Featured Catholicism is not compatible with Christianity

So you dunk yourself in the river to do a baptism?

 

That "not the removal of dirt from the flesh (via the touch of sacramental waters), but an appeal to God for a good conscience"— is the VERY thing that CAN'T happen in standard RCC baptism of infants.

So you are wanting to talk about the "powers to baptize" or the "magic powers to mark the soul in baptism" -- even though your own quote of 1 Peter 3 flatly rejects the "magic" arts and directs us to the "appeal to God for a good conscience"??

Are we just "not supposed to notice" the text you quote??

 

I'M pointing out the presumption of the appeal being made independently by the receiver of baptism.

It would be more obvious you dunk yourself in the river to do a baptism.

Are you baptized Bob? did you dunk yourself? did someone else baptize you?




19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:


If they baptize themselves you never come through on this command right?


Maybe my scripture is false

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, have them appeal to God for a good conscience.


Is that the right way?

which of these is true scripture?
John 3
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.



Here's an easy question. Its the one Jesus asked:

Was the baptism of John from heaven, or from men? Answer Me.

 

Then you quoted this -

1 Peter 3
21Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22who is at the right hand of God, having gone into heaven, after angels and authorities and powers had been subjected to Him.


As you quoted --
not the removal of dirt from the flesh (via the touch of sacramental waters), but an appeal to God for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

And it is the "APPEAL to God for a good conscience" that an infant -- cannot do.

That "not the removal of dirt from the flesh (via the touch of sacramental waters), but an appeal to God for a good conscience"— is the VERY thing that CAN'T happen in standard RCC baptism of infants.

So you are wanting to talk about the "powers to baptize" or the "magic powers to mark the soul in baptism" -- even though your own quote of 1 Peter 3 flatly rejects the "magic" arts and directs us to the "appeal to God for a good conscience"??

Are we just "not supposed to notice" the text you quote??

An appeal that cannot be made by the infant - How do you get the RC doctrine on infant baptism to survive that Bible detail without tossing the Bible out the window??

Not sure how this "baptize yourself" subject is helping you -- 1 Peter 3 does not say "corresponding to that baptism now saves - not the magic touch of sacramental waters but rather the magic powers of the priest who sprinkles you with water" .

There is not one text in the NT that speaks of the "magic powers of the one baptizing" and BTW - John the baptizer was full-on Jewish believer -- in the Jewish religion ... before the cross.

 

First of all Baptism was created and done long before a bible ever existed. We baptized for the same reasons the disciples do.

We ARE the disciples of Jesus Christ you read in the bible.

We don't crack open a King James to make sure baptism is correct. The TRADITION which Jesus Christ practiced is our own.

Your perceived absurdity of the extra-ORDINARY use of water to remove sins and actually do anything.

You're not the first.

5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Jesus explained to Nicodemus that he must be baptized he too felt the absurdity to it.

So concerning the capabilities of baptism Jesus explains to Nicodemus:

12“If I told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?

Spirit that's obviously a heavenly thing. The earthly thing presented is the water baptism, If you don't believe it does anything how are you going to believe Jesus if he tells you heavenly things?

The importance of "dunking yourself in a river" Is you are making the assumption the appeal is solely made by one person being baptized. If that were the case there would be more cases of self-baptisms.

Children are called by Jesus Christ.

Luke 18

15And they were bringing even their babies to Him so that He would touch them, but when the disciples saw it, they began rebuking them. 16But Jesus called for them, saying, “Permit the children to come to Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 17“Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all.”

What does having the touch of CHRIST of GOD ALMIGHTY touching your baby do for your baby? NOTHING!?
Not just children even their babies are brought to Christ. Parents were carrying them.

A newborn makes an appeal directly to God asking us that we baptize them by being born to a catholic. Baby cries that's Catholic for baptize me.


A free GIFT is not a CONTRACT. Washing away's of sin is a healing no one in their right mind would deny.

It requires a Diabolical ACCUSATION on one;s part that the infant or child is not in league nor expected to be of GOD.

Look you just gave birth to a infant. I look at him right away we will gift him with baptism, Without question this one serves God. And it should be to your shame when you look at your child "cause you don't know".

There is a subtle evil involved in the form of an accusation against your child. Your already flipping a coin concerning his loyalty to God.

If we took a bucket of mud threw it on your infant. You wouldn't wash it off unless he is old enough to ask for it? Why deny baptism?



