Featured conditional immortality

Tanksley...you are equating man's natural condition with believers here, lol.

There is no relationship between God and the natural man. Man is born dead, and until he is placed in Christ he has no life in him. This is why the dead can bury their dead.

And God does kill as a punishment for sin. This is true for both believers and unbelievers alike...in any Age. It is simply a Basic Bible Principle.

And I also agree God "changes their state from that which they were born into, because when He resurrects the dead they will be changed into bodies suitable for eternal punishment.

Sorry, but you will have to rip Revelation 20 out of your Bible to deny that men go into everlasting punishment when they die outside of Christ. They go into Hades prior to the Great White Throne, are resurrected and cast into the Lake of Fire. The only exception to this in the case of men are the Antichrist and the False Prophet, who go into Hell prior to the Millennial Kingdom.

As far as me imposing life in unbelievers...you have come full circle to precisely the opposite I have been saying all along: unbelievers never have life. The above is irrelevant to my view.

The reason is that you will not grasp the fact that having physical life is not equated to having eternal life in the Word of God. The dead will have physical life when they are resurrected and cast into Hell, as do believers, but, only believers have eternal life which has as a source our union with God. Unbelievers have not this life because they are...

...separated from God.

And ultimate separation is in the Lake of Fire. But their fate is final when they die the physical death outside of Christ. Man has only while he is physically alive to come into obedience to God.


Continued...

 

Er, ahem, don't you think that at some point we should take the Bible literally?



Sorry, couldn't resist...

It is not metaphor from John, it is the Gospel according to Jesus Christ, my friend:



John 6:47-53

King James Version (KJV)


47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.


This is the Gospel of Christ coming directly from Christ.

No man has eternal life outside of Christ.

And this is why we have to distinguish between concepts which have been given modern meaning and sought to be placed into a framework of Biblical Doctrine. Just because the spirits of men have no end does not mean we use terms like immortal or eternal when speaking about them. he spirits of the unjust will never cease to exist, but, they are neither immortal or eternal. The only way men gain eternal life is through Christ Himself, which is effected, not because God pours a substance into us, but because God is in us, and we in Him. This is the reconciliation effected by Christ's work, which remedies man's condition of having no life because he is separated from the source of life.

Again...physical life is just that, physical life. And until we distinguish between the meanings of life in Scripture we are sure to fall into the errors of cults and embrace false doctrines such as Soul Sleep and Annihilation.

Okay, so to prove you actually believe what you say here, all you have to do is say plainly that you believe...

...the lost have the life of Christ.

That they are not separated from God, but are in relationship with Him.

I'll be waiting quite a while, I think, for that affirmation.

And the context is completely different.

In that the concept is illustrated with a physical image:


Romans 7

King James Version (KJV)

1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.

3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.


And there is no redefinition...it is a Biblical teaching based on Biblical truths.

Not sure where you come up with "redefining."

What we are looking at are Christ and the Apostles specifically defining the meaning of eternal life, and how that compares to physical life.

You can see it as metaphor, but, if you take that to the point where you miss the teaching then you have not done your job as a Bible Student.

Again, the context differs because here we are speaking about believers and their relationship to sin after salvation. Whereas the thrust of this discussion has centered on the distinction between physical life and eternal life. If we follow your reasoning we might conclude that we are still dead, and that is not the case.

And the primary problem, at least one of them is ascribing life to those Christ clarifies, and defines Himself...

...as dead. Not having life. Physical life, yes, but they do not have the life which He came to bring.


Well, I hope something in there will help get across the central focus of what I have been trying to say.

Again, I would just inquire what type of Baptist you are, because I know of no Baptist group that embraces or teaches annihilation. So just curious.


God bless.

 

Our disagreement, so far as I can tell, narrows down to this one focal claim: you think that John is positively teaching a doctrine that "they are still dead when they are physically resurrected." Your only evidence for that claim is the fact that John called them "the dead".

My response is that John explicitly included the Christian martyrs in the exact same group of "the dead" -- and that Paul also used the phrase "the dead" to refer to Christians. All it means is "those who have in fact died". You're reading all the metaphysical stuff about "being dead while you stand on your feet" into those two words. This is not actually evidence for or against your claim; it's merely your interpretation of the phrase "the dead" in a way that's not even compatible with this passage.

I may be wrong and I don't want to just beg the question -- but it's not accurate for you to claim I'm "imposing on your view" when I'm actually disagreeing with an essential underlying support for your claim. If you can support your claim that the wicked are given a "glorified" body, please do.

My claim is that the wicked are never given a glorified body. Glorification is to have splendor and honor, which in 1 Cor 15 is the opposite of "dishonor". The wicked are raised only to "shame and eternal abhorrence", not to _glory_.

