Hebrews 6 Dilemma

[revmwc]

So how did this thread get so off track?

 

[Darrell C]

It means that I need a Saviour who has fulfilled the Covenant of Law.
'For whatever things were written before [ie. the O.T.] were written for our learning, that we, through the patience [perseverance] and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope' (Romans 15:4).

So when do we (our) learn from it?

When it was written? Or in the day it was given?

It still remains, if Hebrews is "speaking to everyone" without a significance given to the original audience, then you have to apply that to when Scripture was "speaking to everyone" under Law. So you create a pattern for Scripture which means you must perform the Law, because it was "speaking to everyone.

But you don't do that Martin, because you acknowledge that when the Law was give it was for an intended audience. You acknowledge that God has now revealed a fuller understanding to us, and we acknowledge the establishment of the New Covenant.

You keep addressing my posts under the false assumption that I am saying Hebrews has no relevance to us because we are not first century Hebrews. I do not teach that the Law has no relevance to us because we were not among the audience that first received it. But I don't make those who rejected the Law...believers.

Scripture doesn't do that...neither should we. The Law was written for our learning but that doesn't mean it applies to us as a Covenant, or that we become Israel because we acknowledge the Law was good.

All Scripture has relevance to me; not in a crass, literal way, but there is nothing that I can safely ignore.

So when you received the Gospel did someone have to convince you to progress from the Covenant of Law?

No, because you were not under Law as these first century Hebrew people were.

You were not cautioned about laying again the First Principles of Christ.

You had no prior relationship with God through the First Covenant.

So if you want to implement these warning into your life, feel free. The problem is that unless you were under Law before receiving the Gospel...

...these warnings have nothing to do with you.

The exhortation in ch.12, yes, but, you did not tread the Son of God underfoot, count His Sacrifice unholy, and do despite unto the Holy Ghost. What you did, when you received the knowledge of the truth, was to yield to the Comforter, rather than resist Him.

You did not have the potential for re-figuring Christ in animal sacrifice for sins. Or as the writer puts it...crucify to yourself the Son of God afresh. Every time sacrifice was offered under Law, it was a figure for the Cross. Those told of Christ's Sacrifice, who reject it, and maintain the Law...offer Him up again...to themselves.

You mention Genesis 6. I need an ark into which I may enter to hide from the waves of God's righteous anger; I need a city of refuge into which I can flee; I need a Lamb without spot or blemish to make atonement for my sin. All these O.T. references have meaning for me, but I'm sure you realise that.

You're ignoring the point again, Martin.

The point is that the command to build an Ark was given to Noah, it is not a general teaching "speaking to everyone."

And if we tried to spiritualize this text in symbolic meaning, we would see a works-based element which is teaching everyone to "build an Ark."

Now. let's step up the difference between the Old and the New, and how that is significant to these Hebrews of the first century: they were promised rest. They rejected God's Will. They did not enter rest.

Are you looking forward to a promise of rest? Is that rest a physical land your people can live in?

No, you are not looking forward to the same promise of rest given to Israel, and in fact you have already entered into the True Rest of Christ through faith.

Two entirely different things, for two entirely different audiences. Israel did not have the understanding we have, and we do not equate the physical rest God did give them with the revealed Mystery of the Gospel of Christ we have been given.

Just like we do not equate manna with the True Bread from Heaven.

Sure you can benefit from reading the account of the Exodus...but you were never a part of it, and it has a historical significance that can learn from. This imagery is used to illustrate conditions today, where we now understand the difference between the physical nature of God's provision for Israel, and teh eternal provision He bestows in this Age through Christ.

That is what the Writer is teaching these first century Jews.

I may have misunderstood your Post #89. Would you like to spell out for me where you disagree with my Post #87? Do you believe the 'illegitimate sons' are the lost? I think we may possibly be in agreement!
[Edit: on second thoughts, I'm pretty sure we don't agree]

Yes...the illegitimate sons are lost...they are not saved.

We have legitimate sons contrasted with illegitimate sons. And the chastisement here cannot be the judgment that awaits the illegitimate among a professing "people of God," because the illegitimate do not receive chastisement, which would mean that we have something in view entirely different than the eternal judgment the Writer does warn about throughout this Book.