Rob,

It would be helpful if you told us what you believe about baptism. Show us the "light" if you will. Rather then try to sculpt us into it.

 

Rob maybe you can clarify few things.

I want to know you have a child or grown man mentally handicapped incapable of understanding, communication. Does he get baptized or not?

Is abortion a sin? probably not.....You wouldn't accept into a church a mentally disabled person why would you care about a human being in a fetus state?


SDA church Manual page 44:

While there is no stated age for baptism, it is recommended that very young children
who express a desire to be baptized should be encouraged and entered
into an instruction program that may lead to baptism.


So expressing desire is recommended not required?


You have a Mentally handicapped child, He does not get baptized. He is also not allowed entrance to the church and he is a servant of Satan not capable of forsakening it:

“Baptism is a most solemn renunciation of the world. Those who are
baptized in the threefold name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit,
at the very entrance of their Christian life declare publicly that they have for-
44
saken the service of Satan and have become members of the royal family,
children of the heavenly King. They have obeyed the command: ‘Come out
from among them, and be ye separate, . . . and touch not the unclean thing.’
And to them is fulfilled the promise: ‘I will receive you, and will be a Father
unto you, and ye shall be My sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.’
2 Corinthians 6:17, 18.”—6T 91.



Then you can show us biblical examples of when Jesus Christ, apostles and disciples making the 13 vows to qualify them for baptism.



Vow
1. Do you believe there is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a
unity of three coeternal Persons?
2. Do you accept the death of Jesus Christ on Calvary as the atoning sacrifice
for your sins and believe that by God’s grace through faith in His shed
blood you are saved from sin and its penalty?
3. Do you accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and personal Savior, believing
that God, in Christ, has forgiven your sins and given you a new heart,
and do you renounce the sinful ways of the world?
4. Do you accept by faith the righteousness of Christ, your Intercessor
in the heavenly sanctuary, and accept His promise of transforming grace and
power to live a loving, Christ-centered life in your home and before the
world?
5. Do you believe that the Bible is God’s inspired Word, the only rule
of faith and practice for the Christian? Do you covenant to spend time regularly
in prayer and Bible study?
6. Do you accept the Ten Commandments as a transcript of the character
of God and a revelation of His will? Is it your purpose by the power of
the indwelling Christ to keep this law, including the fourth commandment,
which requires the observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath
of the Lord and the memorial of Creation?
7. Do you look forward to the soon coming of Jesus and the blessed
hope, when “this mortal shall . . . put on immortality” [1 Cor. 15:54, KJV]?
As you prepare to meet the Lord, will you witness to His loving salvation by
using your talents in personal soul-winning endeavor to help others to be
ready for His glorious appearing?
46 CHURCH MANUAL
8. Do you accept the biblical teaching of spiritual gifts and believe that
the gift of prophecy is one of the identifying marks of the remnant church?
9. Do you believe in Church organization? Is it your purpose to worship
God and to support the Church through your tithes and offerings and
by your personal effort and influence?
10. Do you believe that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit; and
will you honor God by caring for it, avoiding the use of that which is harmful,
and abstaining from all unclean foods; from the use, manufacture, or sale
of alcoholic beverages; from the use, manufacture, or sale of tobacco in any
of its forms for human consumption; and from the misuse of or trafficking
in narcotics or other drugs?
11. Do you know and understand the fundamental Bible principles as
taught by the Seventh-day Adventist Church? Do you purpose, by the grace
of God, to fulfill His will by ordering your life in harmony with these principles?
12. Do you accept the New Testament teaching of baptism by immersion
and desire to be so baptized as a public expression of faith in Christ and
His forgiveness of your sins?
13. Do you accept and believe that the Seventh-day Adventist Church
is the remnant church of Bible prophecy and that people of every nation,
race, and language are invited and accepted into its fellowship? Do you desire
to be a member of this local congregation of the world Church?


page 44



You guys did not always believe in Trinity. We'd be wrong for believing it. What I see is you having to reinvent the wheel again, especially right here in baptism.


We already embracing them in the church even prior to baptism.



You know the spirit of accusation. This finger pointing of evil among children, mentally handicapped, and those conceived not born. The spirit of accusation that says everyone else is evil but us. Those of Sunday worship are the mark of the beast. These guys over here want to kill us and one day they will. They call the devil accuser for a reason.