In an attempt to argue against the "glorified body" claim, I've cited the Bible's consistent contrast between the glory, honor, and immortality gifted by God to believers by means of eternal life (see Romans 2:7) against the wicked's reception of tribulation, distress, wrath, and finally perishing (Romans 2:8ff).

Why would you assume there's no substance in the scenario? All that's happened is the earth and heaven fled; there's no reason whatsoever to suppose that it's become impossible for a physical body to survive. In the vision, heaven and earth flee away, but then the oceans give up their dead.

Can a sea which is physical remain while the earth is fled, or can it give up dead? Can death and hades be cast into the lake of fire? These are questions that, like yours, don't tell us anything about the text, but rather tell us that we're asking the wrong questions.

But furthermore, you're asking a question that doesn't distinguish between our two positions. Even if I supposed your question was correct, so what? The answer isn't "they have glorified bodies", but rather "God intends them to stand judgment and won't let them escape it." That answer doesn't beg any questions about what happens after judgment, doesn't depend on questionable assumptions about all matter being destroyed or the environment of the judgment being unsurvivable (why would you think it's unsurvivable?).

 

Actually the focal point is distinguishing between the two deaths in view. There is physical life, which all men have, and then there is eternal life which Christ bestows upon those who believe.

Now, before men receive life from Christ...they are dead. Only those who are placed in Christ have life, and that is the life we distinguish from the life men are born with.

Secondly, understanding that men do not have life until they receive life from Christ, and we distinguish between being "alive" and "being Alive with Christ," we can now look at death. To illustrate what I am saying, consider a man who is not saved being resurrected physically. He did not have the life of Christ before he died physically, and he does not have the life of Christ when he is raised physically. The bestowing of that life takes place in one's life while they are still alive, and it is a spiritual resurrection. That is what the New Birth is. So those who are born again, born from above, born of the Spirit, and born of God...have life.

Those who are not do not have life, hence they are termed dead.

That is what you are not grasping in what I am saying. When the dead are resurrected to stand before God, because they have not been spiritually resurrected in new birth...they are dead.

And you are not seeing the distinction between spiritual life and physical life. They are "dead" (believers) physically. When the Tribulation Martyrs are raised...it is a physical resurrection into bodies suitable for eternity.

The "rest of the dead," because they have not been spiritually resurrected, but went into Hades spiritually dead...are still dead though one thousand years later they are physically raised.

You say...

True, but this is specific to physical death.

Now, are those who are dead in Christ spiritually dead? No, because they were spiritually resurrected through new birth.

That is what Christ is speaking about here:


John 11:24-26

King James Version (KJV)


24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


And here:


John 6:49-51

King James Version (KJV)


49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


This is the point I keep trying to get you to understand, but you are still only understanding it in a physical context.


Continued...

 

It is accurate, Tanksley, but its okay, I know you don't mean to be offensive, and it does not hurt my feelings, lol. Its just debate, speak your heart.

You say...

I did not "claim that the wicked are given a "glorified" body" in the sense that they are equated to the resurrected believer, because the primary difference between the two is that the dead have not been spiritually resurrected. That spiritual resurrection is why believers are "alive" as opposed to the lost who are dead. They are born without life, and they die without life...physical life does not change that.

What I said was...

What is in view here is the similarity of the physical nature of the resurrected bodies of Saints and unbelievers, which has nothing to do with whether they are "alive" spiritually or not. My saying they are "glorified" should not be meant to equate to glorification concerning believers, who have the life of Christ.

But, as I developed yesterday, Eternal Punishment means just that...punishment which is eternal, and does not end. They will reside in the mists of blackness forever, they are not just simply "burned up." The terminology used by Christ concerning the lost refers to their destruction as physical beings. The "trees" that are cut down represent the physical life of the unbeliever. The branches that are cut out represent the physical lives of the unbelievers. That does not change Scripture's teaching concerning eternal punishment. Nowhere do we see "final punishment," but eternal punishment, torment, and damnation (judgment).

And because you impose a sense of glorification such as is enjoyed by believers you have derailed the focal issue. Again, because unbelievers are raised in physical bodies suitable to withstand eternal torment, in that sense they receive a body like unto the glorified body the believer will receive. I did not imply that unbelievers would have "splendor," lol. That conflicts with the view presented that they will for eternity suffer torment. Again...you read that into it, and it was not there.

But Tanksley...your arguing with yourself. And because of that...you're missing the point.

Again, considering "conditional immortality," we see it is a false concept that has no basis in Scripture. That has been my consistent assertion. The eternal life we have is not conditional, it is in fact guaranteed by the very source of Eternal Life, which is God in us. He has placed His Spirit within us as a guarantee that we shall never die.