What you have here is what is portrayed in Psalm 73. God's people are disciplined by God for their own good. 'Every branch that bears fruit He prunes that it may bear more fruit.' But the wicked very often are not disciplined by God. 'Their eyes bulge with abundance; they have more than their heart could wish. They scoff and speak wickedly concerning oppression........etc.' (Psalm 73:7-8). Why was there a famine in Israel in Ruth's day, but not in Moab? Because, whilst Israel is disciplined to bring him back to God, Moab's sin awaits him without remedy at the Last day.
'Surely You set them in slippery places; You cast them down to destruction.....' (v.18).

I disagree because we do not have the same thing. In your quote you mingle concepts to the point where confusion arises. The branches that are pruned are those who abide in Christ, yet the Old Testament quote you designate them as the wicked (which I agree with).

This to deny my own statement which is saying that in chapter 12 we have a clear statement that distinguishes those who belong to God and those who don't.

And you ignore this.

We don't need to get outside of the text to understand that legitimate sons are chastised, and as I said...illegitimate sons are not.

Now, we know that those who are not sons are judged, and the Writer speaks of this a number of times. So the point is...there's a difference between chastisement and eternal judgment.

It's either that or we have to make the chastisement here speak about eternal judgment.

Is that what you think it means?


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

So how did this thread get so off track?

It is actually dead on target. The underlying theme is the debate as to who is in view in the key passage, which applies to all the warnings in Hebrews.

The "dilemma," for some, can be cleared up if they recognize the audiences/s in view. There are three groups, believers, unbelievers, and those who are on the threshold, or better...riding the fence. They are caught between deep-seated and ingrained heritage in the Law, and faith in Christ.


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

It is actually dead on target. The underlying theme is the debate as to who is in view in the key passage, which applies to all the warnings in Hebrews.

The "dilemma," for some, can be cleared up if they recognize the audiences/s in view. There are three groups, believers, unbelievers, and those who are on the threshold, or better...riding the fence. They are caught between deep-seated and ingrained heritage in the Law, and faith in Christ.


God bless.

Yes but the passage that was mentioned "those who were once enlightened" refers to believers who cannot be saved again because they have been saved once and forever. They can fall into sin and confess and find forgiveness, but true repentance as the writer is speaking of occurs once. We turn from (repent) the domination of sin nature and turn to Christ and that can only be once therefore they cannot turn again to repentance (salvation) because it has already occurred.

 

[Darrell C]

'What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? (Rom. 6:1-2). 'And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself, just as He is pure' (1 John 3:3). If someone continues wilfully in sin, whatever it may be and God does not bring him to repentance, he is not a Christian, whatever his profession may be. If anyone says, "I want to be a Christian, but I won't stop doing that," whatever 'that' may be, he is deceiving himself. We all struggle, we all fall at times, but God brings His wandering sheep home.

Again, you have Christians sinning to be in view, despite the fact the Writer clarifies they are unbelieving.

And again, you present the false argument that I imply Christians can sin without consequence. You will not find in this thread, or any thread on this forum, or in any thread on any forum I have ever posted on justification for the false argument.

We aren't talking about sin in the life of a Christian, we are talking about who is in view in Hebrews, and so far you have missed it.

But you can clear it up by saying plainly that the illegitimate saons of Chapter 12 are Christians, and we can take it from there.

I am always amazed at Christians treating sin so lightly. Read Isaiah 1:10-17 & Amos 5:21-24. They both say the same thing. The worship of God is vain, unacceptable and actually offensive to Him in the absence of a wholehearted commitment to righteousness.

Who is treating sin lightly?

You are off point in this discussion.

Quote me making light of sin...from any post.

In the context, the meaning is those who are tempted to leave Christ and return to Judaism, but the application is also to those who turn back from a wholehearted commitment to Christ back into the world.

So just show me where they have a wholehearted commitment to Christ?

You can't make the unbelievers with no faith in Chs3-4, the ones ignorant of even the First Principles of the Oracles of God (who are in need of going on to completion in regards to the Doctrine of Christ) in chs5-6, or the ones who reject the New Covenant of Ch.10...believers.

Your application is in error.

The application for us is the same as it was for the Writer and audience of the first century...don't be unbelieving, do not draw back unto perdition, and do not look to another means for remission of sin.

But because you impose the false arguments that I do not see an application to the Church, and that I make light of sin, you are not able to focus on what is in the text/s.

