Looks like you two drank from the same water cooler.
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Please explain this.
- Thread starter SovereignGrace
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I said the last one had one short paste, the rest was all hand typed. Forgot to do my own spell check while using the small keyboard on my phone.
Thanks. This post is cogent. Kudos.
I simply do not see a biblical method of justifying the view that regeneration leads to salvation. Ezekiel 36 describes salvation as the regenerating work of God (as D.A. Carson noted in his “What is the Gospel?” series, the gospel itself is transformation). If we are speaking of conversion, then regeneration is a part (not leading to). If we are speaking of sanctification, then regeneration is that ongoing process of transformation. If we are speaking of that final state of being saved, then regeneration is also a part as we are made into the image of Christ. We simply are not re-made in order to be saved, but we are saved as we are made anew. It is the thing itself from one glorious angle.Okay, I went back and read his post. (I may have missed it because I seldom read his posts in toto, but don't tell him I said that!
But in the context does he mean that regeneration precedes salvation?
Or that regeneration results in the life long experience of salvation?
Or that regeneration leads (eventually) to our final salvation, glorification in heaven?
The word "salvation" is a pretty fluid word. And trying to "make it walk on all fours" may be at the very base of this discussion.
Half the problem can usually be solved by agreeing on definitions of the words being used.
Nope…didn’t do it for me. Maybe if you put a bit more feeling into it. Laugh
I understand the progression. I disagree that regeneration is not a part of that progression but rather leads to it. Salvation (as a whole) is an event, a progression, and a final state. You don't get to leave "regeneration" behind until we are actually glorified (saved...regenerated). But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as from the Lord, the Spirit. Smile
And I appreciate the effort. If it helps turn that frown upside down.Biggrin...I do understand what you are saying. I just tend to think of regeneration as an aspect more synonymous with salvation itself than "leading to salvation" will allow. I believe that we are being transformed from "glory to glory". So maybe it's in part a matter of differing definitions (I believe regeneration is ongoing in the life of a believer).<sigh> I tried. I really did.
Let me explain my position, hopefully, more succinctly.I simply do not see a biblical method of justifying the view that regeneration leads to salvation. Ezekiel 36 describes salvation as the regenerating work of God (as D.A. Carson noted in his “What is the Gospel?” series, the gospel itself is transformation). If we are speaking of conversion, then regeneration is a part (not leading to). If we are speaking of sanctification, then regeneration is that ongoing process of transformation. If we are speaking of that final state of being saved, then regeneration is also a part as we are made into the image of Christ. We simply are not re-made in order to be saved, but we are saved as we are made anew. It is the thing itself from one glorious angle.
Regeneration is the new birth, the birth of the Spirit of God, the being born from above, &c. In regeneration, a new heart is given and the stony heart is taken away. This causes us to love Him now. In regeneration, as a result, faith and repentance are also a part of this which is called regeneration. At the moment one is regenerated, they then are saved as they now seek Him in the biblical way. Those who seek Him have a new heart. In regeneration, new eyes and ears are also given. I see regeneration leading to salvation as a 'Bam, Bam!'. Not light years apart.
This is probably much to easy to be helpful, but 'if anyone is in Christ he is a new creation. Old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new' (2 Corinthians 5:17). If someone has become a believer, regeneration has already happened. Yes, there is growth in grace; yes, there is continuing maturity, but at the point of becoming a Christian, regeneration has happened.
Yes, exactly. I wasn't arguing but fellowshiping around this many faceted gem of a doctrine. Biggrin
New Life progresses the moment of faith
These scriptures give us the perfect illustration by our Lord.
Mark 4:1-23. Matthew 13:1-23
When the seed that is the Gospel is sown it falls upon 4 types of ground.
1. Some fell by the wayside, and the birds ate it the seed. Falling on deaf ears we might say and the cares of life are greater than their care about eternity.
2. The stoney ground, that is the hardened heart. They hear the word and receive the witness, but didn't accept the word the seed never takes root. The word never took in their lives and the hardness wouldn't let them respond. Oh it sprang up up never really took a firm hold.
3. Then some fell among the thorns the thorns grew and choked it off. The pleasures of this word have too great of a hold upon these type of people. Wicked desires and covetousness, they seem to be saved for a while anyway. But the determining factor is their fruit, they have none.