And if you look at Christ's teaching...


John 6:50

King James Version (KJV)

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.


...you can consider that here...Christ is not saying men will not die physically.

So what does He mean?

He is speaking about the spiritual life He came to bestow on those that would trust in Him, and John 6 has a specific context of His death:



John 6:50-54

King James Version (KJV)


50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.


Those who trust in Christ, that is, they believe He died for them and place their faith in Him...will never die, because they have eternal life. That eternal life is bestowed when believers are placed in Christ, which is identical in meaning to the eternal indwelling of God, which is the guarantee we have concerning the Security of Salvation in Christ.

Again, unless we distinguish between physical life and death, and spiritual life and death....we will not understand the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When those who are raised to stand before God are raised...they are dead. They have not received life from God, but were born dead, lived their life dead, went into Hades dead, and are physically raised dead.

And that, my friend, is why I do not believe the first believer will stand before the Great White Throne judgment. Those who do stand there will be...dead.


Continued...

 

It's not really an assumption, but based on the fact that there is a distinction given to flesh, which cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. And while unbelievers are in view, there is a practical principle involved, the physical is separated from the spiritual. Who, in their physical form, can enter into the spiritual realm? When this physical universe passes away, it is not really an assumption that the physical has...passed away.

The resurrected dead will be physical, but, that physicality is not identical to the bodies we are born into, which cannot endure either the spirit realm or eternity.

I will cede the point, though, because of course God can make that which is physical stand within what we commonly consider eternity (that which is outside the physical realm we dwell in), but, I think we can safely assert based on Christ and the Apostles teachings concerning eternal separation that the bodies of the lost will be suitable to the eternal torment Scripture teaches, which demands a body which is, like those of the glorified saint...suitable for eternal duration. No glory, splendor, or life is ascribed in that resurrection body as we see believers will receive, it is primarily a physical character and nature in view.

Hence Christ's statement:


Matthew 10:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.



As shown yesterday, the "destruction" here does not demand cessation of existence, and the challenge for you would be to show that in Scripture. The doctrine of cults has made great inroads into the Body of Christ, and it has become more popular to undermine the teaching of Christ and the Word of God in general by removing the fear of God such teachings were given to generate.

The fear of Hell is a healthy fear, and has led more than a few to repent.

Secondly, you have been focused on the physical, and here Christ states that it is not just a fear of physical death men should fear, but that destruction which takes place after death. The term "soul" here is not the immaterial aspect of men, as is populary taught, but represents the person in his total being, meaning both body and spirit. We see this principle in such passages as these...


Acts 7:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.


Acts 27:37

King James Version (KJV)

37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.


Did Joseph send for the immaterial aspects of his father and kindred? Is Paul speaking about three hundred ghostly apparitions being on board?

No, in view are the persons. And this is what Christ is teaching above, that men should not fear those who can only kill the body, but God, Who can destroy (not kill) both body and soul (which speaks of the man in totality, which includes both body and spirit)...in Hell.

You ascribe a sequence that doesn't necessarily exist. John describes where he see the dead stand, and I think it a mistake not to recognize...they are already there.

Consider:


Revelation 20:12-13

King James Version (KJV)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


It's not a matter of "I saw the dead stand before God, and then the sea, death, and Hell delivered up the dead."

He is simply telling us where the dead come from.

The sequence is actually the sea, death and Hell give up the dead, they stand before God, they are judged, and cast into the Lake of Fire.

Another issue you should resolve in order to understand this better is...

...when are men placed in the Book of Life?

I would suggest to you that all men are in the Book of Life, and that the "Lamb's Book of Life" is specific to those who are saved, but, does not detract from the general principle taught in Scripture that men are in the Book of Life, and are blotted out depending on their obedience to God's will. This includes men of all Ages, which is why I believe that this is a public display that shows that everyone cast into Hell went there of their own will. God does not have to justify their eternal separation, but, I believe the Great White Throne does just that.

We don't really have "two positions," it is a matter that you have a position that is not taking into consideration the distinction between the physical and spiritual. You are seeing life as a singular issue, and death as a singular issue, and that is not the case. The life believers have is possessed only by believers, and until you understand that we will continue to go around in circles, and I will be forced to reiterate the same things over and over.

And I see that we agree concerning the Book of Life, at least from what I can see here. That's a bonus, lol, and perhaps that will help in our discussion.

Again, you are imposing a meaning I did not give, and simply stated that "in a sense" they have a body like unto the believers when he is raised, only in that those bodies are suitable to the eternal torment, punishment, separation, and damnation they go into.

Hopefully you will understand that at this point, and drop this from your argument.

We know what happens after judgment...unbelievers are cast into Hell. That is just a Bible truth.

