You believe that you are absolutely sinless?
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Penal Substitution Theology and the faith of those without it
- Thread starter JonC
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Of course not. But the promise of eternal life was based upon a determination ratified long before said promise was made:
Ephesians 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
Titus 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;
HankD
I agree.
For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it. Romans 8:24,25
What will be given eternal life? Why will it be given eternal life?
I believe, the body of flesh because of the obedience of one, in the body of flesh unto death and being made alive again in the Spirit unto the righteousness of God.
Penal Substitution and inheriting the promise of God, The Hope, by the heir of God, the Son of God???
I agree also.
Hope has a basis in faith.
Abraham had hope that God would resurrect Issac after he sacrificed him but it did turn out differently.
Romans 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
HankD
That was all that was accomplished. Everything else occurs at "reconciliation."
The disagreement that I have with you, Van, is one of definition (the same as I have with TCassidy except that I think his is also being a bit mendacious with some of his objections).
You are referring to the Atonement specifically as Christ's death on the cross. I believe that the Atonement itself covers much more. Pointing to the Cross, Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 5 that God was through Christ reconciling the world to himself (and this is a ministry that continues through us). If you point to Christ's death alone, then it does not save a soul. We cannot separate the Cross from the Incarnation, nor either from the Resurrection. That is precisely what so many seem to do. Reconciliation cannot be divorced from atonement, partly because atonement is reconciliation.
No, actually my view is the opposite, I refer to our "reconciliation" as occurring specifically when God places us spiritually into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ, the washing of regeneration, and are made alive together with Christ. This is when we are made at one with God.
You can claim the two separate actions (the purchase and the redemption) cannot be separated but you have no support in scripture or logic for the assertion.
2 Corinthians 5:18-19 does not point to the cross but to reconciliation. First, we who have been reconciled have been placed in Christ, and united with Christ. Then our job, our ministry, is to spread the message of reconciliation. God is (today and to the end of the age) reconciling the world [one sinner at a time as they are placed in Christ]. No one was reconciled when Christ died, but only when they follow Him in regeneration.
To spell it out out:
1) Christ's death of the cross purchased (ransomed) all mankind. He became the propitiation or means of salvation (reconciliation) for the whole world.
2) When God transfers us from the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son, we undergo the circumcision of Christ, where our sin burden (what God had or would hold against us) is removed and we arise in Christ a new creation, regenerated and made alive. We are then sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit.
This is a simple straightforward two step process, no need to confuse (and combine) the two steps.
Why are you working so hard to avoid discussing the points of the thread?
Did you ever think that perhaps the reason I cannot find support that the "purchase" and the "redemption" are separate actions is that I have never tried because that is not what I believe? If not, then maybe you should simply ask, and I'll say again that I do not believe that salvation can be segmented into mini-doctrines that stand alone in isolation. They can be discussed and studied but not apart from the whole.
To spell it out:
1. Christ's death is as I indicated and Scripture has affirmed, the purchase of all mankind. As the quote I offered stated, the Cross "makes possible and purchases a bonafide offer for every person on the planet." Do you deny this?
2. When we are saved, we are placed "in Christ". We are regenerated and made alive (I used the word "re-created". Do you deny this?
My new man certainly is. If not Christ's sacrifice failed miserably.
1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
Because:
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
How can you even be in this discussion if you don't understand positional righteousness?
You sure are working hard to avoid supporting your claims!
Careful with the assumptions. I understand positional righteousness but did not want to assume you had the same understanding (I already made the erroneous assumption that you were aware of "the Atonement" as indicating a broader doctrine and did not want to repeat the mistake). When we say that we are absolutely sinless and do not specify this is "Christ in us" or "positional" then there is room for misunderstanding. Words, after all, have specific meanings.
Wonderful! Well, except that is not my view, but that has never stopped you before.
You still seem very confused. Propitiation is not Atonement. It is the result of the Atonement. Reconciliation is not Atonement. It is the result of the Atonement. Redemption is not the Atonement. It is the result of the Atonement. Salvation is not Atonement. It is the result of the Atonement.
Yes, if course, and since I never made any claim to sinless perfection I wonder what "words" you were reading? Something that existed only in your own mind?
I was referring to your response to Hank's comments (post# 91). It brought to mind a comment that someone (I think JamesL) made on another similar thread. And no, it was not something that existed in my own mind, and it was not something that I am saying you claimed. I was asking a question.
