Featured Purgatory

utilyan -

Good afternoon (if its an afternoon for you). I don't think you and I have written to each other before. So, greetings to you in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. May His grace and mercy be yours in truth.

First, let me say that my return this board is not in any way to try to win an argument. If you look at old posts from me this was my motivation in years past and today is my shame. I will always give a man or woman the benefit of the doubt that when they ask me a question, they are asking me a question. So, when you ask me what the Scripture says about washing and coming out of great tribulation I will take you to mean you are asking.

As you and I can both see, the Scriptures says that these people came out of great tribulation. It also says, that they have washed their robes in the blood of the Lamb. Now, I do not have my Greek handy so let me assume for the moment that the translators got this correct, and the past tense is the right one. Therefore, if words mean anything, I am to understand that there is a very large group here, from every walk of life, who come out of great tribulation, and who have washed their robes in the blood of Jesus.

Friend, I am not convinced that I have to show that there is no cleaning between now and heaven. The reason being is that I am not teaching a purgatory doctrine. All the doctrines I seek to hold and confess I seek to take from Scripture and Scripture alone. There is no authority equal or greater than this. And good men I am longing to see and hug soon paid dearly so I could have this Bible in my own language.

What the Lord expects of me and you is to look at His precious word and understand it and obey it. And I would encourage you that the only infallible interpreter of Scripture is Scripture itself. In other words, does our text give us some clues (if we so question) what this tribulation is? And if not in the immediate context, what of the whole prophecy? Or other of John's letters? Or other Scriptures?

Furthermore, with what were they cleansed? Well friend, very clearly with the blood of Jesus Christ and that in the past tense. And O how the Bible is filled with wonderful teaching on the blood of our Lord Jesus!

If you believe this doctrine of purgatory I must say I my heart goes out to you. I am truly grieved for you. Because that means that right now you truly do not know peace. You do not or have never known the peace and joy that comes from having your conscience cleansed knowing that you have been justified by Christ. Oh that we who have been would be like we were in the day when Jesus first washed us. How we rejoiced! How we laughed! How we danced!

Romans 4:6-8
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Friend, if this is not your true experience, I pray it will become so.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

There is no need to show such nonsense since it have never been shown there is.

 

Nope! The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament II Macc. 12:41–45 as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, as I have brought up in the past of the BB, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification. BTW, ideas, such as that purgatory is a particular "place" in the afterlife or that it takes time to accomplish, are speculations rather than doctrines.

Here are Early Church writing which give support for Purgatory:

The Acts of Paul and Thecla

"And after the exhibition, Tryphaena again received her [Thecla]. For her daughter Falconilla had died, and said to her in a dream: ‘Mother, you shall have this stranger Thecla in my place, in order that she may pray concerning me, and that I may be transferred to the place of the righteous’" (Acts of Paul and Thecla [A.D. 160]).

Abercius

"The citizen of a prominent city, I erected this while I lived, that I might have a resting place for my body. Abercius is my name, a disciple of the chaste Shepherd who feeds his sheep on the mountains and in the fields, who has great eyes surveying everywhere, who taught me the faithful writings of life. Standing by, I, Abercius, ordered this to be inscribed: Truly, I was in my seventy-second year. May everyone who is in accord with this and who understands it pray for Abercius" (Epitaph of Abercius [A.D. 190]).

The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity

"[T]hat very night, this was shown to me in a vision: I [Perpetua] saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age, who died miserably with disease. . . . For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other . . . and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayer would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then . . . I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me. Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me: I saw that the place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright; and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. . . . [And] he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment" (The Martyrdom of Perpetua and Felicity 2:3–4 [A.D. 202]).


"A woman, after the death of her husband . . . prays for his soul and asks that he may, while waiting, find rest; and that he may share in the first resurrection. And each year, on the anniversary of his death, she offers the sacrifice" (Monogamy 10:1–2 [A.D. 216]).