I believe depending on an accusation for a foundation of faith is a flaw.

 

Those are all merely "stories" -- I prefer the Word of God.

Baptism is an outward sign - of an previous decision to follow Christ and when one is born again they follow the command of Christ and choose to be baptized.

 

Likely - not.

Certainly.

Not baptizing someone is not the same thing as tossing them out of church.

No the text is not talking about baptizing people apart from their request - it is talking about the decision to defer baptism EVEN if the child requests it -- and it is leaning toward not deferring - though most of us would NOT allow our child to be baptized EVEN if they request it - if it is a very very young age.

You are telling a story - not quoting the Bible.

"To him that knows to do right and does it not - to him it is sin" James 4:17.

In the scenario you provide - the person has not sinned by not being baptized - as you say they have no understanding of the entire concept.

 

Matt 28 "Make disciples of all nations -

19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

There has never been an SDA doctrine teaching that the Trinity is wrong. The church was officially organized as the Seventh-day Adventist church in the 1860's and the first published statement of doctrines was in the 1870's.

On the contrary - the ONLY baptism you see in actual scripture it is believer's baptism.

.[/QUOTE]

Not sure what you are talking about - I did not start this thread or give it - its title. Just joined on the subject of baptism.

 

Not sure what you are talking about - I did not start this thread or give it - its title. Just joined on the subject of baptism.[/QUOTE]



Colossians 2

11and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; 12having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.


This points out the New and greater Circumcision that occurs through baptism.

Now if you were a Jew as Jesus you would have been circumcised on the 8th day.

21And when eight days had passed, before His circumcision, His name was then called Jesus, the name given by the angel before He was conceived in the womb.

This is how a man entered a old covenant relationship with God.

Are you saying God in the inferior old covenant was more inclusive and more generous of who enters the faith than he is now?


For folks who blow whistle claim change on Sabbath to Sunday, where is the whistle of entering the faith CHANGED from infant to adulthood?



Acts 2
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”



The requirement for baptism is not being baptized.

We see whole households being baptized none had 13 vows.

Acts 16
15And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.


Baptism is a healing act that holds great forgiveness. Jesus was challenged for his ability to forgive that was nothing he told a man get up and pick up your mat.
All the miracles have tied in the forgiveness of sins.

I want you to notice the recipients of God's grace here. See what they have in common.

Luke 7
12Now when he came nigh to the gate of the city, behold, there was a dead man carried out, the only son of his mother, and she was a widow: and much people of the city was with her. 13And when the Lord saw her, he had compassion on her, and said unto her, Weep not. 14And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise. 15And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.


Luke 8
49While he yet spake, there cometh one from the ruler of the synagogue's house, saying to him, Thy daughter is dead; trouble not the Master. 50But when Jesus heard it, he answered him, saying, Fear not: believe only, and she shall be made whole. 51And when he came into the house, he suffered no man to go in, save Peter, and James, and John, and the father and the mother of the maiden. 52And all wept, and bewailed her: but he said, Weep not; she is not dead, but sleepeth. 53And they laughed him to scorn, knowing that she was dead. 54And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise. 55And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat. 56And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.

John 11
38Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the grave. It was a cave, and a stone lay upon it. 39Jesus said, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time he stinketh: for he hath been dead four days. 40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 41Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me. 42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me. 43And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.


Acts 20
7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. 8And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where they were gathered together. 9And there sat in a window a certain young man named Eutychus, being fallen into a deep sleep: and as Paul was long preaching, he sunk down with sleep, and fell down from the third loft, and was taken up dead. 10And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, Trouble not yourselves; for his life is in him. 11When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed. 12And they brought the young man alive, and were not a little comforted.


What is in common......They were all DEAD, incapable of requesting aid, but never mind baptism they were resurrected by the holy spirit.

 

Bob,

Did you see Jesus when you were baptized?

I'd like for you to imagine your at the feet of a river with Jesus Christ and you are helping him baptize a hundred people. And you do an excellent job of bringing folks from the shore to the water where Jesus is. As they are being baptized they are moved from the left group of unbaptized to the right. And when you are finished 99 baptized people with 13 vows. And lo there is one left. Its a man who can't move, blind, mute deaf, mentally disabled, a leper diseased in everyway.
99 sheep accounted for baptized on the right. And alone by himself one on the left.