As far as the universe passing away, you are dismissing the point without, I think, really giving it consideration. Hell is a spiritual place. We can't get into a car, boat, or even a spaceship and go there. It is reached only by entering into that spiritual realm in which it exists. When this earth passes away, what is left, we assume, is the spiritual realm this universe was created in. This universe is separate from that realm.

And again the concept of "survivable" is your own. Hell is a state of torment and separation, so we can't really impose a concept of surviving into it, because it is a state of death/separation. Those who die and go into Hades today are not...

...surviving.

They have already gone into everlasting punishment, and I emphasize the word "everlasting." No concept of "surviving" can be imposed into it.

Again I would ask, since it seems you have embraced Annihilation (and if I am wrong forgive me, and clarify your position), exactly what kind of Baptist you are, and whether the Baptist group you are affiliated with actually teaches this. It would be of great interest to me to know.

Before we go any further in this discussion I need you to answer this question.


God bless.

 

Darrell, do you see that this is missing the entire point the OP is making? He and I are claiming that the persons of men ARE mortal and corruptible, and that your side is making a mistake in assuming without any Biblical evidence that they're immortal and/or indestructible. So unless you have scriptural support for the claim they're not, your statement "we know, as I have said", is just repeating your own personal beliefs rather than knowledge.

We do _not_ "know" this unless we find it in the Bible. And it is _not_ in the Bible.

I'm not "missing" that point. I responded to it directly, and you haven't replied -- you actually replied to irrelevant text around it. Men can be "termed dead" even while they're alive, but only in figurative language. In reality, being dead and being alive are mutually exclusive.

In fact, in Romans 6 Paul explicitly calls Christians "dead." This is every bit as obviously a metaphor as Ephesians and Galatians use about the unsaved being dead. It does _not_ mean that we should ignore all of the explicit teaching about death and life the Bible gives.

You admitted I was right with your very first reply -- the Bible normally uses "the dead" not to mean unbelievers' lack of spiritual life, but to mean people who actually died. This is contextually the case here -- and we've been over this many, many times. Both the saved and the unsaved in this passage are explicitly called "the dead", and both receive a resurrection that raises them from the dead.

The rest of Revelation explains how they differ; the people who are not touched by the second death are the ones who overcome. They're the ones whose names were written in the book of life from the foundation of the world.

This is not what John is actually saying in this chapter. You're inserting a made-up systematic theology on top of the Biblical text, completely overriding John's actual words. John is talking about a literal raising of literally dead (and decomposed) people to literal life. He is not referencing any of the other passages that talk about how we have at present the eternal life that unbelievers lack. It's impossible to read the passage the way you're doing it, because BOTH groups, the martyrs AND the rest, are referred to as "the dead."

That may be _true_, Darrell, and I'm willing to discuss it; but it's not "the central focus" of John in Revelation. It's not something he mentions or alludes to. Your attempt to make it the central focus simply distracts from John's actual teaching, and also from our discussion here. This is a serious problem, Darrell, because it's a consistent one in your Scriptural interpretation: you ignore clear teaching passages on the actual topic at hand, in favor of vague implications contained in passages that don't make the distinction.

You seem to assume that only one can be true. In fact, you'll find that both statements are made in clear teaching passages. John tends to emphasize the present reality of eternal life -- that by knowing God and Jesus we partake in a present experience of eternal life (John 17, 1 John). But in saying this John can not ignore the gift of eternal life writers like Paul promise in a future tense, in passages like Romans 2:7, or Jesus' Mar 10:30 quote repeated in every gospel. Nor does John attempt to deny it; he knows that both are true, as is clearly shown in John 11:25-26. In that passage both the present and future promise are given, along with the fact that Jesus IS life. In a sense we have eternal life now, even though in apparent contradiction to that we normally expect to die. But in another sense we teach that eternal life *will* be given at the resurrection, in its most literal and complete sense. Both are true; and it must be so, since our acceptance or rejection of the One who is eternal life now determines irrevocably our eternal fate.

I don't know where you got the idea that it's a "basic Bible principle" -- maybe from Job's comforters who were certain that God normatively punishes the wicked. To say that God kills to punish sin in this age overlooks that God takes credit for ALL deaths in this age, and even for all sparrows falling and all hairs falling out. Simply knowing that God approved of a person's death doesn't tell you whether the person is righteous or unrighteous!

If you ACTUALLY had some clear terms, why don't you quote them? I quoted mine. Show me a verse that teaches the wicked are durable.

Again, your conclusion precedes your logic. Their bodies (and souls) being destroyed is an essential part of their everlasting punishment. There's nothing left of them.

