Penal Substitution Theology and the faith of those without it

[Van]

No where in the entire first chapter of John does it say Christ has reconciled the world. It does say behold the Lamb of God who is taking away (present tense) the sin of the world. This is consistent with God reconciling the world through Christ one sinner at a time by the washing of regeneration.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hi Martin, I know you do not deny that Christ is the means of salvation. And you do not deny Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, all of humanity. I have posted what the Greek word family means several times. I fear you are wanting to change the subject because what Christ accomplished on the cross was not the reconciliation of all mankind.l

I absolutely do deny that Christ is the 'means of salvation.' He is the Saviour! He saved us (Matthew 1:21; Titus 2:13-14 etc.). He might possibly be called the means of reconciliation (Colossians 1:20). You can plough your way all through the Scriptures and you will never find Him being called the 'means of salvation.' Faith in Christ is, I suppose, the means of salvation.

I also deny that Christ is the propitiation for all humanity, but these are not the questions I was asking. I am interested to know if you know what 'propitiation' actually means.

 

[Van]

Perhaps we might return to the thread topic, accurately stated as Penal Substitutionary Sin Offering.

 

[Van]

Martin, you can deny scripture till the cows come home. Christ is the means of salvation. No man comes to the Father except through Him.

 

[JonC]

No where in the entire first chapter of John does it say Christ has reconciled the world. It does say behold the Lamb of God who is taking away (present tense) the sin of the world. This is consistent with God reconciling the world through Christ on sinner at a time by the washing of regeneration.

The Word became flesh. Humanity is reconciled with divinity. This is the basic, foundational element that you are denying. The condition of being man, being human, is reconciled to God in such a way that men can be reconciled to God. Did you not consider that there is a reason (beyond mere communication or exampke) that God took upon himself humanity?

I don't know if you read much of John Wesley (if not, you should as his works would have saved you a few erroneous "logical conclusions), but there is a reason he paused in awe over the words you so easily skim over - God is with us. In fact, those were his dying words -"The best of all, God is with us." Humanity reconciled in Christ so that men may be reconciled to God. You think this too much as a business transaction, Van.

 

[Van]

Hi John, you need to support your inventions with scripture. All this reading between the lines is without merit. Yes scripture denies humanity is reconciled with God, but supports God is reconciling humanity to Himself. You cannot change "reconciling" to reconciled no matter how often you repeat your belief.

Pay no attention of how JohC presents my views, unless supported by quotes. Next he will have me denying the incarnation.

 

[JonC]

Hi John, you need to support your inventions with scripture. All this reading between the lines is without merit. Yes scripture denies humanity is reconciled with God, but supports God is reconciling humanity to Himself. You cannot change "reconciling" to reconciled no matter how often you repeat your belief.

Pay no attention of how JohC presents my views, unless supported by quotes. Next he will have denying the incarnation.

Then please explain. In the Incarnation was humanity (man) and divinity (God) reconciled or at odds? If at odds then how? If, as I think, reconciled, then what is the significance?

 

[Van]

"The Lord Jesus, by his perfect obedience and sacrifice of himself, which he through the eternal Spirit once offered up unto God, hath fully satisfied the justice of his Father; and purchased not only reconciliation, but an everlasting inheritance in the kingdom of heaven, for all those whom the Father hath given unto him."

 

[Van]

Then please explain. In the Incarnation was humanity (man) and divinity (God) reconciled or at odds? If at odds then how? If, as I believe, reconciled, then what is the significance?

Jon, you seem to be floundering around trying to find a basis in scripture for conflating the purchase with the reconciliation. Paul tells us God is reconciling what you claim has been reconciled.

 

[JonC]

Jon, you seem to be floundering around trying to find a basis in scripture for conflating the purchase with the reconciliation. Paul tells us God is reconciling what you claim has been reconciled.

I'msorry that you feel that way Van. I had hoped for a better discussion.

Paul says that in Christ God was reconciling the world and that this ministry of reconciliation continues through us. Here, we are speaking of the reconciliation of men.When I say that human nature was reconciled with divine nature in Christ you balk at the word "reconcile". But it is essential that human nature be reconciled in Christ in order that men be reconciled to God. And no, this is not "floundering". I am insisting upon the exact same thing I've been saying throughout this thread.

In Christ human nature is reconciled with divine nature. Because of this reconciliation, this incarnation, ministry, death and resurrection men can be reconciled. You do not see how I believe this and I cannot fathom how it escapes your notice. We simply disagree. There is no need to get ugly towards each other because of that disagreement.