4. Then Jesus some falls upon good ground. They receive and accept the seed. How do we know the seed took place, because they produce, some 30, some 60 and others 100 fold. That is some produce little fruit but they do produce fruit, others produces a medium amount of fruit and are satisfied with staus que, others have great zeal and are not satisfied with just a little fruit, or a little growth but they want to thrive.
Just type 4 people, accepted Christ, because the ground was good and ready for the seed. what prepared that Ground, the conviction of the Holy Spirit for one. Notice what Jesus stated in verse 20 of Mark, "...such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred." They heard and received, not that it was given to them to receive, they heard and responded.
Verse 23 of Matthew 13 states "But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty."
Those who receive the seed and believe then hear and understand must also bear fruit. Again they hear and receive it.
I agree that anyone in Christ is a new creation (2 Cor. 5:17). I also believe, however, that this transformation is at the same time a process and that we are transformed from glory to glory (2 Cor. 3:18) and we are not yet what we will be (1 Jn. 3:2).
I was saved about 40 years ago as a young man attending a small Baptist church outside of Atlanta Georgia. I am also now being saved as a work of God in my life. I also look forward to my salvation, when I will have been made into the image of my Savior and Lord.
My salvation as a mere child was God's grace through faith. I am still being saved by God's grace through faith. On that day, I will be saved by God's grace through faith.
I was regenerated, made a new creature, given new life when God saved me (2 Cor. 5:17). I am being transformed into the image of my Lord with ever increasing glory (2 Cor. 3:18). Yet it does not yet appear what I will be, but I will be made into the image of Christ (1 John 3:2).
We cannot make regeneration as a one time deal leading to salvation. Regeneration, being born again (or from above, if that is your preference), being re-created, is not something that has happened and then we are saved. It is us having been saved (conversion) and living a live of being saved (sanctification) as we look to our final salvation in Jesus Christ (glorification).
Regeneration was not a "one stop shop" leading towards something else. I was not "born again" and then saved. Instead I was saved through this new birth...this work of God as He transformed me from a lost sinner into His child. And this work continues in my life.
I understand your position, brother. I am not calling you some kind of "false teacher" for our "disagreement" here (please don't think I am saying that you are purposing unsound doctrine, that is not what I am saying). I actually believe that we hold very similar views here but are merely looking at it from different angles. I also see benefit to such things.
I am saying, however, that I do not agree with using the phrase "regeneration leads to salvation" (just as I do not agree with using "OSAS") because I think it has a hint of potential error. The reason is that our eyes, having been opened, will continue to be opened wider. We can say that this is growth and maturing in Christ, but Paul also says that this is a "transformation from glory to glory." It is more than growing up. We are in the process of being made, re-created.
But yes, there is a sense whereby one aspect of salvation leads to another. Faith leads to regeneration because it is by faith that we have been saved (we are not made new creatures apart from faith). Regeneration leads to faith because we believe with a new spirit (we do not believe without having been made anew). I do not oppose exploring individual aspects of salvation, but I do prefer to keep then bundled together and interdependent. And, of course, maybe it's just a preference of mine. Again, I am not saying that you are espousing a false doctrine but that I would not word it as you have because it has the potential of unintended meaning. Think of it this way - God's drawing us to Himself is not God drawing us to be saved, but God effectually saving us. We can't look at regeneration as a logical step towards something else simply because it is descriptive of salvation itself (it is present in conversion and sanctification and will be completed only when we are glorified).
What about? Life: From conception unto being brought forth to death.
New life: From conception, receiving the Spirit of Adoption unto being quickened to eternal life, the adoption, the redemption of the body.
Romans 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, (has received the Spirit of adoption) he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies (the adoption, the redemption of the body) by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.---What does quicken mean in that verse. Make alive? Alive in a manner that can not die?
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:51 Changed from what to what? From that which had been born of the flesh to that which is born of the spirit.
Is Rom 8:29 the end result of Rom 8:11, is when your mortal body is quickened the moment you will be conformed to the image of the Son thus making the Son the firstborn of many? Firstborn as in firstborn from the dead of Col 1:18 and Rev 1:5.