The fire is eternal, yes; it isn't quenched, and their worm doesn't die. But the fire was eternal when it burned Sodom, and incinerated them to ashes, making them an example of the punishment of eternal fire. The fire is still eternal, but it's not burning them -- it already reduced them to ashes, which is the entire point Peter makes in 2 Peter 2:6: "if by turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to ashes he condemned them to extinction, making them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly..."

So why is it important that the fire is eternal? Because the eternal fire is unquenchable, unstoppable. Nothing can survive that is thrown into it; it doesn't dim or wane, ever. In fact, Hebrews 12:29 draws the book to a close with a warning that it is God Himself who is the consuming fire.

No wonder Luke 12, Luke's ONLY mention of gehenna, is so clear that people are killed before being thrown into gehenna. And look at the context: Luke (and Matthew 10) both emphasize Christ's point that His preachers will be threatened with death by men, and they must not try to save their lives by denying Christ, or God will see to it that they lose their lives (or in some of the verses, "lose himself"). The punishment is exactly parallel to the crime -- try to save your life, and you will lose it; except where men can only take your life subject to God's authority, God can take life in a complete and utter way. (This last point is one of the reasons universalism is such a bad understanding of final punishment -- universalism presupposes that God's ultimate punishment is LESS permanent than man's ultimate punishment.)

Now, I understand that you want to talk about "eternal life", but as I've shown above, your theology has blinded you to the clear teaching of the Bible that we (in one sense) HAVE eternal life; and (in another sense) will be given eternal life as an inheritance in the eternal Kingdom. This means that we cannot distinguish between your view and my view using ONLY the teachings about "eternal life". The only reason you think it would work is that you didn't bother looking up how the words are actually used; you imagined that you knew because someone had taught you an incomplete systematic theology and you didn't ever check it against the Bible.

 

The terminology used in the Bible for describing the lenght/duration of Heaven is same as hell, so if one has conditional aspect to Hell, so would heaven!

 

Of course that's true -- the normal state of man is mortality, doomed to die and forbidden to live forever (Genesis 3:22ff). The extraordinary gift of God is that we should not perish, but have everlasting life. To be raised to life, and never to die, _conditional_ on believing in Christ, having Christ's completed work applied to us (John 11).

Thus, heaven is indeed conditional. But "conditional" doesn't mean temporary -- I think you'd better look up the word. It means that it's the opposite of universal. Both you and universalists believe that God will keep the wicked alive and conscious forever; we conditionalists alone deny that. We claim that God will slay the wicked on the Day of Judgment.

 

except that Jesus NEVER stated that, as he made it clear that banishment from God would last forever, and the Apostles also referenced it to be eternal seperation in duration!

And if all the unsaved get snuffed out at same time, how can there be varying degrees of punishment in hell as jesus told us, and how can god be right and just to have a Hitler and a pagan come to same end same way?

How can one commit many more evils, and yet get same treatment from God?

 

I quote these two passages back to back to confront you with the fact that you're falsely accusing me of "imposing" the concept of surviving and durability. They are your claims, not mine. You have repeatedly made the claim that it's obvious that the wicked are given bodies suited for the hell you interpret from the Bible. You've also insisted that I should agree with this durability. And then when I interact with you, you start insisting that I'm "imposing" durability.

The Bible nowhere teaches that the wicked are made durable for the Judgment. On the contrary, it teaches that they're destroyed by it.

I must have overlooked your challenge, sorry. I'll try to find it. My answer will be twofold: first, that the Bible shows that the wicked will be destroyed in the same sense that their body is burned to ashes; and second, that Jesus clearly teaches in this exact passage (Matt 10) that God will take away the exact same thing that men threaten to take away, except that men cannot "finish the job" and God can.

Exactly -- starting with 4th-century cultists who lie to unbelievers, telling them that they could live forever, and continuing to this day with unbelievers mocking the fear of hell by imagining that they'll be hanging out with their buddies. Of course, unlike you I'm not making fun of your belief; I'm pointing out that your belief has been abused by unbelievers in the past, just like mine has. You're pretending that only my belief can be abused.

I love that you recognize this. It's completely true -- the soul is the WHOLE man. In Hebrew, 'nefeshy' ("my soul") is actually used to mean "me". But don't you see that this is a problem for you? Man can only promise to kill the body; God can destroy body and the whole person. In Luke's version of this quote, God can kill and then throw into gehenna.

We have to be careful here -- we don't want to force Revelation into a place it doesn't belong.

God doesn't promise people to live separate from Him. Paul teaches that in God we live, and move, and have our being.

Why on earth can you not handle even admitting that we have different positions? How can you expect to discuss an issue when you won't even allow the other side to present their case?

I'm not imposing _anything_. You actually said several times that the wicked would be given glorified bodies. I think you're now trying to say you didn't mean to say it, except that you're blaming me for reading what you wrote.