How about addressing what I do say, Martin, and leave the false arguments out of it. I will be more than happy to discuss application...once we finish the discussion about what the text states. And if you remain true to what it actually states, you will have to admit that believers are not being warned of eternal judgment. That is what the Writer has in view, not chastisement.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Yes but the passage that was mentioned "those who were once enlightened" refers to believers who cannot be saved again because they have been saved once and forever.

If that is the case then salvation can be lost, plain and simple, because the writer makes it clear that their end is to be burned.


Hebrews 6:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Some great men of God have imposed a hypothetical tense to the statement above, but...it is not. They did not hypothetically crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh...they are guilty of doing just that.

It's very simple...they have rejected the Ministry of the Comforter. That is what is being described in vv.4-5.

They can fall into sin and confess and find forgiveness, but true repentance as the writer is speaking of occurs once.

Show me in the text where the writer designates "true repentance, then show me in Scripture the passages which deal with those who do not repent.

Two entirely different subjects.

Christians can repent, and should repent...every time they sin.

What happens when one does not? They stand in jeopardy of physical death.

But at no time does the Christian stand in judgment of once again having the penalty for sin from an eternal perspective returned to them. This would nullify quite a bit of what the New Testament teaches in regards to the Atoning Work of Christ.

Repentance does not equate to salvation. That is what is in view.

We turn from (repent) the domination of sin nature and turn to Christ and that can only be once therefore they cannot turn again to repentance (salvation) because it has already occurred.

I disagree, repentance is not a one-time process.

What the Writer is saying here is the same thing he says in ch.10...if one rejects the only thing that can save him...there remains no other means for salvation:

Hebrews 10:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


He then goes on to describe the willful sin, which many then erroneously impose on a Christian. It is contradictory.

You can't have a Christian rejecting the means of salvation. That is what is in view.


God bless.

 

[revmwc]

If that is the case then salvation can be lost, plain and simple, because the writer makes it clear that their end is to be burned.


Hebrews 6:4-8

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.


Some great men of God have imposed a hypothetical tense to the statement above, but...it is not. They did not hypothetically crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh...they are guilty of doing just that.

It's very simple...they have rejected the Ministry of the Comforter. That is what is being described in vv.4-5.





Show me in the text where the writer designates "true repentance, then show me in Scripture the passages which deal with those who do not repent.

Two entirely different subjects.

Christians can repent, and should repent...every time they sin.

What happens when one does not? They stand in jeopardy of physical death.

But at no time does the Christian stand in judgment of once again having the penalty for sin from an eternal perspective returned to them. This would nullify quite a bit of what the New Testament teaches in regards to the Atoning Work of Christ.

Repentance does not equate to salvation. That is what is in view.




I disagree, repentance is not a one-time process.

What the Writer is saying here is the same thing he says in ch.10...if one rejects the only thing that can save him...there remains no other means for salvation:

Hebrews 10:26

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,


He then goes on to describe the willful sin, which many then erroneously impose on a Christian. It is contradictory.

You can't have a Christian rejecting the means of salvation. That is what is in view.


God bless.

See my earlier post it does a better job of it

 

[Darrell C]

Yes but the passage that was mentioned "those who were once enlightened" refers to believers who cannot be saved again because they have been saved once and forever.

This is the primary problem for most who try to understand Hebrews: they have the false notion that only those who are regenerate are enlightened.

That is not the case.

Peter speaks of men who have been enlightened here:


2 Peter 2:19-21

King James Version (KJV)

19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.


When yanked out of it's context those weak in faith and knowledge of the Word of God can be convinced this is speaking about losing salvation.

But if we make these to be regenerate men, then we must also say the false prophets of the Old Testament were "saved" as well:




2 Peter 2:1

King James Version (KJV)

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.


Because most do not understand the significance of what Christ says here...



John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


...they do not understand what the writer is saying here...


Hebrews 6:4-6

King James Version (KJV)

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


...and here...




Hebrews 10:26-29

King James Version (KJV)

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?



The simple fact is that the Spirit of God ministers to the lost, and does so by enlightening men to the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. And just like the false teachers in 2 Peter 2, who have known the way of righteousness, but have turned from the commandment given them, even so many will turn from that knowledge.

These passages make it abundantly clear that in view is eternal judgment for those who reject Christ. The writer does not contradict himself, which is what the case would be if it were Christians sinning in view.

Here is the clearest statement of Eternal Security in the Bible, in my view:


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Once one understand what it means to be made complete in regards to remission of sins through the very Sacrifice the rejecters of Hebrews 10:26-29 deem unholy, then they are free to exercise true faith in the Shed Blood of Christ.