Why is it the σῶμα sōma that is the temple of the Holy Spirit. Just what needs to be changed to enter the kingdom of God? Or inherit the kingdom of God?
Sorry about the delay in answer this post Brother mwc...
And there you go again...Cornelius had to choose. Why do you place man on the throne of God as much as you do? Unless man does 'x, y, z', God won't do His part.
For the heavenly conversation Cornelius had I would have to say he was saved. God does not talk to ppl in this manner now, but when He did in a salvific way many centuries ago, they were already regenerated.
Those that He loves He chastens. He doesn't chastise goats, only sheep.
Let's talk about the unconverted praying for others. Does God hear their(unconverted folk) prayers? I say no.
Again, who are those who call out and believe? It was those who heard the word and believed. Now, the bible is replete with 'let him who has ears hear', so there is a caveat here. Not everyone who hears the gospel truly hears the gospel. Unless they are first regenerated, it 'wooshes' right by them.
Yet, one has to be careful to establish doctrine from the book of Acts. The CoC, the charismatics, the Pentecostals all derive their horrible doctrines based upon this book. This was written during what is commonly called 'The Apolostolic Age', where many things that happened during those days no longer occur today. No one raises the dead, no one hears audible words from Jesus, no one has their sight restored by the laying on of hands, &c.
And there you go again...Cornelius had to choose. Why do you place man on the throne of God as much as you do? Unless man does 'x, y, z', God won't do His part.
For the heavenly conversation Cornelius had I would have to say he was saved. God does not talk to ppl in this manner now, but when He did in a salvific way many centuries ago, they were already regenerated.
Yes.
God chastens them that He loves. This is supporting my claim and not yours. You are undermining yourself here and don't realize it.
Those that He loves He chastens. He doesn't chastise goats, only sheep. Ah, that carnal Christian heresy thingy again, eh? Look, we've been down this road before. A Christian's life is rife with repentance. If someone is not being progressively sanctified, then something is a miss. 1 John 3 says we can not go on sinning. I'll side with John.
But the OP is about the unconverted praying. You're moving the goalposts on me.
Let's talk about the unconverted praying for others. Does God hear their(unconverted folk) prayers? I say no.
New life is evidenced by faith. Now, that is why saying everybody has faith is incorrect. [2 Thessalonians 3:2] If everybody has/had faith, then no one is lost.
The seed is the word of God and the grounds represent men's hearts. Only one ground(heart) was able to produce fruit. Why? It was good ground(a good heart). Now, what does the bible say about men's hearts? The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?[Jeremiah 17:9] So now, you have yourself, Brother mwc, a conundrum. Man can not prepare his/her heart, man can not keep his/her heart pure, man can not guard his/her heart...I am referring to the lost here. Their hearts are so wicked, so depraved, in a state of hatred towards God, that unless He first remove that stony heart and give a new one, they will NEVER desire to serve Him.
Bzzzzzzz!! Wrong!! True conviction shows God has already began a work within them, within their heart. You have the effect before the cause, the cart before the horse.
Again, the bible is replete with 'let them who have ears hear'. Not everyone who hears the word believes. Not everyone who hears the gospel will receive Him.
And again, you go against scripture.....
As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[Romans 3:10-18]
I don't think this is precisely correct.
2 Corinthians 5:17. 'If anyone is in Christ, he is [or 'there is....'] a new creation. The text doesn't say that the new creation is formed when someone believes. There must be a work of God's grace before anyone can believe (Matthew 11:25-27; 1 Corinthians 2:14, and to see it in practice, Acts 16:14). These are all well-known texts, but please think about them and reference them in any response you may make.
These things are true. When one repents and trusts in Christ, a number of things happen at once: one is justified (declared righteous); one is adopted into God's family; one is positionally sanctified (set apart by God for good works). But one has already been made alive in Christ, otherwise one would simply not believe and repent. This new life will manifest itself in various ways, just as the life of a new baby manifests itself in the desire for food, the presence of its parent, in growth and in articulation. So it is in the New Birth: the new creature in Christ will seek to be fed in the word, will hunger and thirst for righteousness, will seek God, will become articulate in prayer. This is growth in grace and is the consequence of the new birth, not part of it.
I hope that is reasonably clear. I have to go out now so I'm cutting things short.
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