship. It was legal, Christianity was not.
The rain is doctrine....see deut32....thorns and brier are apostates who Cannot receive the rain.....they get burned.

 

What you have here is what is portrayed in Psalm 73. God's people are disciplined by God for their own good. 'Every branch that bears fruit He prunes that it may bear more fruit.' But the wicked very often are not disciplined by God. 'Their eyes bulge with abundance; they have more than their heart could wish. They scoff and speak wickedly concerning oppression........etc.' (Psalm 73:7-8). Why was there a famine in Israel in Ruth's day, but not in Moab? Because, whilst Israel is disciplined to bring him back to God, Moab's sin awaits him without remedy at the Last day.
'Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction.....' (v.18).

 

You are forgetting that the briers are the results of the rain, and how the two groups are impacted by "the rain" distinguishes them from each other:


Hebrews 6:7-8

King James Version (KJV)

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


The rain is given to illustrate the Ministry of the Holy Ghost just spoken. Note the "for" which v.7 begins with.

Now let's look at it all together:



Hebrews 6:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


But the Writer has better hope of the result of the Holy Ghost in their lives...


9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.


It illustrates the Holy Ghost ministering to the earth (vv.4-6) and the outcomes. The warning centers on those who fall away. They have received this ministry but the end result is rejection, thus, they are the bearing no fruit, but thorns and briers.

It is not Christians "whose end is to be burned (which always represents eternal judgment), but those who respond to the Comforter as stated in v.6.


God bless.

 

That is absolutely correct. But the single element you are leaving out is...this is dealing with Israel.

This is why we call it the Epistle to the Hebrews.

This is true in John 15 as well.

Don't you love the consistency here?

We have the same group in view, the Hebrew people, and the same judgment that befell unbelievers in the Wilderness is still applicable in the day of this writing, as well as in our modern setting. God has not changed how He deals with Israel.

Look at Chs. 3-4, you see the same statement: unbelievers perish, believers enter into rest. You are applying the imagery of pruning and cutting out when the context is temporal. Chastisement is not referring to eternal judgment, it is the pruning of the believer.

So I will reiterate the point you have not addressed: there are two groups in the passage, legitimate (who are chastised because they are children/sons), and illegitimate.

If you make this a matter of good Christian/bad Christian, it is tantamount to trying to have Paul teaching how to properly pick between believer and unbeliever in regards to a Bishop. In other words, you are taking instruction that is solely for the Church and applying it to everyone.

Two groups in every warning in Hebrews, just as there are two groups here.


God bless.

 

OK:

10 For as the rain cometh down and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, and giveth seed to the sower and bread to the eater;
11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

It's entirely probable that many Jewish Christians perished in the wrath that came upon 'that generation':

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18

By returning to that apostate whore they did indeed "fellowship with her sins".

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries. Heb 10

32 Remember Lot`s wife. Lu 17

 

I take it as read that the Bible speaks to everyone. The Letter to the Hebrews was speaking to a largely Jewish church (very possibly the one at Jerusalem), but for that reason I'm not going to ignore it because I'm not Jewish. 'There is neither Jew nor Greek.......for you are all one in Christ Jesus' (Gal/ 3:28). There is only one people of God (Ephesians 2:14-15).

Doubtless the Christians in Jerusalem were going through a hard time, and I think it is evident that some were being tempted to return to Judaism. The writer to the Hebrews is telling them not to be surprised by the tough time they're going through (cf. 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Peter 4:12) because it's the lot of all Christians (Acts 14:22). I see the 'illegitimate sons' as being false believers which the Hebrew Christians would be if they returned to Judaism to avoid persecution in the same way that Ephesian or other Gentile Christians would be if they returned to Paganism.

 

Hodge's first rule of scripture interpretation:
1. The Scriptures are to be taken in the sense attached to them in the age and by the people to whom they were addressed.

26 For if we sin wilfully .... Heb 10

So is this just any ol' sin? Or do we apply audience relevance to clarify it?

 

What are you suggesting here? Do you think Charles Hodge ignored the letter to the Hebrews because he wasn't Jewish?

Given the context, the sin is that of apostasy, turning one's back upon Christ. However, the tense of the verb is Present, suggesting continuous action, so you might like to consider Heb. 10:26 together with Romans 6:1-2. It is not possible for a true Christian to continue in a state of sin indefinitely, whatever that sin may be.

 

No need to get silly about it.

 

Ask a silly question........

 

Okay, so let's apply that to the Bible.

This means that you need to fulfill the Covenant of Law, right?

See the problem? You are not going to be able to apply that principle to Scripture and maintain a credible view.

The Law was given to Israel specifically, with an allowance for the foreigner. However (and this is a primary thrust of the Writer of Hebrews), God has made obsolete the Law, and hence the necessity to understand who he is speaking to specifically.

The Bible is "speaking to everyone," I agree, but, we have to keep in mind that when thee is an intended audience, we don't generalize. For example, the Bible was not "speaking to everyone" here...



Genesis 6:13-14

King James Version (KJV)

13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.


God was not speaking to everyone here...


Matthew 10:5-7

King James Version (KJV)

5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.


While we understand the Bible is for everyone, here there is a specific audience, which, if we generalize (and most do), we are going to miss a significant point which ultimately impacts our Theology.

That's a false argument: just because we recognize the audience doesn't mean we nullify application of the teachings to the Church fram a general standpoint.

No-one is arguing "Hebrews isn't relevant to the Church of today."

But that wasn't always the case...was it?

Could men in ancient times say "Well the Law is actually for everyone, so here is what we are going to do, we are going to effect Levitical Services regardless of Tribe or Nation."