I ask again, brother, in Christ was human nature reconciled with divine nature or did they remain at odds?

In post #161 you indicated that the early church got it wrong. But you also indicate that the Reformers, and later Wesley, got it wrong. This causes me to pause, not that they are an authority but just to wonder if anyone else throughout history has discovered the "truth" you espouse. Are you the only one who holds to this view that in Christ human nature was not reconciled to God, or are there others you can point to that may help me better understand the position?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, you can deny scripture till the cows come home. Christ is the means of salvation. No man comes to the Father except through Him.

I quoted three Scriptures in my post, none of which you have referenced. Van, as ever, you are confusing the hammer with the blacksmith, the ship with the captain. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Saviour, not the means.

Also, although you may be able to copy Greek words out of a book, I am not convinced that you know what 'propitiation' means in English.

But as our propitiationary [sic] shelter, everyone God places in Christ is reconciled.

I am unable to find any such word as 'propitiationary' in the English language. Perhaps you mean 'propitiatory'? But if so, what is a 'propitiatory shelter' and where is it found in Scripture? And what text are you thinking of when you speaking of God 'placing' people in Christ? Perhaps you have misinterpreted Colossians 1:13?

 

[Van]

JonC it is time to end this discussion. First you conflate reconciling with reconciled, then you claim because Jesus was both man and God, that somehow reconciled humanity. LOL

There was a reason Christ suffered and died on the cross Jon, and it was to provide the means of reconciliation for the whole world.

Please provide a quote where Christ's birth, a union of man and God, reconciled humanity. None will be forthcoming.

Lots of people believe God sent His Son into the world to become the propitiation for our sins.

 

[Van]

“[Christ Jesus], Whom God purposed for a
Propitiatory shelter” (Romans 3:25)."

Just google it, you are embarrassing yourself. Spelling errors? Really. We are trying to discuss what Christ accomplished on the cross, and I am not sure you have anything but "taint so" to add.

And since you are unaware God places people into Christ, I am sure you pulled an Admiral Nelson when you studied Romans 6:3.

If you have something to add, please share it.

 

[JonC]

JonC it is time to end this discussion. First you conflate reconciling with reconciled, then you claim because Jesus was both man and God, that somehow reconciled humanity. LOL

There was a reason Christ suffered and died on the cross Jon, and it was to provide the means of reconciliation for the whole world.

Please provide a quote where Christ's birth, a union of man and God, reconciled humanity. None will be forthcoming.

Lots of people believe God sent His Son into the world to become the propitiation for our sins.

Brother, you have always been more than welcome to leave the discussion. I fear that you leave it with having conflated my words, but that is fine. And yes, humanity (human nature) was and is reconciled in Christ. Your ridicule of me and rejection of my position does not change the fact that it was indeed the view held by the early church and the view taught in Scripture. God taking on to himself humanity and bearing our sin is that reconciliation that makes it possible for men to be reconciled to God. Not reconciling sin, but reconciling man (human nature, humanity) which is the basis (Christ as the firstborn) of our reconciliation.

All I am saying is that mankind was reconciled to God IN Christ (Christ is the firstborn and our "hope") so that men could be reconciled to God through Christ. Do you deny this?

Hebrews 2:14-18 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

 

[JonC]

Again - to clear up any muddied water Van chose to toss this way and to restate what I believe:

What I am saying is that in Christ humanity was reconciled to God in such a way that Jesus is the firstborn of many brethern (Romans 8:29). Jesus IS man reconciled to God (and God to man), and the hope of our faith looks to His Resurrection (1 Peter 1:3; 1 Thes. 4:13-15).

If in Christ man and God are not reconciled then Jesus is not yet the firstborn. The Resurrection disproves Van's error, and Jesus is indeed the "last Adam".

 

[Martin Marprelate]

“[Christ Jesus], Whom God purposed for a
Propitiatory shelter” (Romans 3:25)."

Romans 3:25. ''Whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood through faith.' God is propitiated by the blood of Christ our Saviour shed upon the cross towards those whom He gave Him to save (John 6:38-39; 17:2; Hebrews 2:13b).

'Til on that cross, as Jesus died,
The wrath of God was satisfied-
For every sin on Him was laid;
Here in the death of Christ I live.'

And in what way do you see Romans 6:3 as meaning that God 'places' people into Christ. On what basis does He do it? Are you thinking of water baptism? Where does faith come into it? I am not (yet ) saying you are wrong; I'm just trying to understand what you're saying.

