Darrell C said: ↑
The dead are not simply raised in physical bodies, for one thing, the heavens and the earth will have passed out of existence at that point: Can a body which is physical only...exist in a scenario that has no substance?
Why would you assume there's no substance in the scenario? All that's happened is the earth and heaven fled; there's no reason whatsoever to suppose that it's become impossible for a physical body to survive. In the vision, heaven and earth flee away, but then the oceans give up their dead.
It's not really an assumption, but based on the fact that there is a distinction given to flesh, which cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. And while unbelievers are in view, there is a practical principle involved, the physical is separated from the spiritual. Who, in their physical form, can enter into the spiritual realm? When this physical universe passes away, it is not really an assumption that the physical has...passed away.
The resurrected dead will be physical, but, that physicality is not identical to the bodies we are born into, which cannot endure either the spirit realm or eternity.
I will cede the point, though, because of course God can make that which is physical stand within what we commonly consider eternity (that which is outside the physical realm we dwell in), but, I think we can safely assert based on Christ and the Apostles teachings concerning eternal separation that the bodies of the lost will be suitable to the eternal torment Scripture teaches, which demands a body which is, like those of the glorified saint...suitable for eternal duration. No glory, splendor, or life is ascribed in that resurrection body as we see believers will receive, it is primarily a physical character and nature in view.
Hence Christ's statement:
Matthew 10:28
King James Version (KJV)
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
As shown yesterday, the "destruction" here does not demand cessation of existence, and the challenge for you would be to show that in Scripture. The doctrine of cults has made great inroads into the Body of Christ, and it has become more popular to undermine the teaching of Christ and the Word of God in general by removing the fear of God such teachings were given to generate.
The fear of Hell is a healthy fear, and has led more than a few to repent.
Secondly, you have been focused on the physical, and here Christ states that it is not just a fear of physical death men should fear, but that destruction which takes place after death. The term "soul" here is not the immaterial aspect of men, as is populary taught, but represents the person in his total being, meaning both body and spirit. We see this principle in such passages as these...
Acts 7:14
King James Version (KJV)
14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.
Acts 27:37
King James Version (KJV)
37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.
Did Joseph send for the immaterial aspects of his father and kindred? Is Paul speaking about three hundred ghostly apparitions being on board?
No, in view are the persons. And this is what Christ is teaching above, that men should not fear those who can only kill the body, but God, Who can destroy (not kill) both body and soul (which speaks of the man in totality, which includes both body and spirit)...in Hell.
Can a sea which is physical remain while the earth is fled, or can it give up dead? Can death and hades be cast into the lake of fire? These are questions that, like yours, don't tell us anything about the text, but rather tell us that we're asking the wrong questions.
You ascribe a sequence that doesn't necessarily exist. John describes where he see the dead stand, and I think it a mistake not to recognize...they are already there.
Consider:
Revelation 20:12-13
King James Version (KJV)
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
It's not a matter of "I saw the dead stand before God, and then the sea, death, and Hell delivered up the dead."
He is simply telling us where the dead come from.
The sequence is actually the sea, death and Hell give up the dead, they stand before God, they are judged, and cast into the Lake of Fire.
Another issue you should resolve in order to understand this better is...
...when are men placed in the Book of Life?
I would suggest to you that all men are in the Book of Life, and that the "Lamb's Book of Life" is specific to those who are saved, but, does not detract from the general principle taught in Scripture that men are in the Book of Life, and are blotted out depending on their obedience to God's will. This includes men of all Ages, which is why I believe that this is a public display that shows that everyone cast into Hell went there of their own will. God does not have to justify their eternal separation, but, I believe the Great White Throne does just that.
But furthermore, you're asking a question that doesn't distinguish between our two positions. Even if I supposed your question was correct, so what? The answer isn't "they have glorified bodies", but rather "God intends them to stand judgment and won't let them escape it." That answer doesn't beg any questions about what happens after judgment, doesn't depend on questionable assumptions about all matter being destroyed or the environment of the judgment being unsurvivable (why would you think it's unsurvivable?).
We don't really have "two positions," it is a matter that you have a position that is not taking into consideration the distinction between the physical and spiritual. You are seeing life as a singular issue, and death as a singular issue, and that is not the case. The life believers have is possessed only by believers, and until you understand that we will continue to go around in circles, and I will be forced to reiterate the same things over and over.
And I see that we agree concerning the Book of Life, at least from what I can see here. That's a bonus, lol, and perhaps that will help in our discussion.
Even if I supposed your question was correct, so what? The answer isn't "they have glorified bodies", but rather "God intends them to stand judgment and won't let them escape it."
Again, you are imposing a meaning I did not give, and simply stated that "in a sense" they have a body like unto the believers when he is raised, only in that those bodies are suitable to the eternal torment, punishment, separation, and damnation they go into.
Hopefully you will understand that at this point, and drop this from your argument.
That answer doesn't beg any questions about what happens after judgment, doesn't depend on questionable assumptions about all matter being destroyed or the environment of the judgment being unsurvivable (why would you think it's unsurvivable?).
We know what happens after judgment...unbelievers are cast into Hell. That is just a Bible truth.
As far as the universe passing away, you are dismissing the point without, I think, really giving it consideration. Hell is a spiritual place. We can't get into a car, boat, or even a spaceship and go there. It is reached only by entering into that spiritual realm in which it exists. When this earth passes away, what is left, we assume, is the spiritual realm this universe was created in. This universe is separate from that realm.
And again the concept of "survivable" is your own. Hell is a state of torment and separation, so we can't really impose a concept of surviving into it, because it is a state of death/separation. Those who die and go into Hades today are not...
...surviving.
They have already gone into everlasting punishment, and I emphasize the word "everlasting." No concept of "surviving" can be imposed into it.
Again I would ask, since it seems you have embraced Annihilation (and if I am wrong forgive me, and clarify your position), exactly what kind of Baptist you are, and whether the Baptist group you are affiliated with actually teaches this. It would be of great interest to me to know.
Before we go any further in this discussion I need you to answer this question.
God bless.