Featured What do we believe about “hell?”

Why?
So that you're the only one left on a high horse?

So you can be the only one to look down on all us false converts? Yell at us from your high horse about how we should bow the knee to Ray Comfort?

Thanks, but I like my high horse just as much as you like yours

 

What does good fruit have to do with anything in this discussion?

The fruit He mentioned was TEACHING, not behavior

 

Hebrews 9:9 & 10:1-2 say plainly that the blood of bulls and goats could never make the comer perfect

Hebrews 10:14 says He has forever perfected those who are sanctified.

Hebrews 10:4 says it is impossible for the blood of animals to take away sin.


Hebrews 12:22-24 says we have come not to Sinai, but to the holy mountain - Zion
And to the spirits of the righteous made perfect


Made perfect by the blood of Christ. By his stripes we are healed. The blood of Christ cleanses us from sin

With the animals, since could be covered. And a sinner could only be viewed as righteous & perfect. But in Christ, that all became a reality. The types were put away when Jesus paid the price.

 

I never said you were a false convert James so you can stop with that lie.

 

How about a better idea?

How about you, and I, and everyone here stop expressing opinions about someone's character, and especially based on scriptural interpretation ??

It's 100% fruitless, and adds nothing but distraction to the thread.

 

Stop trying to change the subject James. You were caught in a lie and have yet to apologize for this lie.

 

I'm not sorry, so why would you want a disingenuous apology?

It was an intentional play on my part, in response to your ignorant claim that I'm a SemiPelagian

You haven't apologized for that one, right? You've also never apologized for calling me a jerk 4 months ago. That whole high horse thing.

I was hopeful that if you got a taste of your own medicine it might jolt your thinking a little.

And to be straight, I don't want an apology from you. I don't want you to be sorry, I want you to be different.

 

I will go out on the heretical limb and say that they are metaphorical.

However I do believe that hell is the abode of those who are consigned to be eternally separated form God.

This would INDEED be hell for me.

People suffer there but what is the nature and intensity of that suffering I dare not even guess.

HankD

 

No wonder so many have you on ignore! Your garbage posts are toxic to many.

 

I know, right?

I mean, all those rabbit pictures I post...Whistling

 

I don't really see that the two are mutually exclusive. Metaphor is used often to express the literal. I think one thing to consider is that we have to visualize the truth taught through that which we are accustomed to through experience, which for example might be to consider the "fire which is not quenched." The fire is used to speak of torment, so we understand this fire has an adverse reaction to those in Hell. We also see that there will be darkness, which in our understanding, seems to be contradictory to the concept of fire which produces light. Either way, we are left with the concepts the metaphors illustrate. Darkness doesn't always mean the absence of physical light, and light is not always meant to represent physical light, but, these terms are used to speak of truth and the condition of living outside of that truth.

Something I have considered for many years in regards to the "Lake of Fire," is that rather than a literal body of fire, this phrase could also represent a pretty simple concept: "The Place of Judgment." We consider the Great White Throne as a "place of judgment," but there is also the actual "place" where that judgment is inflicted.

Though I am often rebuked for being a literalist, I lean more towards a view that views Hell as more than just a singular lake of fire and brimstone, because I see varying degrees of punishment assigned to unbelievers. I think that for some the torment will be like unto being in literal flames, whereas for others there is that torment of isolation and darkness. So it's a combination, so to speak, maybe defined as "literal metaphor," lol.

Hope that makes sense.


God bless.

 

"Perfection" is the state of every born again believer. We find this concept primarily taught in Hebrews, where the Writer draws continually the contrast between the Old Testament Saint (who was not made perfect because he had not received the promise/s) and the believer who has embraced Christ and gone on unto perfection.

How one can be perfect yet not have perfect actions is simply by looking at out positional sanctification as opposed to our progressive sanctification. A good example of this is Paul's teaching about justification before God, and James' (the Apostle, not the member) teaching about our justification before men, two entirely different teachings.

While it is true that only a good tree produces fruit, that does not mean that there is never the need for fertilizing, growth, and pruning.

As an example of the perfection taught in Hebrews (which is what I think James (the member, not the Apostle) is seen here:


Hebrews 7:11-12

James Version (KJV)


11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.


Here "perfection" has in view the work which was performed by the Priest/s. That which can make perfect awaited a Priest Whose service brought to an end and achieved the result the service accomplished.

The point here would be that if the Levitical Priesthood could make complete through their service those they served, there would not have been a need for another Priest, and of course Christ is in view. The corollary being...Christ could make perfect, or, complete.

This is stated in specificity here:



Hebrews 10:10-14

King James Version (KJV)


10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:

12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



This is the Writer's concluding statement on what he previously teaches:



Hebrews 10

King James Version (KJV)


1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.

3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.


The context ceners on remission of sins, and what the Writer teaches us is that Levitical Service and the Priesthood of the Law could not bring to an end the purpose of their service,which was the forgiveness of sins.

But, Christ, Our Great High Priest...has done this.

We are set apart unto Christ once, and those set apart unto Christ are made perfect, or complete, in regards to sin...

...for ever.

This is the clearest statement of Eternal Security in Scripture in my view, as it shows that the remission of sins in Christ is an eternal act of God.

This was promised to Israel in the promise of the New Covenant...



Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version (KJV)


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.



Hebrews 8:7-12

King James Version (KJV)


7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.



...and made clear in perhaps one of the most misunderstood chapters in all of Scripture (Hebrews 6 taking a close second):


Hebrews 10:14-18

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.


When we receive remission of sins through Christ, we are eternally forgiven. There never need be, like it was in the case of the Old Testament Saint...need for another sacrifice. This was the promise of God to Israel, and by extension, to the world as a whole (and we speak of Gentile inclusion).

And we see that same theme clarified in the next chapter:



Hebrews 11:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.



Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)


39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Though we made perfect in Christ, this does not mean that we are, when saved, "perfect" in the modern sense of the word in regards to practical living and sin. We are called babes in Christ for a good reason, because we all begin like babes in need of growth, understanding, and ability to put into practice that which we learn of God and His heart, and His will for our lives.

And I think that is what James has in mind, and if I am wrong, he can correct me.


God bless.