 

[HankD]

FWIW on occasion I chime in with the fact that we are progressing through the time continuum while God exists in the state of eternity.

Scripture prepositions and verb tenses are a challenge going from one state of being to the other.

Yes we have all we need with the word of God but it is limited to our condition, when we try to expand the here and now work of God's salvation of mankind attempting to apply the temporary with the eternal we are bound to be confused in the attempt to expand our limited vision to include the eternal glory of God.

e.g. How do we explain the concept of color to a blind person?
Or melody to a deaf person?

NKJV Ecclesiastes 8:17 then I saw all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. For though a man labors to discover it, yet he will not find it; moreover, though a wise man attempts to know it, he will not be able to find it.

So why not just enjoy what we have?
You don't need to take graduate courses in digestion, assimilation and absorption to enjoy a meal.

Just eat.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


HankD

 

[JonC]

FWIW on occasion I chime in with the fact that we are progressing through the time continuum while God exists in the state of eternity.

Scripture prepositions and verb tenses are a challenge going from one state of being to the other.

Yes we have all we need with the word of God but it is limited to our condition, when we try to expand the here and now work of God's salvation of mankind attempting to apply the temporary with the eternal we are bound to be confused in the attempt to expand our limited vision to include the eternal glory of God.

e.g. How do we explain the concept of color to a blind person?
Or melody to a deaf person?

NKJV Ecclesiastes 8:17 then I saw all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun. For though a man labors to discover it, yet he will not find it; moreover, though a wise man attempts to know it, he will not be able to find it.

So why not just enjoy what we have?
You don't need to take graduate courses in digestion, assimilation and absorption to enjoy a meal.

Just eat.

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:


HankD

Forgive my poor paraphrase, brother, but this is what I get from your words - God is God and I am not. He is able.

I believe it is vitally important to recognize that in Christ man and God is reconciled. I do not believe one can appreciate the Cross without realizing that fact. I do not believe one can look to the hope in Christ and His resurrection as pointing to ours without recognizing that fact. I truly do not understand how a man can be a Christian without recognizing that in Christ God reconciled the human condition to His divine love and therefore we can be reconciled. But there are simply things I do not understand. And still I accept them.

 

[HankD]

Forgive my poor paraphrase, brother, but this is what I get from your words - God is God and I am not. He is able.

I believe it is vitally important to recognize that in Christ man and God is reconciled. I do not believe one can appreciate the Cross without realizing that fact. I do not believe one can look to the hope in Christ and His resurrection as pointing to ours without recognizing that fact. I truly do not understand how a man can be a Christian without recognizing that in Christ God reconciled the human condition to His divine love and therefore we can be reconciled. But there are simply things I do not understand. And still I accept them.

When I was in my 30's (Long time ago) I ended up in the psychiatric ward (Aha! we thought so!).

Jesus delivered me with a simple passage of scripture.

Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.

HankD

 

[Van]

Brother, you have always been more than welcome to leave the discussion. I fear that you leave it with having conflated my words, but that is fine. And yes, humanity (human nature) was and is reconciled in Christ. Your ridicule of me and rejection of my position does not change the fact that it was indeed the view held by the early church and the view taught in Scripture. God taking on to himself humanity and bearing our sin is that reconciliation that makes it possible for men to be reconciled to God. Not reconciling sin, but reconciling man (human nature, humanity) which is the basis (Christ as the firstborn) of our reconciliation.

All I am saying is that mankind was reconciled to God IN Christ (Christ is the firstborn and our "hope") so that men could be reconciled to God through Christ. Do you deny this?

Hebrews 2:14-18 Since therefore the children share in flesh and blood, he himself likewise partook of the same things, that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death, that is, the devil, and deliver all those who through fear of death were subject to lifelong slavery. For surely it is not angels that he helps, but he helps the offspring of Abraham. Therefore he had to be made like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For because he himself has suffered when tempted, he is able to help those who are being tempted.

I said you believe Christ has, past tense reconciled humanity. I say scripture refutes that view.
Next you conflate humanity and human nature. They are not the same thing.
For sure I reject you position, reconciling does not mean reconciled.
You have repeated and repeated the claim humanity must be reconciled for individuals to be reconciled. I asked you to support this claim because on its face it is ludicrous. You have not provided any scripture to support this claim.
I have denied that the incarnation reconciled the whole world to God. These arguments come across as someone throwing one argument after another against a wall, hoping something will stick.
Unless someone undergoes the washing of regeneration they are not reconciled.