Please explain this.

[TCassidy]

Plenty of unregenerate people praying in the name of Jesus.

I can't help but think this may be due to a misunderstanding of what it means to pray "in the Name of Jesus."

It does not mean we must end every prayer with "in Jesus Name."

The phrase "in the name of" is a way of stating authority. For instance, those of us who are old enough remember the old Keystone Cops serials at the movies on Saturday. The inept cops would chase a criminal while yelling "Stop in the name of the Law!" Nobody assumed the cop was named John Law. It was a statement of authority. "By the authority of the law I demand you stop" would be a good paraphrase.

When we pray "in Jesus' Name" we are praying with His authority. Matthew 28:18 tells us "Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.""

Jesus told us, in John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

This is a statement of authority. Jesus tells us that, if we are in Him, and He is in us, we can ask using His authority, for our prayers to be answered.

For those not in Christ there is no such authority. We have fellowship (in prayer) with the Father because of our position in Christ.

1 John 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us. Yes, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

"In Christ" = pray with Jesus' authority to the Father with access due to our position in Him.

"Not in Christ" = no such authority to address the Father regardless of what words are tacked onto the end of the prayer.

 

[InTheLight]

Actually, no. He did not say "God cannot answer" he said God does not answer. God choosing to not answer a prayer not offered in faith is well within His Sovereignty.

Whether or not God answers someone else's prayer is humanly unknowable.

Furthermore, the verses offered up to prove the OP's assertion do not say that God doesn't answer an unregenerate's prayer.

Sent from my Motorola Droid Turbo.

 

[Rob_BW]

I can't help but think this may be due to a misunderstanding of what it means to pray "in the Name of Jesus."

It does not mean we must end every prayer with "in Jesus Name."

The phrase "in the name of" is a way of stating authority. For instance, those of us who are old enough remember the old Keystone Cops serials at the movies on Saturday. The inept cops would chase a criminal while yelling "Stop in the name of the Law!" Nobody assumed the cop was named John Law. It was a statement of authority. "By the authority of the law I demand you stop" would be a good paraphrase.

When we pray "in Jesus' Name" we are praying with His authority. Matthew 28:18 tells us "Jesus came to them and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth.""

Jesus told us, in John 14:13 "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

This is a statement of authority. Jesus tells us that, if we are in Him, and He is in us, we can ask using His authority, for our prayers to be answered.

For those not in Christ there is no such authority. We have fellowship (in prayer) with the Father because of our position in Christ.

1 John 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us. Yes, and our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son, Jesus Christ.

"In Christ" = pray with Jesus' authority to the Father with access due to our position in Him.

"Not in Christ" = no such authority to address the Father regardless of what words are tacked onto the end of the prayer.

Well, I figured that is what he meant, I was just waiting for him to say it.

Now help me out with those Nineven, or Ninevehns, or Ninevites, or whatever the demonym for someone from Nineveh is.

 

[InTheLight]

I use bible and get slandered by saying I limit God's sovereignity.

In prayer, are we commanded to pray in the name of Jesus? Yes or no will suffice.

If 'yes', then explain how the unregenerate(who hate Him, btw), can pray in the name of Jesus..you know...the God they hate.

Your questions are irrelevant as to whether or not God deigns to answer their prayers. And I don't play the "answer me this" game.

 

[TCassidy]

Now help me out with those Nineven, or Ninevehns, or Ninevites, or whatever the demonym for someone from Nineveh is.

What about them?

 

[JonC]

Well, if you don't understand regeneration leads to salvation, you get Brothers mwc's and DHK's and et al postings saying they have an ability that the dead in sin unregenerate can believe and then be born again. So yes, it's imperative to understand ordo salutis.



The natural man has no faith...what I mean is that the 'faith' the unregenerate has is innate but that faith is directed towards everything and everyone but God. It is like love. Ppl love their family, friends, pets, etc., but that is not the love needed to love God. I say that because all faiths are not the same neither is love. The faith and love necessary for salvation is born via the Spirit of God.

So no, man is NOT saved apart from faith in Christ(have zero clue why you think I stated that). But the natural man has not the faith necessary to be saved. In fact, the natural man does not want to be saved. That is why understanding regeneration leads to salvation(ordo salutis) is imperative.

I agree faith unto salvation is of God. I disagree that regenerate man has no faith until it is gifted of God as I disagree that the Bible makes the distinction you claim here. Instead I believe that salvation as a whole (to include regeneration) is the mercy of the Father on the grounds of the Cross and in Christ, through faith worked by the Spirit in the lives of those who believe (Ezk. 36; Eph. 2). Where we disagree is I view faith as a continual work of the Spirit rather than a "gift" in the form of a product of regeneration.

Please provide the passage that has God regenerating men and afterwards gifting them with faith.

 

[Rob_BW]

What about them?

Were they all regenerated between verses 4 and 5 in Jonah 3?

 

[TCassidy]

Where we disagree is I view faith as a continual work of the Spirit rather than a "gift" in the form of a product of regeneration.

Faith is not the product of regeneration. It is a co-result of God's Grace. Beware of the logical fallacy Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Please provide the passage that has God regenerating men and afterwards gifting them with faith.

