Featured Biblical Foreknowledge

Iconoclast · Apr 27, 2016

From the same teaching as the previous OP....this topic resurfaces on BB;

THE QUESTION OF FOREKNOWLEDGE443

What of foreknowledge? Divine election based on foreseen faith is election by foreknowledge [mere prescience]. What is the biblical teaching concerning the foreknowledge of God? The biblical usage must determine the exact significance of the term.

Divine foreknowledge is not mere prescience [to know beforehand] or omniscience [to know all things, including those things that are only contingent], but necessarily involves the reality of decree or predestination.

It is not merely contingent knowledge, but refers to whom or what God has rendered certain and therefore foreknows in a certain and intimate sense.

Note must be taken that it is not merely what God knows, but also whom he knows.

Foreknowledge then necessarily implies a personal or intimate relationship when used of persons.
Divine election, it is asserted by some, is based upon the foreknowledge of God (cf. Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2; Acts 2:23), that is, God foresaw what was going to happen and laid his plans accordingly. It may be answered that:

• foreknowledge is not synonymous with omniscience. It is concerned, not with contingency, but with certainty (Acts 15:18; Rom. 8:29–30), and thus implies a knowledge of what has been rendered certain.

• Acts 2:23 would make foreknowledge dependent upon God’s “determinate counsel” by the grammatical construction which combines both together as one thought with “foreknowledge” referring to and enforcing the previous term.444

443 For a thorough discussion of predestination and foreknowledge, see Appendix 1. 444“ ...th/| w`risme,nh| boulh/| kai. prognw,sei tou/ qeou/...” The construction is that of the combined use of the articular and anarthrous connected with a single definite article and the co– ordinate conjunction kai,, both substantives being of the same case and number. The second term, “foreknowledge,” thus refers to and further enforces the first, i.e., “determinate counsel”. 167

• foreknowledge is related to the Old Testament term “to know”445 and implies an intimate knowledge of and relation to its object (Cf. Gen. 4:1; Amos 3:2). The passages in the New Testament (Rom. 8:29; 11:2; 1 Pet. 1:2) all speak of persons who are foreknown, implying much more than mere prescience or omniscience—implying a relationship that is both certain and intimate.446 The only example of things being foreknown is clearly based on Divine determination (Acts 15:18).447
• To base God’s eternal purpose on mere foreknowledge [mere prescience or omniscience], i.e., that he saw what was going to occur and laid his plans accordingly, would make God relative to the impersonal, amoral force of fate, chance or luck; would rob him of his omnipotence and make him finite; would take Divine election from its proper biblical, causative context of Divine love; fragment the eternal redemptive purpose, and rob election of its comforting and encouraging character.448 The one who would base Divine election on foresight would in reality be the true fatalist or determinist.

Deacon · Apr 28, 2016

source?

Iconoclast · Apr 28, 2016

Deacon said: ↑

source?
Click to expand...

Calvinism /Arminianism. ....by W.R.Downing

revmwc · Apr 28, 2016

there is this:

http://pastorshearer.net/Bible Studies/Calvinism studies/faultyexegesis,r.html

Calvin, as might be expected, makes the word “foreknow” (“proegno”) in Romans 8:29 mean “adopt” - implying “pre-election.” In short, for Calvin foreknowledge and predestination are essentially synonymous. A few lexicologists (e.g., Arndt and Gingrich) have agreed with his translation, but just a few. The overwhelming majority refute it. Meyer, for example, points out that the early church fathers (e.g., Origin, Chrysostom, Augustine, Jerome) translated it to mean “prescience,” not “pre-election.” He then goes on to say - with an obvious touch of irritation - that the meaning of “foreknow” in Romans 8:29 “is not to be decided by dogmatic presuppositions, but simply by usage of the language, in accordance with which “proegno” never in the New Testament [not even in Romans 11:2 or 1 Peter 1:20 (parenthesis his)] means anything else than to know beforehand... That in classical language it ever means anything else cannot be at all proved.”