And again you are missing the entire point: there is one People of God, but, in Hebrews you are making unbelievers to be that People.

You keep ignoring that point, Martin.

In view are legitimate sons and illegitimate. The exhortation goes to the People of God, and they are distinguished from those who are not sons.

And the passage does address that.

But, the bottom line is that those who were being warned, not from "going back to Judaism," are those who had their feet in both faiths.

And when the warning speaks of eternal judgment, we know that it is not Christians in view, because this conflicts with what Scripture teaches elsewhere.

Christians do not need to fear "being burned," which always, always, always...

...speaks of eternal judgment.

Not chastisement.

If they are illegitimate sons, and false believers...

...they aren't Christians.

You are imposing a status of salvation that is not in the text, and is not to be found in Hebrews anywhere.

The "rain" of ch.6 represents the very ministries performed by the Comforter in the lives if natural men, and thee will be two results: blessing, or burning.

So unless you properly identify who the warning is going out to, you will confuse the instruction, exhortation, and warning, misapplying them because you have an unbeliever standing in the place of a believer.

When you preach, Martin, do you assume that everyone is saved? Or do you warn your congregation about Hell because you know that it is likely someone there needs to come to Christ, despite the fact he/she associates with Christians in your fellowship?

No different in Hebrews.

Now, let me ask you this, Martin: can you distinguish in the Psalms when the Psalmist is speaking in general terms about man and when he is speaking specifically about Israel?

How about in the Prophets?

How about in the Law (Pentateuch)?

Would you find someone in error if they changed the specific address in those Books?


God bless.

 

Again, this is a false argument.

No-one is deny application of Scripture, simply pointing out specific audience.

You would be incorrect to think that: Christians can continue in a state of sin and receive the same penalty we see imposed for sin throughout Scripture...

...death.

That does not mean that Hebrews is speaking of God dealing with sin in the temporal perspective in regards to the warnings erroneously used to teach loss of salvation.

We distinguish the temporal in Hebrews 12, for example, but, in Hebrews 10 Christians are not in view...apostates are.

I am always amazed that someone can consider those who tread underfoot the Son of God, count His Sacrifice unholy, and resist the Holy Spirit...

...as Christians sinning.

Again, two groups in view, those who draw back, and those who save to the believing of the soul ("soul" a reference to the person in totality, rather than the immaterial aspect of man's existence).

In Hebrews 10:26-29, consider the relevance of speaking to a people in regards to the rejection of God by Israel in the past (and of course we can expand that to all who came under the Law, including the foreigner). The simple lesson is "If they were punished for rejecting the First Covenant, how much sorer do you think those who reject the New Covenant are going to be punished?"

It's not speaking about Christians sinning, it is speaking about those of Israel rejecting God's will for them.


God bless.

 

Great parallel (Isaiah).

But, because our views differ so greatly in regards to "the People of God," we are going to have a hard time coming to agreement on some very important issues.

I do not equate the relationship God formed with the Nation of Israel with the relationship He forms under New Covenant conditions.

That is why both Jew and Greek are made one...both still needed to be redeemed through Christ.

And the result is the Church, the Body of Christ.

Now how my view impacts my approach to Hebrews is this: we have an Hebrew speaking to Hebrews. The examples are exclusively of Israel, pertaining to Israel, and would have been understood by Israel.

Above you have presented quotes from a number of different passages in order to establish a point. We need to exegete Hebrews instead.

So let's look at your quote from Hebrews:

So who is in view?Who is the "adversary?"

The Writer tells us:



Hebrews 10:28-29

King James Version (KJV)

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


Both speak of the ones who reject...not sinning Christians.

Do you feel that (1) people were saved simply by being members of Israel, and (2) that the ones rejecting Moses' Law were saved?

If you say yes, then you have bypassed the Writer already clarifying they were not:


Hebrews 3:17-19

King James Version (KJV)

17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?

18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?

19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.


And here we see that who is in view are those who are clearly identified as unbelievers. No different in Hebrews 10:26-29.

They received punishment. The Writer asks how much worse will it be for those who reject the revealed will of God now?


God bless.

 

It means that I need a Saviour who has fulfilled the Covenant of Law.
'For whatever things were written before [ie. the O.T.] were written for our learning, that we, through the patience [perseverance] and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope' (Romans 15:4). All Scripture has relevance to me; not in a crass, literal way, but there is nothing that I can safely ignore. You mention Genesis 6. I need an ark into which I may enter to hide from the waves of God's righteous anger; I need a city of refuge into which I can flee; I need a Lamb without spot or blemish to make atonement for my sin. All these O.T. references have meaning for me, but I'm sure you realise that.

I may have misunderstood your Post #89. Would you like to spell out for me where you disagree with my Post #87? Do you believe the 'illegitimate sons' are the lost? I think we may possibly be in agreement!
[Edit: on second thoughts, I'm pretty sure we don't agree]

 

'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Rom. 6:1-2). 'And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as He is pure' (1 John 3:3). If someone continues wilfully in sin, whatever it may be and God does not bring him to repentance, he is not a Christian, whatever his profession may be. If anyone says, "I want to be a Christian, but I won't stop doing that," whatever 'that' may be, he is deceiving himself. We all struggle, we all fall at times, but God brings His wandering sheep home.

I am always amazed at Christians treating sin so lightly. Read Isaiah 1:10-17 & Amos 5:21-24. They both say the same thing. The worship of God is vain, unacceptable and actually offensive to Him in the absence of a wholehearted commitment to righteousness.

In the context, the meaning is those who are tempted to leave Christ and return to Judaism, but the application is also to those who turn back from a wholehearted commitment to Christ back into the world.