Until they understand that when God promised...


Hebrews 8:10-13

King James Version (KJV)

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


...is a reality in their own lives, they will not be fully trusting Christ. There will always be that nagging suspicion in the deepest reaches of their hearts. They will equate their "performance" with the Work of Christ.

Above we see the promise, and here...


Hebrews 10:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


...is the reality of salvation in Christ.

Now why is it thee remains no more offering for sin here in the context of the passage?

Answer that and you will understand Hebrews a little better.


God bless.

 

[percho]

It is actually dead on target. The underlying theme is the debate as to who is in view in the key passage, which applies to all the warnings in Hebrews.

The "dilemma," for some, can be cleared up if they recognize the audiences/s in view. There are three groups, believers, unbelievers, and those who are on the threshold, or better...riding the fence. They are caught between deep-seated and ingrained heritage in the Law, and faith in Christ.


God bless.

DC I am glad you made this post because I believe it shows we we see things different. I do not believe that the book of Hebrews has to do with peoples in groups as you stated but is a letter to the people of God who used to be spoken to through the prophets but is being spoken to by his Son the heir of all things. And what God is doing for the Hebrews and man 2:6. I do not believe is written for evangelical purpose but as a statement of what God is doing through the Son, made high priest.

Therefore the writer wants to speak of deeper things. A key verse concerning this would be 2:4; God has given the Holy Spirit to whom he will. I do not believe those who have been given the Spirit will fall away because if they did it would be as if Christ had died in vain. And that was a one and done deal. Can not be done again.

Therefore the writer wants to move on.

Am I right or wrong? BTW I have much enjoyed the discussion.

 

[Darrell C]

See my earlier post it does a better job of it

Have to go, so will just say, of course it does.

And just ask one question...better job of what?




God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I do not believe that the book of Hebrews has to do with peoples in groups as you stated

Have to go, so will just say that you are quite free to believe what you want to believe.

You can show how we do not see two different groups in the following two passages:


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


Hebrews 12

King James Version (KJV)

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


Look forward to seeing you show how only one group is in view in these passage, and that they are all Christians.

If you still want an address of your post after that, I will get to it when I return.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

So just show me where they have a wholehearted commitment to Christ?

I'm sorry. This is an error on my part. I do not believe that a true Christian will be allowed by God to fall away. If you look at my other comments on the same post (#100) you will see that this is my position. I should have written, 'Those who turn back from a supposed commitment to Christ.'

My apologies again.

Any other replies to your posts will have to wait until tomorrow (UK time). I have commitments this evening.

 

[percho]

Have to go, so will just say that you are quite free to believe what you want to believe.

You can show how we do not see two different groups in the following two passages:


Hebrews 4

King James Version (KJV)

1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.


Hebrews 12

King James Version (KJV)

5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.


Look forward to seeing you show how only one group is in view in these passage, and that they are all Christians.

If you still want an address of your post after that, I will get to it when I return.


God bless.

I understand what you are saying. However is the intent of the letter to make sons from bastards or to the sons about what God is doing. Therefore chapter 6.
Sons, lets not go over those things already having been covered but let us go on unto things of perfection?

 

[Darrell C]

I understand what you are saying. However is the intent of the letter to make sons from bastards or to the sons about what God is doing.

The Letter of Hebrews is addressed, in general, to Hebrew Christians. The writer, though, knows the conditions of the Hebrews assemblies, that there are those who are associating with Christ and Christianity yet have not separated themselves from their traditional religion, which is essentially denying faith in Christ. You can't profess to trust Christ in regards to remission of sins then go offer upper sacrifice, which was for the purpose of remission of sins. so just as any preacher worth his salt has a central focus on the Cross of Christ in his messages, and knows that there are those who still need Christ in his audience, the writer of Hebrews addresses issues in the congregations which are problematic.

Ever been sitting in a service and the preacher started talking about sin? Did you think, "What in the world is he talking about, we are already saved, why is he preaching the Cross?"

Probably not. I usually pray will reach out to the hearts every time an invitation is given, because I am sure there are those who are simply going through the motions and have not understood the Gospel and been saved.