There is none. And I don't think anyone in this thread is making such a claim. As regeneration and faith are both results of God's Grace their advent in the life of a person is simultaneous. (At least from a human perspective. Remember, the Ordo Salutis is logical not temporal.)

 

[TCassidy]

Were they all regenerated between verses 4 and 5?

Verses 4 and 5 of what chapter of which book?

 

[Rob_BW]

Verses 4 and 5 of what chapter of which book?

I was editing my post when I saw the red flag go up and thought 'Yep, someone just quoted my horribly unclear post.'

Sorry for being unclear. Jonah 3:4-5.

 

[JonC]

Faith is not the product of regeneration. It is a co-result of God's Grace. Beware of the logical fallacy Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

There is none. And I don't think anyone in this thread is making such a claim. As regeneration and faith are both results of God's Grace their advent in the life of a person is simultaneous. (At least from a human perspective. Remember, the Ordo Salutis is logical not temporal.)

The claim was that "regeneration leads to salvation". I disagree that salvation can be divided into such distinct microdoctrines. So there are at least two positions here regarding the "placement" of regeneration, probably more as I find "order" here to by necessity be dependent steps (calling it "logical" instead of "temporal" Does not change the fact that what is presented remains chronological....remember the example of calling the dogs tail a leg).

But however we decide to word it, I disagree that "regeneration leads to salvation" and am asking for a passage that supports that statement.

 

[JonC]

Well he is doing that as all cals do but he also is making arguments today that cannot be supported with scripture nor reason and he has no way out.

I agree that his position is but an extention of a Calvinistic doctrine, but I don't think all Calvinists hold that error.

 

[tyndale1946]

I was editing my post when I saw the red flag go up and thought 'Yep, someone just quoted my horribly unclear post.'

Sorry for being unclear. Jonah 3:4-5.

According to Hebrews 8 are the people spoken of in these verses of a regenerate or unregenerate nature?... Brother Glen

Hebrews 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

 

[TCassidy]

I was editing my post when I saw the red flag go up and thought 'Yep, someone just quoted my horribly unclear post.'

Sorry for being unclear. Jonah 3:4-5.

In that case, yes.

 

[TCassidy]

The claim was that "regeneration leads to salvation".

That is correct. Regeneration is a punctiliar event that leads to a life long salvation.

It can be said that birth leads to life, but birth is not all of life.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Once again a Calvinist limiting the sovereignty of God.

Not at all. 'If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear' (Psalm 66:18).

Not can not; will not.

 

[JonC]

That is correct. Regeneration is a punctiliar event that leads to a life long salvation.

It can be said that birth leads to life, but birth is not all of life.

Using that analogy (of physical birth), would you say that birth precedes life?

I agree that the work of God in the event of our salvation can be viewed (and often is) as "being saved" while leading to a life long salvation which in turn culminates in the final state of "saved".

What I object to is the claim that "logical orders" are not chronological in nature (they are). I do not mean this to be derogatory as I believe we, by necessity, can only tackle such an unfathomable subject as God's redemption of man by using such "logic". The problem is not using regeneration to illustrate the necessity of God's work of re-creation. The problem is when such "logical orders" become such dogmatic "truths" that one can state regeneration is necessary before a lost person can be saved.

To illustrate, another "logical order" is that spiritual life is dependent on faith in Christ (Jn. 11:26; 14:6; 5:40; 10:28; 1 Jn 5:11-12) and one without faith is "spiritually dead". Regeneration, then, follows faith as one cannot be made "spiritually alive" without faith in Christ (John 11:26).

My point is not that that illustration is correct, but that "logical orders" are not doctrine that can be applied throughout Scripture. They are used to speak of aspects of salvation, but taken too far they only result in a denial or downgrade of other aspects of salvation.

To clarify: It is false to say that regeneration leads to the event where a lost person is saved. But I completely agree that the moment God saves us is an event leading to a life long salvation.


Now, if SovereignGrace is referring to life long salvation, or even that final state of salvation, then I agree with him. If he is referring to regeneration being a step towards the lost being saved, then he is wrong. As he has not clarified, I'm sticking with the last explanation because it seems to me to fit the conversation (but I also remain open to his clarification).

 

[TCassidy]

What I object to is the claim that "logical orders" are not chronological in nature (they are).

How can there be chronology when there is no chronos? There is no time in eternity where salvation originated, exists, and finds it completion, in the mind of God.

Regeneration, then, follows faith as one cannot be made "spiritually alive" without faith in Christ (John 11:26).

And one cannot have faith when spiritually dead, and enemy and hater of Christ.

 

[TCassidy]

birth precedes life?

Oxymoron.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

That is correct. Regeneration is a punctiliar event that leads to a life long salvation.

It can be said that birth leads to life, but birth is not all of life.

I do not see regeneration as a 'punctiliar' event. In common with many of the Puritans I see it as something that happens over a period of time, in the same way as a birth might be said to start at conception and finish at delivery.

I see an ordo salutis that looks something like this:

Foreknowledge

Predestination

Effectual Calling___________________________________

Awakening

Conviction REGENERATION (NEW BIRTH)

Repentance & Faith_________________________________

Justification, Sealing, Adoption, Positional Sanctification

Progressive Sanctification

Glorification