1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured About Hebrews' warning: Do not draw back to perdition

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Browner, Mar 25, 2016.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Browner

    Browner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    2
    If this were the ONLY passage about the possibility of losing salvation
    I would trash it immediately, if not forthwith, in the greatest of haste!
    Howsoever, since there are many dozens of other verses and passages
    which teach against OSAS, I feel it advisable to consider this passage,
    which is one of my personal favorites (because no one talks about it).
     
  2. Browner

    Browner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    2
    you
    How are you at following God's many warnings about lying?

    Have you ever read "The Gospel According to Jesus"?

    Almost every chapter is about how one can lose his/her salvation.
    Yes, dear friend, this is what the book is all about.
    So, thou had better do the opposite of: "Try it, you might like it."
     
  3. Browner

    Browner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    2
    God does not insist that a believer must continue in the faith.
    The believer is a free-will moral agent ... he/she is not a robot.
    Meanwhile, God the Holy Spirit will endeavor to His utmost
    to bring a rebellious believer back into the fold.
    But, 'tis questionable as to how long He will be involved in doing this.
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think that's the issue. You have not offered a passage so far that actually talks about a person who "believes to the saving of their soul" actually losing their salvation. The difference here, in my view, is not the doctrine of eternal security, but instead the expectation that the doctrine kowtow to your definition so that you can defeat it. Eternal security holds that those who are saved possess "belief to the saving of the soul." Do you deny that such faith exists?
     
  5. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    He is the Author of that salvation. He did not have to insist...He does it.
    I did not know that people were teaching that we were robots, or that we do not freely choose. You are right, that kind of thinking is wrong.
    What I read here is that "God will give it His best shot....who knows, He may even pull it off."
     
  6. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,223
    Likes Received:
    991
    LOL!!!! No, my friend, the question is have you read it? IF you have you've completely misunderstood it, which isn't a remarkable thing due to the fact you misunderstand the Scriptures as well.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. Browner

    Browner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    2
    Afraid of lying?
    Simple question: Have YOU read it?
    Simple answer: Yea, or Nay.
     
  8. Browner

    Browner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    2
    So, you believe that God over-rides people's free-will?
    Gee, I wonder why He gave it to us.
    Musta made a mistake.

    P.S. God is the Author of Salvation of His special elect ...
    who are not all of those many who believed John 3:16
    at one point of time.
     
  9. Internet Theologian

    Internet Theologian Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    2,223
    Likes Received:
    991
    Lying isn't something I practice, nor do I tolerate it especially when it comes from professing believers. Your false accusations on John MacArthur and his church are, in fact, outright lies.

    ...and understood it as well.

    ...see above
     
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Perhaps it would be better if you didn't assume my answer. Do I believe God overrides our free will? (Which is where your reply should have ended). No, God does not override man's free will.
     
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    What do we see with Ballam, he ended up being killed with Kings of Miodian because he continued to go against God's warning and we are told, 2 Peter 2:15 "Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;" Jude 1:11 "Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core."

    God even had a donkey talk to Balaam and showed the Angel of the Lord with sword in hand ready to slay him and yet Baalam ran greedily after filthy money.
     
  12. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Unless you are calling me Ballam....or a donkey....I don't see your point.

    Sent from my TARDIS
     
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    God could have prevented Balaam from doing what he did. In fact God said no and what did Balaam do? He continued to work with Balak and God allowed him to act on his volition.
     
  14. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If I somehow caused you to believe that my comments are to assert that men do not freely disobey God, then you have my apologies. That was not my intention. I do believe that all men make choices and decisions of their own volition. My statement that you quoted even affirmed that I do not believe God overrides man's will.

    Before I was saved I willingly made choices in opposition to God. God commanded yet I said "no," and that of my own volition. All of my decisions were centered on me, and on my will. When I was saved it was not against my will either. I willingly and gratefully believed. But were it not for God working within my will, drawing me, then I never would have turned to Him. I was willingly saved against my will (that is, against my former will).
     
  15. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    No I posted that as a backup to your position
     
  16. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Ok....then I'm the donkey Laugh

    I agree. We freely sin.
     