In regards to illegitimate sons, this portion of ch12 speaks to those who have suffered persecution, which is why some were falling away, even as our Lord taught in the Parable of the Soils. His point might be considered a little humorous, "It hasn't killed you, has it?" The basic point is that God does not chastise those who are not His sons (children), which distinguishes believers from unbelievers, and creates two groups that cannot be denied, which is seen throughout the book. There are three groups in view total, believers (who he writes to), unbelievers (those he speaks as those with potential to fall away), and those trying to straddle the fence, so they can both associate with Christ yet maintain loyalty to the Law.

The focus on sacrifice for sin in Hebrews 9-10 is, in my opinion, one of the most important passages in the entire Word of God. Man's Redemption is a central theme to Scripture, and Hebrews 9-10 are central to our understanding of Redemption. The writer makes it clear that there is a distinction between that which was shadow/figure/type/parable and that which is the reality of those types. If we want to understand the Pentateuch, particularly those that deal with Levitical Service, we need to understand Hebrews.

I don't really see it as a matter of "making the illegitimate legitimate" in ch12, but a statement of fact, "You receive chastisement, not because God has forsaken or neglected you...He is the One doing it. Our earthly fathers chastised us for our good, how much better when God seeks that which is beneficial for you, though it seems grievous for the time. You have not suffered to the extent that you have died, so remember what Christ suffered, then perhaps you will not consider that which you suffer so grievous."

In ch11 he gives a list of the faithful of the Old Testament, and points out the sufferings they went through, and the fact that they were not made perfect, and they did not receive the promises, but...they were faithful unto death.

Only believers will benefit from this, but those who, due to persecution, straddled the fence, could, by this Word and the Holy Ghost, cross over from the Covenant of Law to true faith in Christ. That is his intention. He does not present the Book in a fashion of, "Hey, you want to continue in the Law, go ahead, doesn't matter to me. We don't need you taking up space anyway." Rather, because of his love for his people, warns, exhorts, corrects, rebukes...so they might do what he tells them throughout the book. Which is to progress from the Law unto Christ.

Therefore chapter 6.
Sons, lets not go over those things already having been covered but let us go on unto things of perfection?

I have given several posts which deal with perfection (see the links), yet no-one has bothered to address this issue. I use to try to get people to discuss it, but at this point I look at it as something people will broach when they're ready.

But as I have said many times on this and other forums, I don't think Hebrews is going to be fully understood until one acknowledges and understands the theme of perfection (completion) that threads it's way through the Epistle, and is the basic thrust of the entire Book.

Here is a list for you to start a study of the theme:


2:10-For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect (5048) through sufferings.


5048-teleioo: from 5046; to complete, i.e. (lit.) accomplish, or (fig.) consumate (in character). Translated: consecrate, finish, fulfill, (make)perfect.


5:9-And being made perfect (5048), he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


5:14-But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age (5046), who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


5046-teleios:complete (in various applications of labor, growth, mental and moral character, etc.); completeness. Translated: (of) full age, man, and perfect.


6:1-Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection (5047), not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


5047-teleiotes-(the state of) completeness (ment. or mor.). Translated perfection (ness).


7:11-If therefore perfection (5050) were by the Levitical Priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should arise after the order of Melchisadec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?


5050-teleiosis-; from 5048, (the act) completion, i.e. (of prophecy) verification, or (of expiation [to make amends for]); absolution [remission of sins].


7:19-For the law made nothing perfect (5048), but the bringing in of a better hope did, by the which we draw nigh unto God.


7:28-For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated (5048) for evermore.


9:9-Which was a figure for the time present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect (5048).


10:1-For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which were offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect (5048).


10:14-For by one offering he hath perfected (5048) forever them that are sanctified.


11:39-And all these, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise.
40-God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect (5048).


12:2-Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher (5051) of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.


5051-teleiotes-from 5048; a completer, i.e. consumater: -finisher.


God bless.

 

[TomLaPalm]

Perfection was explained in post # 31 as maturity of a believer.

Where is that green moderator badge you had previously?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

[Referring to Romans 15:4]So when do we (our) learn from [the O.T.]?
When it was written? Or in the day it was given?

In the day that we read it. Rom. 15:5 (and 1 Peter 1:10-12) tell us that the O.T. was written primarily for our benefit as Christians. Therefore everything in us will have some sort of reference point for us, and will speak of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:39).

It still remains, if Hebrews is "speaking to everyone" without a significance given to the original audience, then you have to apply that to when Scripture was "speaking to everyone" under Law. So you create a pattern for Scripture which means you must perform the Law, because it was "speaking to everyone.