Romans 8 is unmistakable: part of the salvation of Christians is to participate in the complete renewal of the entire cosmos. Colossians 1 affirms the same thing: all creation will be renewed with the church at the center and Christ at the head. Luke 1 affirms that Christ will sit on David's throne forever. This is why even the most extreme passage in the entire Bible, Rev 20, doesn't actually say that the heavens and the earth will be destroyed, but rather that they FLED -- and that a New Heavens and New Earth take their place.

If gehenna is a spiritual place (it's possible), the Bible never actually teaches it. Maybe you shouldn't base your entire argument on something the Bible never actually says.

Don't assume. Read the text.

 

I quoted two Biblical texts to back up my claim, one of them the words of Jesus from John 11 and the other the words of God from Genesis 3:22. Are you seriously going to tell me Jesus never said THAT?

Jesus NEVER said "banishment from God will last forever!". The apostles never referenced eternal separation at all, and the closest Jesus ever came was to say "depart from me" -- but He then added "into the eternal fire", not "into a CS Lewis gray town where you're sad to be apart from me".

The apostles, in their preaching in Acts, mention the eternal judgment twice -- once only as a "day of judgment" that's set (but which Paul doesn't explain further); and once as "every soul who does not listen to that prophet shall be destroyed from the people."

That's a good question. The answer is to look at _exactly_ what Jesus taught us.

Mat 11:24 - But I tell you that it will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom than for you.” ​

Notice that: "on the day of Judgment". Unless you believe a "day" means "forever", the tolerability is only temporary.

Luke 12:46-48 ...the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. “And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accord with his will, will receive many lashes, but the one who did not know it, and committed deeds worthy of a flogging, will receive but few. ...​

Look at that: the penalty for the abusive pastor is to be cut in half, just like the unbelievers. Those who are negligent or abusive without realizing it will be afflicted with "few blows", those who knew better with "many blows". The literal meaning of this is a countable punishment.

What about Paul? He taught the same thing.

2 Thess 1:6,10 - For after all it is only just for God to repay with affliction those who afflict you, ... when He comes to be glorified in His saints on that day...​

Notice that the emphasis here is on how the justice of God plays out: He will make the persecutors "afflicted" in the same way they afflicted us. They will pay that just penalty of affliction _when He comes on that Day_. They didn't afflict believers forever; they afflicted us temporarily. Of course, their penalty is "eternal destruction", which sounds like what I believe -- but we disagree on how to interpret that so I won't insist it's a prooftext.

Look up these references. Don't take my word for it.

Here's your answer: they come to an end, in _different_ ways -- but to the same _end_. The differences are due to how they treated people, especially how they treated God's people; but the eternality of the end is due to the fact that they're all complete rebels against the one and same God.

 

I don't think this is relevant to the issue, but what you're describing is impossible. John says that ALL people on earth, EXCEPT those written in the book of life from the foundations of the world, will worship the beast.

Rev 17:8 "The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to rise from the bottomless pit and go to destruction. And the dwellers on earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world will marvel to see the beast, because it was and is not and is to come."

Rev 13:8 "and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain."

So it's not possible that EVERYONE starts out written in it; that would mean NOBODY would worship, because none of them were NOT written from the foundation.

However, again, I don't think this actually is relevant -- it's just that you seem to think it is.

 

I'm sorry, I can't find the message in which you showed this... I assume I'm missing something. Could you clarify, so I can be sure I'm responding to the best argument you have to present?

The closest I could find was a very brief claim that because /apollumi/ can be translated as "lost" in some cases, therefore it doesn't mean "destroy" in the sense I need it to. I'm not sure how you think that follows, nor why you think it's true. It's not something lexicons teach -- they affirm specific conditions when /apollumi/ means "lost", and distinct conditions when it means "destroyed". I don't know how expert you are at Greek, but one English-compatible rule is that the Greek word, from our perspective, takes on different meanings depending on whether the object is _objectively_ or only _subjectively_ changed by the experience. A lost sheep or coin isn't changed, but only seems changed from the perspective of the owner; but when Jesus says "the one who has the POWER to DESTROY", he's not talking about a subjective experience God has, but an objective fact that changes the body and soul of the disobedient pastor in a manner best translated as "destroy".

 

You are missing something, to be sure, but as I said, I will not invest time in this when it seems that you are having trouble comprehending what is being said.

What you are doing is simply going in circles, and until you can address each point that we might resolve some issues, again, I will not invest time in a discussion with you.

Furthermore, I have asked you twice...what kind of Baptist group teaches Annihilation. As I said, I need to know what kind of Baptist you are before I will pursue this any further.