Vincent is equally as emphatic: “‘proegno’ does not mean ‘foreordain.’ It signifies ‘prescience,’ not ‘pre-election.’” He goes on to add in a footnote that, like Myer’s comment, is tinged with exasperation: “This is the simple common-sense meaning. The attempt to attach to it the sense of ‘pre-election,’ to make it include the divine decree, has grown out of dogmatic considerations in the interest of a rigid predestinarianism. The scope of this work does not admit a discussion of the infinitesimal hair splitting which has been applied to this passage, and which is as profitless as it is unsatisfactory.”

revmwc · Apr 28, 2016

a search for Proegno I came to this,

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2008/10/proegno.html

Proegno

BEOWULF2K8 SAID:

There are two "fore-" verbs in Romans 8:29. There is proegno which is a conjugation of proginosko meaning "to foresee" and there is prowrisen which is a conjugation of proorizo "to predetermine." You are confusing the two. Now, because they mean different things, the passage says "whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate" (KJV) and "whom He foreknew, He also predestined" (NASB) and "whom he foreknew he also predestined" (NRSV) and "those God foreknew he also predestined" (NIV) and "whom he foreknew he also predestined" (ESV).

i) The meaning of proegno isn’t determined by Greek usage, but Hebrew usage. Paul is using a Greek word with a Hebrew connotation.

One doesn’t have to be a Calvinist to see this. All the major commentators appreciate this nuance regardless of their theological commitments, viz. Fitzmyer (Jesuit), Wright (NPP), Cranfield (Barthian), or Witherington (Arminian), to name a few.

As even Ben Witherington admits, “OT references to God knowing someone or his people, that is, to his inclination toward or love for them, sometimes refer to a concept of election (Amos 3:2; Deut 9:24; Exod 33:12,17; Gen 18:19; Deut 34:10), and such passages lie in the background here,” Paul’s Letter to the Romans (Eerdmans 2004), 246-47.

So Witherington, although a doctrinaire Arminian, doesn’t challenge the Calvinist reading on semantic grounds.

It’s a pity when theological opponents can’t even keep up with their own literature.

This is also corroborated by standard lexical reference works. When I say that proegno in Rom 8:29 means “to choose beforehand,” that’s exactly the definition which is supplied by BDAG for Rom 8:29. Cf. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature (U of Chicago, 3rd ed., 2000), 866b.

ii) Even on a Calvinist reading, the two verbs are not synonymous. Both verbs carry a deterministic import, but proegno has a covenantal connotation while proorisen has a teleological connotation.

According to your MISINFORMATION, however, the passage ought to be translation "whom he predestined he also predestined" which is just plain asinine.

Not only are you ignorant of basic lexical semantics, you’re equally ignorant of basic syntax. How do these two clauses go together?

Paul uses proegno to establish the divine initiative in salvation. But that leaves open the question, for what did God elect those whom he called according to his purpose (8:28)?

Paul then uses proorisen as part of a purpose-clause to supply the goal of God’s initiative: to reproduce the image of Christ.

Therefore, the second clause advances the argument. This is the train of thought:

Before the foundation of the world, God chose those who are called according to his purpose.

And to what end were they so chosen?

They are predestined to reproduce the image of Christ.

And only those so chosen are predestined to reproduce the image of Christ.

Hence, God is responsible for both the origin and outcome of salvation.

Every translation cited above shows that there was both foreknowledge and predestination, and the predestination was based on the foreknowledge.

Popular translations are no substitute for Greek lexicons or learned commentaries.

revmwc · Apr 28, 2016

The issue is centuries old and as we can see there are plenty of items on the net that show both views. This is one of those issues that Christ will settle for believers when all get to heaven.

Rob_BW · Apr 28, 2016

So they are saying the foreknowledge gained through omniscience would mean we live in a deterministic world So therefore foreknowledge is gained through eternality.

Or did I miss the point?

Iconoclast · Apr 28, 2016

revmwc said: ↑

The issue is centuries old and as we can see there are plenty of items on the net that show both views. This is one of those issues that Christ will settle for believers when all get to heaven.
Click to expand...

Nonsense......The issue is settled now. You have been shown to be in error everytime you post something.
FOREKNOWLEDGE
Fifth, terms which denote foreknowledge, emphasizing a prior acquaintance with and relationship to those foreknown.1196
• id5y6 (Yada'), to know, especially in an intimate or personal sense (This term connotes the idea of caring for, to know intimately [in a sexual or other intimate sense] ).
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. (Amos 3:2)
• proble?pw, proei^don (Problepo, Proeidon), to foresee [something rendered certain], not used of contingent foresight.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (Acts 2:31)
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (Gal. 3:8)
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb. 11:40)
• proginw?skw, prognw?siv (Proginosko, Prognosis), to foreknow, foreknowledge [certain knowledge of a thing or person].
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. (1 Pet. 1:20)