Cyprian of Carthage

"The strength of the truly believing remains unshaken; and with those who fear and love God with their whole heart, their integrity continues steady and strong. For to adulterers even a time of repentance is granted by us, and peace [i.e., reconciliation] is given. Yet virginity is not therefore deficient in the Church, nor does the glorious design of continence languish through the sins of others. The Church, crowned with so many virgins, flourishes; and chastity and modesty preserve the tenor of their glory. Nor is the vigor of continence broken down because repentance and pardon are facilitated to the adulterer. It is one thing to stand for pardon, another thing to attain to glory; it is one thing, when cast into prison, not to go out thence until one has paid the uttermost farthing; another thing at once to receive the wages of faith and courage. It is one thing, tortured by long suffering for sins, to be cleansed and long purged by fire; another to have purged all sins by suffering. It is one thing, in fine, to be in suspense till the sentence of God at the day of judgment; another to be at once crowned by the Lord" (Letters 51[55]:20 [A.D. 253]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

"Then we make mention also of those who have already fallen asleep: first, the patriarchs, prophets, apostles, and martyrs, that through their prayers and supplications God would receive our petition; next, we make mention also of the holy fathers and bishops who have already fallen asleep, and, to put it simply, of all among us who have already fallen asleep, for we believe that it will be of very great benefit to the souls of those for whom the petition is carried up, while this holy and most solemn sacrifice is laid out" (Catechetical Lectures 23:5:9 [A.D. 350]).

Gregory of Nyssa

"If a man distinguish in himself what is peculiarly human from that which is irrational, and if he be on the watch for a life of greater urbanity for himself, in this present life he will purify himself of any evil contracted, overcoming the irrational by reason. If he has inclined to the irrational pressure of the passions, using for the passions the cooperating hide of things irrational, he may afterward in a quite different manner be very much interested in what is better, when, after his departure out of the body, he gains knowledge of the difference between virtue and vice and finds that he is not able to partake of divinity until he has been purged of the filthy contagion in his soul by the purifying fire" (Sermon on the Dead [A.D. 382]).

 

Do you mean the Christian can sin again and not have to seek forgiveness (apart from this idea o pugation)?

Only in your opinion, only in your mis-interprtation of Scripture this does not bear out. The One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church came up with quite a different interpretation before the Baptist faith tradition ever existed. As for the Trinity, this concept was flushed out in the early centuries by the newly developing One Universal (Catholic ) Christian Church.

 

God is the highest authority not scripture.

My heart goes out to you and I'm truly grieved that your heart is grieved over my not getting and peace and quiet. Maybe you can pray and pull some strings to convince Jesus to fix that tiny man on the internets.

God appeared before me and I asked, "Lord, you got me in that-there book of life?" And he told me "no". So I smiled, And then he winked. And that has been our relationship. Apparently I'm damned after its all said and done.

I don't do what God says because he promises me 5 bucks if I do it, let alone salvation. I do it for free. Even for trouble.




Do you still sin? If you do then clearly there is purging to be done.


You know as long as they say when they enter heaven they've reached the discipline of never sinning again. They can deny all they want a purgatory has taken place.
Purgatory means cleaned.
DO YOU GET CLEANED before you enter heaven? If you say YES, Congrats you believe in purgatory.
Maybe if
we change the word to CLEANATORY.

 

Sorry but all our sins, according to scripture, have been dealt with on the cross.

As far as the "one Universal church" is concerned has the church ever been wrong? After all it was once held by the Catholic church that if you did not attend a Catholic church you would go to hell. Yet that is not what is taught today. So who in the Catholic church was wrong?

In fact Baptism was only by immersion until 1311 AD. So who in the Catholic church was wrong?

No pope was considered infallible until 1870 AD so who was wrong?

Let's not pretend the church always gets everything right and use that as supporting evidence for something not supported by scripture.

 

1. "making stuff up" is controversial.

2. The entire system of torture/torment in purgatory for which the only way out is to fill up your own measure of torture - or to have someone else pay it for you - via the kindness of the RCC -- indulgences/purgatory/ etc is... made up.

3. If "final purification" were so necessary and personal - there would be no such thing as indulgences. No one would "want" to get out early - as if getting into heaven "impure" was a "good thing".

 

The argument for purgatory is that while you are forgiven of sin - you are still a pretty disgusting person - sinful and flawed and that such a person would not be welcomed into heaven to pollute the sinless realm with all of their disgusting character defects and personal bent to evil.

Another "reason" sometimes given is the idea that just as failing to study for the exam results in an "F" on the paper in this temporal realm... well those that die before they take the test and get the "F" must get that "F" in purgatory - it is the temporal punishment due -- the sure consequence that one would have gotten in this life for doing evil.