Answer that and I will address the confusion you have presented in these last responses. Here is an example of your confusion:

What I said was that there is no concept of survival imposed into the condition of men in Hades, which extends itself to their fate in Hell. If you had given some thought to what was being said, you would not have concluded that I was saying you are both an Annihilationist as well as believing that men survive, lol.

Here is you imposing a scenario of survivability:

The simple point is that physical death and the Second death do not have a concept of "surviving," because as shown...men who do not have the Life of Christ...are dead.

So what are they "surviving" in either Hades or Hell?

You can see a survival when the heavens and earth pass away, that the dead can exist in a spiritual state when the material has vanished, yet you insist on the dead being annihilated.

So tell me, what kind of Baptist you are, and I will address your responses. Annihilation is not taught by any Baptist Group I know, and if there is one, I would like to know who they are.


God bless.

 

After having given this some thought, I think it unlikely you will actually state what kind of "Baptist" you are, and since you teach the doctrine of Jehovah's Witnesses, I will go ahead and address the responses, because I feel that cult dictrine should be addressed at every opportunity, and besides...

...its quite enjoyable.

As shown, they are your claims, your doctrine, your teaching...

And the worst part is, like all of the points raised to you...you ignore the focus of what I say in the quotes, hence struggling to find an inconsistency in my doctrine.

You need to learn how to understand what is implicit as well as what is explicit, or you will arrive at conclusions as such as we see you arriving at.

Eternal Torment demands a resurrected body suitable to eternity. As shown in a number of ways already, the fate of men is identical to that of the devil and his angels. And what you do is insert something not there, that this Basic Bible Doctrine is not correct, but that the doctrine of cults is correct.

Since you have consistently ignored the address on this issue so far, as well as the Scripture, I will simply remind you of the Antichrist and the False Prophet, who are seen in Hell for a thousand years...and are not annihilated.

You seem have "missed" that point as well, but here you go, an opportunity to correct that oversight.

And your answer is as wrong now as it was when you originally gave it.

1. The terminology of being burned up is primarily in refernce to the physical man coming under judgment.

2. Matthew 10:28 was addressed in detail.

This is why you will go in circles, Tanksley, because you cannot address the points. And while I do not mind trying to work through this, it is a little troubling that you call yourself a Baptist. There is a reason why the Baptist Forums are closed to Baptists, so that those who come here understand what Baptists believe. And while there are many differences in the various groups, one thing I do not see as tolerable is the public getting the erroneous impression that Baptists teach the doctrine of cults.

That too is a Basic Bible truth rejected by the cults who teach a perverted Gospel.

We do preach to unbelievers...Eternal Life in Christ.

Which is why you apparently miss the points I have made. Perhaps you do get them, but because you reject Eternal Life for the believer, and see it as something received in the Resurrection of the dead.

And that is the result of...your doctrine.

Because the cults have so convoluted a very simple Bible Doctrine...many do not take it seriously.

There is no fear of God in their hearts, nor fear for the consequences of their sin. If their lives end at physical death, as the Sadducees taught, then why not party it up?



Matthew 24:38

King James Version (KJV)

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,



Now to what aspect of man does this refer to, Tanksley? Did they die physically? Or spiritually?

Do they still exist? They do...in Hades. And they did not cease to exist at physical death, nor shall they cease to exist after the Second Death.


Matthew 24:48-51

King James Version (KJV)

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


When does the weeping and gnashing of teeth begin, Tanksley?

Not muich point in telling you that the wicked will be cast out into outer darkness...where their will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. Not much point in reiterating that for the wicked among men, the mists of darkness is the reservation they have, contrasted with the reservation we have.

Because you reject these Basic Bible Principles. So far you have rejected Scripture's teaching on Hell as well as Scripture's teaching that when we are saved...

...we receive eternal life, then and there. It is guaranteed by the very inidwelling of God.

Making fun of it? On the contrary, I take it very seriously, because you are posing as a Baptist teaching the doctrines of those who have been rejected as cults for millennia.

My beliefs have not been abused, lol. You are not even comprehending what I believe, so you are not qualified to make that assumption.

While there are believers who do not properly understand Eternal Security, and have a "greasy grace" mentality, its more likely that those who believe they can sin and live for the world are not in fact saved, merely religious people looking for fire insurance.

I have pretended nothing, lol. I have addressed your doctrine, that's it.

Your doctrine is not abused...it is false. Your denial of Hell and Eternal Punishment cannot be abused...only exposed for what it is.


Continued...

 

You start out good...but then defeat everything you begin to say.

1. the "soul" in view is the man in totality, which is, in this context, not just the body, and not just the spirit that separates from the body when it dies. The "soul" being destroyed is the individual that goes into Hell for destruction, and he has a body. This is contrasted with the physical plane where men kill the body only, the spirit still exists.