1195 The word “elect” in the Gk. text occurs in v. 1, and is construed with “strangers,” not “foreknowledge.” Pevtro" ajpovstolo" jIhsou' Cristou' ejklektoi'" parepidhvmoi" diaspora'", Lit: “Peter, an apostle to the elect strangers scattered abroad...” 1196 Divine foreknowledge is not mere prescience [to simply know beforehand], but necessarily involves the reality of decree or predestination. It is not merely contingent knowledge, but refers to who and what God has rendered certain and therefore foreknows in a certain and intimate sense. Note must be taken that it is not merely what God knows, but also whom he knows. Foreknowledge then necessarily implies a personal or intimate relationship when used of persons. In this appendix, see the section under “Objections to Predestination”. 438

Iconoclast · Apr 28, 2016

revmwc said: ↑

there is this:

http://pastorshearer.net/Bible Studies/Calvinism studies/faultyexegesis,r.html

Calvin, as might be expected, makes the word “foreknow” (“proegno”) in Romans 8:29 mean “adopt” - implying “pre-election.” In short, for Calvin foreknowledge and predestination are essentially synonymous. A few lexicologists (e.g., Arndt and Gingrich) have agreed with his translation, but just a few. The overwhelming majority refute it. Meyer, for example, points out that the early church fathers (e.g., Origin, Chrysostom, Augustine, Jerome) translated it to mean “prescience,” not “pre-election.” He then goes on to say - with an obvious touch of irritation - that the meaning of “foreknow” in Romans 8:29 “is not to be decided by dogmatic presuppositions, but simply by usage of the language, in accordance with which “proegno” never in the New Testament [not even in Romans 11:2 or 1 Peter 1:20 (parenthesis his)] means anything else than to know beforehand... That in classical language it ever means anything else cannot be at all proved.”

Vincent is equally as emphatic: “‘proegno’ does not mean ‘foreordain.’ It signifies ‘prescience,’ not ‘pre-election.’” He goes on to add in a footnote that, like Myer’s comment, is tinged with exasperation: “This is the simple common-sense meaning. The attempt to attach to it the sense of ‘pre-election,’ to make it include the divine decree, has grown out of dogmatic considerations in the interest of a rigid predestinarianism. The scope of this work does not admit a discussion of the infinitesimal hair splitting which has been applied to this passage, and which is as profitless as it is unsatisfactory.”
Click to expand...

Here from pg438-439

1195 The word “elect” in the Gk. text occurs in v. 1, and is construed with “strangers,” not “foreknowledge.” Pevtro" ajpovstolo" jIhsou' Cristou' ejklektoi'" parepidhvmoi" diaspora'", Lit: “Peter, an apostle to the elect strangers scattered abroad...” 1196 Divine foreknowledge is not mere prescience [to simply know beforehand], but necessarily involves the reality of decree or predestination. It is not merely contingent knowledge, but refers to who and what God has rendered certain and therefore foreknows in a certain and intimate sense. Note must be taken that it is not merely what God knows, but also whom he knows. Foreknowledge then necessarily implies a personal or intimate relationship when used of persons. In this appendix, see the section under “Objections to Predestination”. 438
WILL–DESIRE–GOOD PLEASURE
Sixth, terms which denote desire or good–pleasure, emphasizing that God’s determination and desire are synonymous, i.e., that there is no distinction between the Divine determination and good–pleasure.
• Jp2j6 (Chapets), to incline, bend, be pleased with, delight in, will.
If one man sin against another, the judge shall judge him: but if a man sin against the LORD, who shall intreat for him? Notwithstanding they hearkened not unto the voice of their father, because the LORD would slay them. (1 Sam. 2:25)
But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased. (Psa. 115:3)
That saith of Cyrus, He is my shepherd, and shall perform all my pleasure: even saying to Jerusalem, Thou shalt be built; and to the temple, Thy foundation shall be laid. (Isa. 44:28)
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure. (Isa. 46:10)
• la5y6, lya1oh (Ya’al, Ho’iyl), to show willingness, please, determine, resolve.
For the LORD will not forsake his people for his great name's sake: because it hath pleased the LORD to make you his people. (1 Sam. 12:22)
• ab6x4 (Tseva’), An Aramaic word, please, will, desire.
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men....that they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field, and they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and they shall wet thee with the dew of heaven, and seven times shall pass over thee, till thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will. (Dan. 4:17, 25, [v. 32 a repeat of v. 25] )
And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Dan. 4:35)
And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling was with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and that he appointeth over it whomsoever he will. (Dan. 5:21)
• eu'doke?w, eu'doki?a (Eudokeo, Eudokia), to seem good to one, good pleasure, choose, determine, decide.
At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight. (Matt. 11:25–26)
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom. (Lk. 12:32)