And Jesus Christ looks at him for a moment and turns towards you his eyes look right at your eyes.


That pain and anguish in your heart, That tiny voice wishing it were so. Calculating a mercy that can never be. But if you could remember who he is, The complete roaring rejoice of heaven thunders in the heart, The Joy this is really going to happen, Man if you were so willing if it were up to you, how much more so Christ? I know you have a good heart.

You would drag that man to Jesus because you know he can do something about it. Do you think he is going to be baptized?

Maybe you see Jesus here in this baptism.

But did you see Jesus when you were baptized? I promise you he was there.

 

Please be serious - under the old covenant girls were not circumcised - only boys were.
Under the old covenant - gentiles were not circumcised - only gentiles were.

I think you are grasping at straws to try and get "extreme inference" to be your "text" for infant baptism in the Bible.

huh??? Is it your claim that infants "appeal to God for a clean conscience" -- in all cases those baptized must hear and accept the gospel - before being baptized.

There is NO infant baptism at all in the NT.

Here is a good text where we do NOT see infant baptism.

Acts 2
38Peter said to them, “Repent, and each of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39“For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself.”


Acts 2 mentions no infants that "CANNOT REPENT and who have no knowledge of sin" - yet some wish to "insert that" contradiction into the text by extreme inference - when in fact the text requires that "you and your children" repent - be baptized - for the forgiveness of your sins.

Impossible for infants to qualify for baptism under those conditions.

The requirement for baptism is not being baptized. The requirement is that one must hear, and repent in Acts 2.

We see whole households being baptized -- but only after hearing the Gospel -- and accepting. Opening their hearts to RESPOND to the things spoken by Paul.

Acts 16
14 A woman named Lydia, from the city of Thyatira, a seller of purple fabrics, a worshiper of God, was listening; and the Lord opened her heart to respond to the things spoken by Paul. 15 And when she and her household had been baptized, she urged us, saying, “If you have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house and stay.” And she prevailed upon us.


Only "extreme inference" inserted into the text argues the exact OPPOSITE of the form "and those who did NOT hear and DID NOT respond to the THINGS spoken by Paul were baptized".

Inserting the exact opposite INTO the text -- is eisegesis.

in Christ,

Bob

 

None of them say that the dead were baptized ... you are "reaching via extreme inference".

The "grace" that we receive while dead in sin is the GRACE of John 12:32 "I will DRAW ALL Mankind unto Me" - that occurs for the unsaved - dead in sin. What does not happen is "sudden baptism" of the unsaved, unrepentant, lost sinner. -- as I think even you would agree. No such doctrine in all of scripture.

 

Or one dead as you mention in your previous post. In neither case does Jesus choose to "Baptize first". There is healing -- and in their right mind - baptism in the Bible - never the scenario that you are inserting via "extreme inference".

I would expect the same thing we SEE in the Bible - Jesus healed them first -- and then comes the part where some of them choose accept Christ - while others do not. "were there not TEN lepers and where are the NINE".

in Christ,

Bob

 

In your dreams.

If you actually followed what the Lord Jesus PRACTISED, you wouldn't baptize anyone. 'Though Jesus Himself did not baptize' (John 4:2). If you followed what the Lord Jesus TAUGHT you would baptize only disciples(Matthew 28:19).

If our Lord was telling Nicodemus that he needed to be baptized, why would he be dumbfounded? He did it all the time. 'For the Pharisees and all the other Jews do not eat unless they wash (Greek nipto, a light wash) their hands in a special way, holding to the tradition of the elders. When they come from the market place, they do not eat unless they wash (Greek baptizo). So when the Pharisees and others had been in the market place where they had bumped into all sorts of Gentiles and sinners, they went straight off and had a good old dunk. That the Jews did this is confirmed by Jewish authorities like Moses Maimonides.
So Nicodemus would not have been worried about another ceremonial washing. As a Pharisee he spent half his life doing them. It would have been water off a ducks back to him, in more ways that one. No, he was dumbfounded because our Lord told him he had to be born again of 'water and the Spirit;' a two-fold internal cleansing (Psalm 51:6-7) and renewal by the Holy Spirit (Psalm 51:10-11; Ezekiel 36:26). that's why the Lord Jesus asked him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do you not understand these things?" (John 3:10). If Nic had really know the Jewish Scriptures, he would have picked up these O.T. references.