All "combativeness" aside, I am not confused on my own position and I am not confused on your position. I believe that you also understand both of our positions very well. Everything we've discussed here so far has been fairly elementary and basic. I am not uneducated. Your education exceeds mine. There is no reason we should play the other as a fool. There are doctrines that we can unite under, and doctrines on which we will never agree.
This thread was about theories of the Atonement. I do believe that you purposely misrepresented my words to create an argument by diverting from the OP and into the meaning of the word itself. And I believe I have been responding to you in kind.
I still maintain that if expiation is a suitable meaning for the atonement then so is propitiation. I believe both to be examining different aspects of the same event, the same thing, the same atonement. We disagree. My position is not, as you have said, outside of orthodox Christianity. It may be outside of what you call "orthodox", which frankly should be a concern to neither of us. We simply disagree.
Either we can disagree honestly or we can disagree dishonestly. I am asking that you will consider honest disagreement when we don't see eye to eye. I am not certain when dialogue shifted between us to hostility, but I cannot help but see it that way at every turn. If you have a question about something I have said, or want explanation of my view, then certainly ask and I will try my best to offer a coherent explanation. If you cannot do this without accusations of confusion, ignorance or unorthodox then perhaps the issue is not with the people with whom you disagree.
Hi Jon, I deny that the purchase and the reconciliation are not separate actions. They are separate actions. I understand you say you believe differently but seem unwilling to support it.
You can say the the purchase (paid by the blood of Christ) cannot be separated from the reconciliation (God putting us spiritually into Christ) but I am sure you do not expect me to see any biblical or logical support for the view.
Please reference the scripture that supports Christ's death "purchased the bonafide offer to all" mankind.
Of course it did, but the offer is part of our ministry of reconciliation.
Your second question suggests you did not make much effort to read my posts.
Unless we can understand what Christ accomplished on the Cross, and what Christ accomplishes through reconciliation, we are not presenting the gospel clearly.
Propitiation = Christ = means of salvation (reconciliation)
Redemption = Act of salvation
Reconciliation = Result of Salvation, at one with God.
You can say the the purchase (paid by the blood of Christ) cannot be separated from the reconciliation (God putting us spiritually into Christ) but I am sure you do not expect me to see any biblical or logical support for the view.
Please reference the scripture that supports Christ's death "purchased the bonafide offer to all" mankind.
Of course it did, but the offer is part of our ministry of reconciliation.
Your second question suggests you did not make much effort to read my posts.
Unless we can understand what Christ accomplished on the Cross, and what Christ accomplishes through reconciliation, we are not presenting the gospel clearly.
Propitiation = Christ = means of salvation (reconciliation)
Redemption = Act of salvation
Reconciliation = Result of Salvation, at one with God.
Hey Brother,
I do not know how much we disagree (we do, certainly, in terms of election but in terms of the Atonement I am not certain). I apologize if it appears that I did not read your post. It is quite the opposite, I assure you. You and I have been arguing the same thing against each other to a great extent. I was trying to point that out.
One thing that I am having difficulty following is your definition of the atonement as "at-one-ment" but at the same time separate from reconciliation.
"The word atonement, is almost the only theological term of English origin. It was likely first used in Tyndale's English translation as derived from the adv. phrase atonen, meaning "in accord," literally, at one. In the English Bible, it is mainly used to translate theHebrew word kipur, although it is used once in the King James New Testament to translate the Greek word katallage (see Romans 5:11). Most modern translations render this word "reconciliation" in its other occurrences throughout the N.T."
Hi Jon, the reason you are having difficult is that you think my "definition of the atonement as "at-one-ment" but at the same time separate from reconciliation." Your understanding of my position is mistaken. In my view, Reconciliation and "at one with God" are the same thing. They are not separate. I almost never use the word "atonement" because you say it means more than "reconciliation." My translation (NASB) translated the Greek word as reconciliation.
This is from my prior post, "Reconciliation = Result of Salvation, at one with God."
And yes, my translation renders "katallage" as reconciliation all four places it appears.
So to repeat, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind. Everyone, the saved and those who will be saved, and the lost and those who will remain lost were purchased with His blood.
When God puts believers into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, regenerated, made alive together with Christ. This is our reconciliation. We are no longer separated from God.
This is from my prior post, "Reconciliation = Result of Salvation, at one with God."
And yes, my translation renders "katallage" as reconciliation all four places it appears.
So to repeat, Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, becoming the propitiation or means of salvation for all mankind. Everyone, the saved and those who will be saved, and the lost and those who will remain lost were purchased with His blood.
When God puts believers into Christ, we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, regenerated, made alive together with Christ. This is our reconciliation. We are no longer separated from God.
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