439

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal his Son in me... (Gal. 1:15–16)
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will. (Eph. 1:5)
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. (Phil. 2:12–13)
• bou/lomai (Boulomai), will, counsel, purpose, to will deliberately, have a purpose, be minded.1197
Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain. (Acts 2:23)
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. (Acts 4:28)
For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. (Acts 20:27)
Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (Rom. 9:19)
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. (1 Cor. 12:11)
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will. (Eph. 1:11)
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us–ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. (2 Pet. 3:9)
• qe?lw (Thelo), to will, be resolved or determined, to purpose.
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself...in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: (Eph. 1:5, 9, 11)
A thorough study of the preceding terms and selected passages reveals that (1) God acts according to his eternal purpose, that (2) he is absolutely sovereign over his creation, that (3) he completely fulfills his desire and intention, i.e., that his eternal purpose is both immutable [unchangeable] and infallible [absolutely certain of fulfillment].

revmwc · Apr 28, 2016

Iconoclast said: ↑

Nonsense......The issue is settled now. You have been shown to be in error everytime you post something.
FOREKNOWLEDGE
Fifth, terms which denote foreknowledge, emphasizing a prior acquaintance with and relationship to those foreknown.1196
• id5y6 (Yada'), to know, especially in an intimate or personal sense (This term connotes the idea of caring for, to know intimately [in a sexual or other intimate sense] ).
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. (Amos 3:2)
• proble?pw, proei^don (Problepo, Proeidon), to foresee [something rendered certain], not used of contingent foresight.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (Acts 2:31)
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (Gal. 3:8)
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb. 11:40)
• proginw?skw, prognw?siv (Proginosko, Prognosis), to foreknow, foreknowledge [certain knowledge of a thing or person].
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. (1 Pet. 1:20)

1195 The word “elect” in the Gk. text occurs in v. 1, and is construed with “strangers,” not “foreknowledge.” Pevtro" ajpovstolo" jIhsou' Cristou' ejklektoi'" parepidhvmoi" diaspora'", Lit: “Peter, an apostle to the elect strangers scattered abroad...” 1196 Divine foreknowledge is not mere prescience [to simply know beforehand], but necessarily involves the reality of decree or predestination. It is not merely contingent knowledge, but refers to who and what God has rendered certain and therefore foreknows in a certain and intimate sense. Note must be taken that it is not merely what God knows, but also whom he knows. Foreknowledge then necessarily implies a personal or intimate relationship when used of persons. In this appendix, see the section under “Objections to Predestination”. 438
Click to expand...

Except those things which show Jerome, and other men of old see it as I teach and have shown on this thread with the websites. It is not a settled issue by any stretch

revmwc · Apr 28, 2016

Iconoclast said: ↑

Nonsense......The issue is settled now. You have been shown to be in error everytime you post something.
FOREKNOWLEDGE
Fifth, terms which denote foreknowledge, emphasizing a prior acquaintance with and relationship to those foreknown.1196
• id5y6 (Yada'), to know, especially in an intimate or personal sense (This term connotes the idea of caring for, to know intimately [in a sexual or other intimate sense] ).
You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities. (Amos 3:2)
• proble?pw, proei^don (Problepo, Proeidon), to foresee [something rendered certain], not used of contingent foresight.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. (Acts 2:31)
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. (Gal. 3:8)
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Heb. 11:40)
• proginw?skw, prognw?siv (Proginosko, Prognosis), to foreknow, foreknowledge [certain knowledge of a thing or person].
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you. (1 Pet. 1:20)

1195 The word “elect” in the Gk. text occurs in v. 1, and is construed with “strangers,” not “foreknowledge.” Pevtro" ajpovstolo" jIhsou' Cristou' ejklektoi'" parepidhvmoi" diaspora'", Lit: “Peter, an apostle to the elect strangers scattered abroad...” 1196 Divine foreknowledge is not mere prescience [to simply know beforehand], but necessarily involves the reality of decree or predestination. It is not merely contingent knowledge, but refers to who and what God has rendered certain and therefore foreknows in a certain and intimate sense. Note must be taken that it is not merely what God knows, but also whom he knows. Foreknowledge then necessarily implies a personal or intimate relationship when used of persons. In this appendix, see the section under “Objections to Predestination”. 438
Click to expand...

