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Please explain this.

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SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

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Martin Marprelate said:
I don't think this is precisely correct.
2 Corinthians 5:17. 'If anyone is in Christ, he is [or 'there is....'] a new creation. The text doesn't say that the new creation is formed when someone believes. There must be a work of God's grace before anyone can believe (Matthew 11:25-27; 1 Corinthians 2:14, and to see it in practice, Acts 16:14). These are all well-known texts, but please think about them and reference them in any response you may make.
These things are true. When one repents and trusts in Christ, a number of things happen at once: one is justified (declared righteous); one is adopted into God's family; one is positionally sanctified (set apart by God for good works). But one has already been made alive in Christ, otherwise one would simply not believe and repent. This new life will manifest itself in various ways, just as the life of a new baby manifests itself in the desire for food, the presence of its parent, in growth and in articulation. So it is in the New Birth: the new creature in Christ will seek to be fed in the word, will hunger and thirst for righteousness, will seek God, will become articulate in prayer. This is growth in grace and is the consequence of the new birth, not part of it.

I hope that is reasonably clear. I have to go out now so I'm cutting things short.
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revmwc

Well-Known Member
SovereignGrace said:
New life is evidenced by faith. Now, that is why saying everybody has faith is incorrect. [2 Thessalonians 3:2] If everybody has/had faith, then no one is lost.


The seed is the word of God and the grounds represent men's hearts. Only one ground(heart) was able to produce fruit. Why? It was good ground(a good heart). Now, what does the bible say about men's hearts? The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?[Jeremiah 17:9] So now, you have yourself, Brother mwc, a conundrum. Man can not prepare his/her heart, man can not keep his/her heart pure, man can not guard his/her heart...I am referring to the lost here. Their hearts are so wicked, so depraved, in a state of hatred towards God, that unless He first remove that stony heart and give a new one, they will NEVER desire to serve Him.


Bzzzzzzz!! Wrong!! True conviction shows God has already began a work within them, within their heart. You have the effect before the cause, the cart before the horse.


Again, the bible is replete with 'let them who have ears hear'. Not everyone who hears the word believes. Not everyone who hears the gospel will receive Him.


And again, you go against scripture.....

As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one.” “Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit.” “The poison of vipers is on their lips.” “Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; ruin and misery mark their ways, and the way of peace they do not know.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”[Romans 3:10-18]
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Man has never been able to prepare their hearts for God and yet the seed as Christ said fell upon good ground, it found a place to penetrate and take root. Jesus never said the good ground was prepared ahead of time, neither did He say it didn't contain rocks and thorns and yet the seed took hold and fruit was produced.
Now who is sowing the word today?

Jesus was the sower of the story and He is in Heaven today, so who is the sower?

Is it us as believers?

Well we do sow the seed of the Gospel, but the Holy Spirit is really the sower in His convicting of the unbeliever. That conviction demands an answer and that takes a choice. Not everyone will believe that is self evident. Not everyone who hears will believe, because the ground is stony, or filled with thorns or satan comes and influences them and the seed is consumed, but that which falls upon good ground springs up and bears fruit. Salvation is the work of God in His Son Christ, God gave man the ability to make a choice, Adam chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and man has been in a fallen state since. Cain proved that, Abel and Seth proved one can chose to believe while Cain and others proved they can chose to reject. All based on God in His Sovereignty giving man the ability to make a choice. Just as Judas chose to betray Christ, just as the Pharisee's chose to reject him when the evidence was overwhelming them that He was the Christ, they chose to reject. Just one as one thief hanging on the cross wanted off of the cross the other wanted salvation of his soul, both made choice's that day, one is spending eternity with Christ the other in everlasting torment. All because of that choice that day.
 
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Martin Marprelate

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revmwc said:
Man has never been able to prepare their hearts for God and yet the seed as Christ said fell upon good ground, it found a place to penetrate and take root. Jesus never said the good ground was prepared ahead of time, neither did He say it didn't contain rocks and thorns and yet the seed took hold and fruit was produced.
Now who is sowing the word today?

Jesus was the sower of the story and He is in Heaven today, so who is the sower?

Is it us as believers?

Well we do sow the seed of the Gospel, but the Holy Spirit is really the sower in His convicting of the unbeliever.
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The Gospel is the seed, and every Gospel preacher is the sower. The word is to be preached promiscuously, everywhere, to everyone. In real life a sower would be fired if he chucked the seed on the path and among the weeds, but the Gospel seed goes out to all. The difference is not in the seed and not in the sower; the difference is in the ground. It is only when the Gospel is heard by those whose hearts are prepared that it will take root and produce a harvest.
 
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revmwc

Well-Known Member
Martin Marprelate said:
The Gospel is the seed, and every Gospel preacher is the sower. The word is to be preached promiscuously, everywhere, to everyone. In real life a sower would be fired if he chucked the seed on the path and among the weeds, but the Gospel seed goes out to all. The difference is not in the seed and not in the sower; the difference is in the ground. It is only when the Gospel is heard by those whose hearts are prepared that it will take root and produce a harvest.
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And how the heart is prepared is what is debted, is it regenerated in order to believe or is it that the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that opens it and convicts that heart to receive?
 