2. I gave the Greek for the word translated as detroy, and examples of those in a state of destruction who were clearly still in existence.

3. You completely destroy your own argument when you say...

Simply hilarious. You are acknowledging that the destruction in view follows being put to death.

And that is one of your problems, my friend...you simply do not, yet, realize just how consistent the Word of God is.

Nevertheless, we see this as a principle set forth in the Old Testament:



Exodus 32:32-34

King James Version (KJV)


32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

33 And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.

34 Therefore now go, lead the people unto the place of which I have spoken unto thee: behold, mine Angel shall go before thee: nevertheless in the day when I visit I will visit their sin upon them.




Psalm 69:20-28

King James Version (KJV)


20 Reproach hath broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for some to take pity, but there was none; and for comforters, but I found none.

21 They gave me also gall for my meat; and in my thirst they gave me vinegar to drink.

22 Let their table become a snare before them: and that which should have been for their welfare, let it become a trap.

23 Let their eyes be darkened, that they see not; and make their loins continually to shake.

24 Pour out thine indignation upon them, and let thy wrathful anger take hold of them.

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.

26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.

27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.

28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.



The simple question to ask yourself is...don't they have to be in there if they are blotted out?

Christ teaches this also:


Revelation 3

King James Version (KJV)


5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.



Consider 1 John 5:1-5 to see John define what it means, and how...one overcomes.

lest you should think this refers only to those saved, consider:



Revelation 3:20-22

King James Version (KJV)


20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.


In view is a call to salvation, not reformation. Those who overcome are promise, (1) that Christ will come in to them (see John 14:23), and (2) that they will not be blotted out of the Book of Life, which, cannot occur if they were never in there to begin with.


Continued...

 

?

Just to remind you, in view was the casting into Hell of unbelievers who are dead.

Not sure why...

1. You think we two opposing positions when you are not distinguishing the difference between the physical and spiritual elements taught in regards to the judgment of men;

2. You think I am not "allowing" you to present your case (hint hint...response to your position above, lol);

3. You are not grasping the responses as directly confronting the error you teach.


Because you do not understand that we are made alive in Christ when we are saved, and view that as a future event, you cannot understand why believers are alive though physically dead, and unbelievers are dead even after being resurrected.

No, Tanksley, I said one time that...

...and have since several times addressed your imposition of "glory" and "splendor" and an equation to the Life believers have.

But you don't want to own up to your misunderstanding, hence you continue to go in circles.

I meant every word I said, and it goes back to something I originally stated:

That is the consistent point I have stated from the beginning and I am very sorry you are missing it.


Continued...

 

And this shows that the heavens and earth do not pass away...how?

And this shows that the heavens and earth do not pass away...how?

And this shows that the heavens and earth do not pass away...how?

You do realize you are saying two things here, right?

1. The heavens and the earth are not destroyed;

2. A new heavens and earth...will take their place.


Read it again:


Revelation 20:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

Its "possible Hell might be a spiritual place?"

Of course not, must be a planet or something out there God will house the devil, his angels, and the wicked in.

Begin with the verse above.

My guess would be you have not yet been able to understand the difference between the Eternal State and the Millennial Kingdom, at which time we will see a reformation of this current universe. Doesn't change the fact that this universe passes out of existence and when Scripture states there is a new heavens and earth, they are in fact new:


Revelation 21

King James Version (KJV)

21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

I read the text. lol. That is why I am pretty confident there was found no place for them.



And that is all the time I have today. Thanks for the opportunity to address this issue in greater detail, I am enjoying it quite a bit, and wish I had more time to devote to it now. But, I will get to the others.

And I will await your correction of my assumption that your doctrine is that of Jehovah Witnesses, when you identify exactly which Baptist group teaches annihilation and the insecurity of salvation in Christ.


God bless.

 

Thought I would catch a few more of these this evening as I am not sure I will have any time tomorrow, and didn't want to keep you hanging.

It seems it was understandable enough for you to say...

Well, let's take a look at a few passages where it is translated as lost:


Luke 15:24

King James Version (KJV)


24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.


You know, I have never gotten the feeling that the Prodigal Son was stumbling around lost, or that the father uses this word in that context.



John 17:12

King James Version (KJV)

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.


Did Judas get sidetracked on a country road? Or is "lost" defined right here in the verse?



2 Corinthians 4:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:



Does Paul mean...the people he can't find?

And when we look at the Bible as a whole, my friend, we can conclude that "the Lost Sheep of Israel" speaks of a people in a state of destruction.

Which takes us back to Matthew 10:28, you still have no proof-text to justify Annihilation.


God bless.