Per the article I posted we see "Meyer, for example, points out that the early church fathers (e.g., Origin, Chrysostom,Augustine, Jerome) translated it to mean“prescience,” not “pre-election.”"

Jeremy Seth · Apr 28, 2016

Iconoclast said: ↑

• To base God’s eternal purpose on mere foreknowledge [mere prescience or omniscience], i.e., that he saw what was going to occur and laid his plans accordingly, would make God relative to the impersonal, amoral force of fate, chance or luck; would rob him of his omnipotence and make him finite; would take Divine election from its proper biblical, causative context of Divine love; fragment the eternal redemptive purpose, and rob election of its comforting and encouraging character.448 The one who would base Divine election on foresight would in reality be the true fatalist or determinist.
Click to expand...

This is a common criticism I don't fully understand. Why would God aligning himself with what He sees will happen make him finite, relative to "fate", or unloving?
How is this contradictory to His will as found in scripture?
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

Iconoclast said: ↑

The one who would base Divine election on foresight would in reality be the true fatalist or determinist.
Click to expand...

Why does a belief election based on foreknowledge imply inevitability of all events?

Rob_BW said: ↑

So they are saying the foreknowledge gained through omniscience would mean we live in a deterministic world So therefore foreknowledge is gained through eternality.

Or did I miss the point?
Click to expand...

This is what I understood the passage to mean.

Iconoclast · Apr 28, 2016

Jeremy Seth said: ↑

This is a common criticism I don't fully understand. Why would God aligning himself with what He sees will happen make him finite, relative to "fate", or unloving?
How is this contradictory to His will as found in scripture?
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son

Why does a belief election based on foreknowledge imply inevitability of all events?

This is what I understood the passage to mean.
Click to expand...

God does not need to learn anything.
God does not need man to advise Him.
God knows what will happen because He purposed it to come to pass

Jeremy Seth · Apr 29, 2016

Iconoclast said: ↑

God does not need to learn anything.
God does not need man to advise Him.
Click to expand...

Where does the doctrine of election based foreknowledge imply he does?

Iconoclast · Apr 29, 2016

Jeremy Seth said: ↑

Where does the doctrine of election based foreknowledge imply he does?
Click to expand...

Hello jeremy,

Read post 1 carefully

Jeremy Seth · Apr 29, 2016

Iconoclast said: ↑

Hello jeremy,

Read post 1 carefully
Click to expand...

I'm still not seeing it. Will you help point it out?
Thank you for your patience.

Iconoclast · Apr 29, 2016

Jeremy Seth said: ↑

I'm still not seeing it. Will you help point it out?
Thank you for your patience.
Click to expand...

Jeremy.....yes take your time with it. I will help if I can.
When I get to my laptop I can offer more on it.
If you could list as many questions or objections as you can as that will help clarify what is lingering as unclear to you and I also benefit from considering in a fresh way our Lord's great work in redeeming His sheep.

Iconoclast · Apr 29, 2016

Jeremy Seth said: ↑

Where does the doctrine of election based foreknowledge imply he does?
Click to expand...

God viewed all mankind as dead in Adam. Rom3:23.....
He did not have to save anyone at all.
In love the Father gives the Son a multitude of guilty sinners to seek and to save.
There is nothing in any of us that commends itself to God.
He set His love on us while we were yet sinners.

Think of this......did God save you or did you save yourself?
Did God save you on purpose or by accident?
God saved you on purpose......that is election.

Rob_BW · Apr 29, 2016

Iconoclast said: ↑

God viewed all mankind as dead in Adam. Rom3:23.....
He did not have to save anyone at all.
In love the Father gives the Son a multitude of guilty sinners to seek and to save.
There is nothing in any of us that commends itself to God.
He set His love on us while we were yet sinners.

Think of this......did God save you or did you save yourself?
Did God save you on purpose or by accident?
God saved you on purpose......that is election.
Click to expand...

Icon, in your estimation, would words like arbitrary or random be reasonable in describing how God chose the elect?

That is one difficulty I have when thinking about election, and would appreciate your opinion.

Internet Theologian · Apr 29, 2016

He saved us according to His will to save us, not according to man's will or determination: James 1:18, Romans 9:16; John 1:13; Ephesians 1:11; 1 Corinthians 1:25ff; 1 Thessalonians 1:4.

The doctrine is thoroughly Scriptural, but people are scared of it and trust self more than God. Therefore they feel more secure in thinking they chose God then knowing the biblical doctrine that God chose them.

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