Internet Theologian

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
revmwc said:
I've always believed it to be the power of then Holy Spirit who convicts the person so that they believe and can be regenerated by that belief
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lolzzzz...now you've destroyed all prior hope. But I responded so you could clarify and accordingly you yet remain in error.
 
Internet Theologian

Internet Theologian

Well-Known Member
revmwc said:
Good verse the Holy Spirit opened her heart with His convicting power so that she believed and was regenerated
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There is nothing in that passage that refers to conviction. Could you show us all how you add into (eisegete) that verse 'conviction' even though it is not there?

Or, did she keep her heart pure, Matthew 5:8 so that she could accept Jesus, not hardening her heart like others?
 
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revmwc

Well-Known Member
Internet Theologian said:
There is nothing in that passage that refers to conviction. Could you show us all how you add into (eisegete) that verse 'conviction' even though it is not there?

Or, did she keep her heart pure, Matthew 5:8 so that she could accept Jesus, not hardening her heart like others?
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The Lord opened her heart, simple the that is the Holy Spirit since He is now the force of our time, opened how did He open her heart, by drawing her, that is through conviction.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

Well-Known Member
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revmwc said:
Man has never been able to prepare their hearts for God and yet the seed as Christ said fell upon good ground, it found a place to penetrate and take root. Jesus never said the good ground was prepared ahead of time, neither did He say it didn't contain rocks and thorns and yet the seed took hold and fruit was produced.
Now who is sowing the word today?

Jesus was the sower of the story and He is in Heaven today, so who is the sower?

Is it us as believers?

Well we do sow the seed of the Gospel, but the Holy Spirit is really the sower in His convicting of the unbeliever. That conviction demands an answer and that takes a choice. Not everyone will believe that is self evident. Not everyone who hears will believe, because the ground is stony, or filled with thorns or satan comes and influences them and the seed is consumed, but that which falls upon good ground springs up and bears fruit. Salvation is the work of God in His Son Christ, God gave man the ability to make a choice, Adam chose to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and man has been in a fallen state since. Cain proved that, Abel and Seth proved one can chose to believe while Cain and others proved they can chose to reject. All based on God in His Sovereignty giving man the ability to make a choice. Just as Judas chose to betray Christ, just as the Pharisee's chose to reject him when the evidence was overwhelming them that He was the Christ, they chose to reject. Just one as one thief hanging on the cross wanted off of the cross the other wanted salvation of his soul, both made choice's that day, one is spending eternity with Christ the other in everlasting torment. All because of that choice that day.
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Now, you and I both agree the seed(God's word to man...the bible) fell upon good ground and grew and produced fruit. Both agree that grounds(all four grounds) are men's hearts. Now, how does the unregenerate have a good heart(ground) for the seed to take root and produce good fruit? It can't. That is why the heart is prepared to receive the word via God's regenerative powers of His Spirit.

God uses the proclamation of the gospel to prepare the unregenerates' heart. God prepares the heart to receive the seed.

Therefore, get rid of all moral filth and the evil that is so prevalent and humbly accept the word planted in you, which can save you.[James 1:21]
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

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revmwc said:
I've always believed it to be the power of then Holy Spirit who convicts the person so that they believe and can be regenerated by that belief
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Again...you have an effect leads to cause...the cart leading the horse. Regeneration is what brings belief to fruition. Not belief bringing to fruition regeneration.
 
SovereignGrace

SovereignGrace

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revmwc said:
Good verse the Holy Spirit opened her heart with His convicting power so that she believed and was regenerated
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More effect leading to cause. If true conviction(Godly sorrow...see 2 Corinthians 7:10...)has been wrought, it is a sign the Spirit has already been at work within the sinner. Ppl don't show contrition to their mortal enemy.
 
R

revmwc

Well-Known Member
SovereignGrace said:
More effect leading to cause. If true conviction(Godly sorrow...see 2 Corinthians 7:10...)has been wrought, it is a sign the Spirit has already been at work within the sinner. Ppl don't show contrition to their mortal enemy.
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He is working through conviction but not regeneration. That is the sticking point in this, regeneration, what is regeneration in your definition?

Most say it is rebirth, being born again. Now if a person is reborn before faith then we have a scriptural problem.
John 3:
"15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

For regeneration rebirth to eternal life with God to occur it states in verse 15 whosoever believeth in Him has eternal life, that life came that is the rebirth comes by believing, other wise it would state, He who has bee born can believe. Scripture doesn't say that, the gift of salvation that is the new life the regenerated life comes as we see in Acts 11:17 "Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?" to those who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 4:
"20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification."

How did Abraham receive the new life that is rebirth and stand as righteous before God, he believed, he was fully persuaded and staggered not at God's promise and therefore because of that belief He had righteousness imputed to him. To be reborn (regenerated) and have eternal life we must have a right standing with God, does that right standing come before we believe or after? Does rebirth occur before or after faith? What does scripture state gives us eternal life that is the new birth which is regeneration? It appears the definition of regeneration may be the more telling issue, what is regeneration in your view?

John 6:
"53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed."
Do we eat His flesh and drink His blood before we have faith or after? Those who receive HIM through faith have life but until they receive Him that is eat His flesh and drink His blood they have no life they are not regenerated until they have done that!
 
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