    #36 JonC, Apr 6, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2016
  17. Browner

    Browner Member

    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2015
    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    2
    IMO, we should focus on the role our free will plays in our salvation.
    Our covenant with God is quite different than
    the old covenant, which is obsolete now.
    (Not to say that free will wasn't/isn't important in both.)
     
  18. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2011
    Messages:
    4,139
    Likes Received:
    86
    Okay let's look at our free will, Hebrews 6 verse 4 we see "It is impossible for those who were once enlightened..."
    How were we enlightened? If it means we have been saved then let's look at a few verses to help in our eternal security.

    1. Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    2. Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    3. Romans 8:34-39
    34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
    35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
    36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
    37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    Romans 8:38 & 39 are the key passages,
    38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
    39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

    So that states nothing can separate us from the Love fo God.
    Now let's look at a man in gross sin according the Scripture who Paul condemned and what was to happen.

    1 Corinthians 5:1-5,
    1 It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
    2 And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
    3 For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
    4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
    5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

    Now this man is said to be in gross sin and what did Paul say would happen if he remained? He would be turned over to satan for destruction, notice not of his soul, but his flesh. In other words satan would be allowed to take this believer involved in gross and destroy his body and it says if that occurred and he died, then his "spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." He kept his salvation.

    Then we see too 1 Timothy 1:20 "Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme."

    Two believers guilty of Blaspheme turned over to satan in order to learn not to blaspheme.

    The believer in gross sin is subject to the sin unto death.

    Now as for Hebrews 6:
    "4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

    How come it is impossible to renew them to repentence, that to bring them to salvation. Well they have already been saved and since they remain saved even walking in sin they have no need of salvation, but they have every turning from sin and walking in the Spirit who is indwelling them. What did Paul say about this, well he gave every believer a command,

    Ephesian 5:18 "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;"

    How can we lose the filling by being drunk with sin, the point is wine controls us just as sin controls us, therefore we are to allow the Spirit to Control our lives and not sin.
    That is where 1 John 1:9 comes into effect, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." If maybe will confess and maybe we won't but we will allow one or the other to control. That is every believer must choose to live for Christ or allow the flesh to control their lives. If they remain in a sinful state as believers then God will turn them over to satan for destruction of the flesh but the spirit will be saved. Jesus said this about the eternal security of believers,
    John 10:27-29,
    27 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
    28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
    29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand"
    So who can remove a believer from the hand of Christ or the Father, Jesus not one person and that includes the believer. We are eternally saved when we truly receive Christ. Most believers will not live a life of sin, but we see Paul give three such examples.
    Now what of the man in 1 Corinthians 5, what happened to him?

    We see 2 Corinthians 7:8-13
    8 "For though I made you sorry with a letter, I do not repent, though I did repent: for I perceive that the same epistle hath made you sorry, though it were but for a season.
    9 Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing.
    10 For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death.
    11 For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.
    12 Wherefore, though I wrote unto you, I did it not for his cause that had done the wrong, nor for his cause that suffered wrong, but that our care for you in the sight of God might appear unto you.
    13 Therefore we were comforted in your comfort: yea, and exceedingly the more joyed we for the joy of Titus, because his spirit was refreshed by you all."

    They repented of their carnality and the man repented of his sin and was restored. He didn't lose his salvation as Paul said he wouldn't but when the church acted with discipline toward the sinning man and at the same time repented of the glorying over the situation. All were in a state of carnality for Paul said,
    1 Corinthians 3:1-3,
    1 "And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
    2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
    3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?"

    They were full of sin in the church and amoung themselves and were glorying and puffed up about the man commiting such gross sin. But when Paul condemned it they repented, but had that man not repented, he would have been turned over to satan, by God, for destruction of the flesh that the spirit might be saved. The hebrew passages it is impossible because a person who is saved remains saved, cannot be brought back to repentance that salvation because they remain saved.
     
  19. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2010
    Messages:
    21,242
    Likes Received:
    2,305
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    there is no free will....only self will
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  20. JonC

    JonC Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2001
    Messages:
    35,198
    Likes Received:
    3,791
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I think that we certainly make choices (we freely choose), but you are right that "free will" is a fiction. Scripture even teaches that natural men are slaves to sin. I guess, however, that be overlooked by some...if they're willing. Frown
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...