I think this made sense to people in the dark ages.

Not sure why people are still going for it today.

 

In Mark 7:6-13 does Jesus teach that the scriptures, the Bible, the "Word of God" found in "Moses said" is opposed to God Himself???

OR does Jesus teach that those who oppose scripture - oppose God "In vain do they worship Me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men...your tradition".

 

The myth of purgatory begins with a few flawed ideas.

The first one being that "making stuff up" is ok if you are the RCC.

1. you have to pay your "temporal penalties" after you die -- so you cheat on your income tax -- you go to jail or get fined. Even if you die before they get a chance to catch you. You just get that punishment in some form in Purgatory -- instead of in Maryland.

2. there is a "spiritual bank" where all "excess suffering" of the saints goes into the account. Cases where they suffered more temporal punishment than they "owed". And the merits in the temporal sufferings of Christ are included in that bank -- and checks can be written against that account.

3. This treasure is then placed at the whim of the RCC and they can "pay off" the debt of your loved one in purgatory so that somehow "they don't need to be purified" because someone else got an "F" on their home work or suffered a traffic ticket they did not owe -- and this was applied to the account of your loved one... if you earned an indulgence for them.

Now what is interesting at that point is that you would have to do this forever - since you don't know just how much is "owed" by your loved one. The way out of that is the infamous "plenary" (unlimitted) indulgence. Earn that one for your loved one - and it is guaranteed to cover any debt no matter how much!

Legal/lawyer/caveat -- sadly the church claims God is not so inclined to be merciful as the RCC so even though the RCC "writes the check" for you - there is no guarantee God will endorse it!! So they actually urge you to earn MULTIPLE plenary indulgences for the SAME loved one - never being fully confident that any one indulgence will do the trick.

How... "instructive" for the baptist-would-be-Catholic to consider before tossing out sola-scriptura-testing and instead turning to Catholicism.

 

Utilyan -

You wrote, "God is the highest authority not scripture."

The rest of what you wrote was not understandable to me. I don't mean by saying this a disparaging comment about you, but rather that I can't reply to it because I am not certain what your trying to communicate. Your above comment tells me a few things.

First, it suggests to me that you try to place your concept of God somewhere outside of Scripture. This is a grave error as the human heart is deceitfully wicked and even a truly regenerate heart is still subject to frailty. We must submit ourselves to God.

Second, it present a contrast that doesn't really exist. That someone God is higher than His Word. Consider Psalm 138:2 "I will worship toward thy holy temple, and praise thy name for thy lovingkindness and for thy truth: for thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name."

God has magnified his word above all His name? Yes, He has. Friend, you cannot say that you honor God and worship God if you reject or discredit His Word.

Lastly, I see this is a mentality that might be what you tell yourself to allow yourself to ignore the Word of God. You will not give account to Popes or Councils on the day of judgment. You will give account to the Lord Jesus Christ who will judge you according to His Word. Jesus said, "He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day."

As those who will be judged by the Word of Jesus, how much more should we give heed to Him rather than others? We who follow the Lord Jesus reject purgatory because its not taught in Scripture either explicitly or implicitly. Further, it impugns the full and final expiation of sins by the blood of Jesus, which is very explicitly taught in Scripture.

I urge you Utilyan, do not trust in men. Place no hope Popes or Councils who so often have contradicted one another. Flee to Christ and Christ alone.

 

Which ignores the full effect of the cross as well as what it means to be redeemed.

 

Words does not equate to solely scripture. Words are said and are heard.

You know just because some folks are too dumb to understand the Apocrypha well if God wrote it , GOD WROTE IT.


Faith alone is faith alone. I don't have to read a lick of scripture, Righteousness doesn't come from scripture. All I have to do is trust Jesus.

Guys are talking a TALK they never walk themselves and they get upset when they see someone WALK IT.

John 5
39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.

YOU THINK that in them you have eternal life.

Go to Jesus is greater then going to scripture.



2 Corinthians 3
2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.
4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Not with ink. The adequacy of a Christians comes from GOD not from scripture.

Scripture alone any idiot will run off with the wrong idea. Do we not debate scripture? for hundreds of years!?

Alone scripture is USELESS. If it worked we would not be debating.