Not at all. We interpret the O.T. in the fuller light of the N.T. But that does not mean that the O.T. in general, and the Law in particular was not written for our benefit. The Lord Jesus quotes from Deuteronomy more than from any other book.

But you don't do that Martin, because you acknowledge that when the Law was give it was for an intended audience. You acknowledge that God has now revealed a fuller understanding to us, and we acknowledge the establishment of the New Covenant.

Agreed, but see above.

You keep addressing my posts under the false assumption that I am saying Hebrews has no relevance to us because we are not first century Hebrews. I do not teach that the Law has no relevance to us because we were not among the audience that first received it. But I don't make those who rejected the Law...believers.

Scripture doesn't do that...neither should we. The Law was written for our learning but that doesn't mean it applies to us as a Covenant, or that we become Israel because we acknowledge the Law was good.

I agree. I may have misunderstood your earlier posts. We do not become Israel because we agree that the Law was good. We become the Israel of God because He has grafted us in (Romans 11:17ff; Ephesians 2:11-22). But that may be a subject for another thread.

So when you received the Gospel did someone have to convince you to progress from the Covenant of Law?

No, because you were not under Law as these first century Hebrew people were.

Well actually, yes. For years I considered myself a Christian because I had been 'christened' as a baby, had never actually killed anybody and lived in a 'Christian' Eek country, even though I never went to church and was leading a pretty deplorable life. Like the Jews, I needed to progress from a legal view of Christianity to one of grace.

You were not cautioned about laying again the First Principles of Christ.

You had no prior relationship with God through the First Covenant.

So if you want to implement these warning into your life, feel free. The problem is that unless you were under Law before receiving the Gospel...

...these warnings have nothing to do with you.

I disagree, partly for reasons given above, but also because huge numbers of Christians are resting in the 'first principles of Christ' and are not growing in the faith, and many have a very faulty understanding of what salvation by grave through faith really means, so yes, IMO these warnings are very relevant to Christians.

The exhortation in ch.12, yes, but, you did not tread the Son of God underfoot, count His Sacrifice unholy, and do despite unto the Holy Ghost. What you did, when you received the knowledge of the truth, was to yield to the Comforter, rather than resist Him.

Well, for years I did (see above), but the point is that unbelief is not the only sin. Those who continue in sin without repentance are treading the Son of God underfoot, despising 'the riches of His goodness, forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leads [them] to repentance, but in accordance with [their] hardness and ....impentitent heart, [they] are treasuring up for [themselves] wrath....' (Rom. 2:4-5). Our churches are full of unconverted 'believers' who imagine that their water baptism and presence in church makes them Christians, just as the Temple was full of Jews who thought that their race and circumcision made them real Jews (2:29).

The point is that the command to build an Ark was given to Noah, it is not a general teaching "speaking to everyone."

And if we tried to spiritualize this text in symbolic meaning, we would see a works-based element which is teaching everyone to "build an Ark."

No, no, no! The teaching on the ark is absolutely for us! We need to see that we need an ark and though we don't need to build it, we do need to enter into it. The ark is Jesus Christ.

I'm running out of steam now, so I'll finish here. What we have, I think is the hermeneutical difference between the Reformed and the Dispensational, and it's clear from all this that they run quite deep. Whether I'm the man to champion the Reformed position, and whether I have the time to do so if I am, is another question. Maybe one of the others will take up the cudgels.

God bless.

And God bless you too. We agree on the basics. 'Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners' (1 Tim. 1:15).

 

[Darrell C]

So when you received the Gospel did someone have to convince you to progress from the Covenant of Law?

No, because you were not under Law as these first century Hebrew people were.

Well actually, yes. For years I considered myself a Christian because I had been 'christened' as a baby, had never actually killed anybody and lived in a 'Christian' Eek country, even though I never went to church and was leading a pretty deplorable life. Like the Jews, I needed to progress from a legal view of Christianity to one of grace.

And you defeat your own argument, because you say you had to progress from the "legal view of Christianity."

The Hebrew people were not progressing from the legal view of Christianity, they were exhorted to progress from the First Principles of the Oracles of God," which were the Hebrew Scriptures, not the New Testament, where Christianity is taught. Secondly, we see the Writer clarify that in view are the First Principles of the Doctrine of Christ that they are to progress from, which are again that which the Hebrew Scriptures contained, not the teachings of Christianity you held an erroneous view of.

You are equating your experience as a 20th century (assumed, lol, seeing you are now a Pastor) embracer of Christianity with the Judaism exercised by the First Century Jew. They have nothing in common. You were never taught that you had to offer up sacrifice for sin, for example, and had to decide whether you were going to continue to do what you were brought up to believe as the only means for atonement and remission of sins.

That is a first principle of the Oracles of God, and by extension (from an enlightened New Testament understanding, the first principles of the Doctrine of Christ. The Hebrew Scriptures portrayed the Sacrifice of Christ without revealing it.

And when those among the Jews rejected that which was complete, which they are exhorted to go on unto, and continued in the Law (which contain the foundational doctrines listed)...they crucified to themselves the Son of God afresh. Not Christ, because Jesus Christ was not revealed in those first principles, the Son of God was.

So you are making a correlation between your experience and that of the First Century Hebrew, and there is no correlation.

And I will have to come back to the rest of your response, Martin, have to get myself to work.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

One more very quickly, and I will say without looking this does not look like a direct quote, as I do not abbreviate the Old Testament.

[Referring to Romans 15:4]So when do we (our) learn from [the O.T.]?
When it was written? Or in the day it was given?

In the day that we read it. Rom. 15:5 (and 1 Peter 1:10-12) tell us that the O.T. was written primarily for our benefit as Christians. Therefore everything in us will have some sort of reference point for us, and will speak of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:39).

Again, this is not an argument that you can ascribe to me. At no time have I implied that there is anything in Scripture not relevant to us in this Age.

What you are not including is the fact that we stand apart from the Ages that precede this one in that to us these things have been revealed...not to them. Paul makes it clear that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery and not revealed in those days:


Romans 16:25-26

King James Version (KJV)

25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


We see this in your proof text as well:


1 Peter 1:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


In view is the fact that their ministry was not to themselves, but to us, who experience the glory that should follow the Cross of Christ.

They preach that revelation by reason of the Comforter just as Christ taught He would (John 16:13-14). It is only after the Comforter comes that the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ begins.

Therefore everything in us will have some sort of reference point for us, and will speak of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 5:39).

And I agree with that. That doesn't change the point of the original issue in focus here, which is that while we can make an application of Hebrews to the modern Church, that doesn't mean we can equate or correlate everything to us.

You tried to correlate your early experience with Christianity to what the Writer warns them of, but it fails entirely. You have never been an adherent of the Law, you were never under the Law, and the First Century Hebrew was. Born and bred.

Hence we cannot correlate your experience. You cannot equate being legalistic in regards to Christianity to being under the Law as a reality. There is no possible way you can come under condemnation for returning to the sacrifices of the Law rather than placing trust in Christ's Sacrifice.

Can you tell me that at any time in your pre-salvation association with Christianity you seriously considered trying to offer up sacrifice for sin? Literally causing an animal to die in your place for your sin?

And this is the primary error I see in the Christianity of most: they do not distinguish the difference between being under Law and being in relationship with God through the New Covenant. This lessens the magnitude of the work of Christ, in my view, because the singular error is to equate salvation in all Ages. Truly the faithful of the Old Testament enjoyed Eternal Security like as we, but, they died still in need of having their sins atoned for and forgiven through Christ (Hebrews 9:12-15).

So just do me a favor, Martin, give some thought to your attempt to equate and correlate your early association with Christianity with the experience of the First Century Hebrew. That's all I ask.


God bless.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Brother, I think we're talking past each other here, so I'm going to back out of the discussion. It began when you replied to me:

That is absolutely correct. But the single element you are leaving out is...this is dealing with Israel.

This is why we call it the Epistle to the Hebrews.

All I have been saying is that it has application for all Christians of all ages, and I stand by that. Thanks for the discussion, and God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

Brother, I think we're talking past each other here, so I'm going to back out of the discussion. It began when you replied to me:

All I have been saying is that it has application for all Christians of all ages, and I stand by that. Thanks for the discussion, and God bless.

And I agree, it does have application to Christians of, not all Ages, but through the millennia since the New Covenant was established.

I will still address the rest of the previous response, and say I am a little disappointed not get a response in regards to equating your early association with Christianity (which we could make an application to some degree to the warnings in Hebrews)with that of the First Century Hebrew People.


God bless.