John 1
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

God is the highest authority. THE WORD does not equate scripture only. If you want to equate the BIBLE as God. Then say that then. Say BIBLE is GOD, GOD is BIBLE.
BIBLE WORSHIPPERS.

 

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

 

Perhaps your Bible has pretty pictures in it. My Bible is composed entirely of words.

You saying God wrote it doesn't make it so. Even Jerome, who put in in the Vulgate Bible didn't think He did.

Which Jesus are you going to trust in? The Moslem Jesus? The J.W. Jesus? Or your own cuddly Jesus? You can only find out about Jesus through the Scriptures. You can't be saved without trust in the Lord Jesus Christ. You can't trust Him if you don't know Him, and you can't know Him save through the Scriptures.

Laugh

There is no salvation in the Scriptures themselves. I have never seen any suggestion on this board that anyone thinks there is.
BUT
"It is these [Scriptures] that testify about Me."

Amen! You can find out about Him in the Scriptures.

 

You cannot ignore God's Word written and cannot claim "not to have heard it".

So it is the "no-excuses" form of the Word of God.

And whatever you hear is to be "compared" to it -- Gal 1:6-9 "Though WE (apostles) or an ANGEL from heaven should bring to a gospel other than that which you have received let him be accursed"

The Jewish Apocrypha is rejected even by the JEWS and your own Jerome - as canon. How much more by Christians.

And your and my NT are the same. What is more your and my OT books of 39 are the same.

The fact that you want to read the Jewish apocrypha - rejected even by the Jews - is fine - but it is not the Bible. God did not write it and even the Jews know this to be true.

Even the Apocrypha says that NO message from God was given at that time.

It just does not get "any easier" than that!!

The answer to every topic, to every question cannot be "Well I read the jewish apocrypha - rejected even by the jews and even by my own Vulgate translator - Jerome, and that is why I am in error"

in Christ,

Bob

 

Flat out if the bible is GOD why doesn't someone step up and SAY THAT THEN.

If you all are consistent..(hah)........ There is no gospel according to Mathew.

Being dictated by God rather the inspired. It would also be called the gospel according to the PROPHET MATTHEW. Or rather Gospel ACCORDING TO GOD jotted down by his prophet matthew.

I don't care who rejected the Apocrypha.......GOD WROTE IT. Your making a case for an authority outside the book to make the call.



John 10

22At that time the Feast of the Dedication took place at Jerusalem;

What is this feast the apostles know of going on here?

Where is their scriptural backing for this "feast of the dedication"



In other words the Jews of this time did not open up king james version bible to the gospel of JOHN well I guess we should do this feast of the dedication..

Where is this Feast in scripture and how is it done?



No one in the bible had a copy of what we know as the bible.

No one in the bible ............went to the bible to fix their problem.Biggrin

 

First error, then bluster. We should be getting to insult in a moment

There we are! All three stages of incompetence.

What's your authority? The Pope? The Council of Trent? The voices inside your head?

What's your authority for saying that the apostles knew about the Feast of Dedication? That's right; the Bible. The only place we know anything about what went on with the apostles at this time is in the Bible.

So blessed be God for giving us the Bible so we don't have to flounder about like your first 'Pope' did (Galatians 2:11).

REASONS FOR REJECTING THE APOCRYPHA AS SCRIPTURE

1. The Lord Jesus Christ and the writers of the N.T. quote from the O.T. dozens of times: never once from the Apocrypha.
2. Josephus and the Talmud are very clear that the Apocrypha is not part of the inspired Jewish Scriptures.
3. The community who copied out the Dead Sea Scrolls never referred to Apocryphal books with the words "It is written" or "God says" as they did with the O.T.
4. Philo, the Jewish philosopher who lived in Alexandria around 40 AD quotes from almost every O.T. book; never from the Apocrypha.
5. None of the books of the Apocrypha ever claim inspiration or divine origin. Phrases like "Hear the word of the Lord" which occur so often in the O.T. are never found in the Apocrypha. Moreover, three times in 1 Maccabees, the writer stresses that there was no prophet in the land at the time he wrote (1 Macc. 4:46; 9:27; 14:41).
6. Some Apocryphal books contain basic errors of fact. eg. Judith 1:1 says that Nebuchadrasser [sic] was king of Nineveh rather than Babylon.

[Filched and adapted from the book Nothing but the Truth by Brian Edwards]